Session 2.16 for S2E12

Phillip Menzies

Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
Questions for next session due to air on Friday the 16th of December 2016 are:
  • The Valar - How do we handle the Valar and their deliberations about Melkor breaking his parole? Do we do a flashback?
  • The Brothers - How do we handle the reconciliation between Fingolfin and Feanor, what is the significance for each one of them and how do we convey that?
  • Melkor & Ungoliant - Do we reveal Melkor's real intentions now? Is this the right time to change the narrative point of view? How do we depict Ungoliant?
 
I really feel like we're causing problems by departing from the text here. We don't need to show a flashback to what the Valar are doing if we have them summon all involved parties to Valmar as they do in the Silmarillion. We can still show elvish irritation with what they feel is an internal matter, Finwe can still hold himself "unkinged" for this. In fact, Fingolfin's statement that he will release his brother might even be more in defiance to the Valar than out of love for Feanor. After all, when they find that it is all Melkor's fault, that's actually their fault for releasing him.

My position on the reveal of Melkor's intentions to the audience has been that the longer we put it off, the greater the departure from the text will be. It forced the debasement of Fingolfin's character in episode 10 because we couldn't show just how strong Melkor's disinformation campaign was, and here it is causing us to resort to clumsy storytelling in order to show that the Valar are not callous fools. In the next episode, it is causing the question of whether or not the Valar care enough to tell the elves that the source of nearly all evil in Arda (thus far) is on the loose and looking to harm people.
 
Yes I think we can reveal Melkor's guilt as early as in episode 10 and still maintain the road we've taken. To me it's not essential that the Valar summon all involved parties to Valmar (but I'm not against it) as long as all parties are present when Fëanor is banished. At the banishing, everyone (Noldor, Valar, viewers) should tell or be told that Melkor has been talking in a way that has led to the unrest of the Noldor and Fëanor's transgressions. The degree of Melkor's guilt will be unclear and the Valar will say that they want to question him. The Noldor hear this and understand the implications of it to a limited degree. The Valar banish Fëanor regardless of Melkor's involvement, which makes Fëanor feel mistreated and Finwë feel unkinged. They leave for Formenos and do it in a prideful manner, asking to be left alone in exile. In episode 11, we are in Formenos, initially seeing the stronhold being built while some family members are in conflict over what's been said and done and others are making diplomatic attempts. Maybe a Vala appears at one time and checks them out (Oromë?) but Fëanor wants no contact with them. Then Melkor appears and gets the door in the face, and after that he leaves Valinor. This happens rather early on, pehaps after two years of the Trees of the exile.

In episode 12 some time will have passed. We could show preparations for the feast and maybe Vanyar talking to the Noldor in Tirion. It should be made clear that the Valar have evidence that Melkor has left Valinor, maybe left Arda altogether, through the Doors of Night or something. He's really gone. Maybe Námo says he won't be gone forever, but things should really feel safe until we see Melkor finding Ungoliant.
 
Once again, I do object to exposition in lieu of actually showing things taking place. Couldn't that scene just as easily come at the beginning of Episode 11 and show the elves giving testimony which leads to the conclusion of Melkor being behind everything? The elves will believe that it's all over and the Valar then announce that Feanor is banished for his act of violence. Finwe protests that he is unkinged, Fingolfin even speaks up, saying that he releases Feanor, for his part.

Episode 11 is going to be bare enough as it is, ending as it does with the Feanor-Melkor confrontation.

This would allow us to make the episode more elf-centric, with the Valar search for Melkor as a B plot.
 
Pushing the sentencing from E10 to E11 would make the drawing of the sword a kind of a cliffhanger and let that scene get full focus and power, which would be really good. I'm definitely for that.
 
Regarding Melkor's guilt and status I think that the best course of action could be to just make it clear that the Valar understand that the unrest of the Noldor and Fëanor's transgressions are connected to things Melkor has said. Since he hasn't really lied though it should not be clear yet that he's had a master plan all along. The Valar want to question him and he's in trouble, but the situation isn't completely obvious. Well, in a way it is but part of the goodness of the Valar is that they give people the benefit of a doubt and condemn no one unless there's good evidence. In this case there's evidence against Fëanor but the evidence against Melkor is just indications. So it's logical to banish Fëanor. It's also logical for Fëanor to lay all blame on Melkor and even if he does not realise that Melkor has had this plan he thinks he's a bad apple and would like to see him punished. He's not afraid of him, he thinks he's above him.
 
Fingolfin has to accept an apology that is not offered to him. That is a significant thing, and means that he values healing the divisions in his family and the rifts in the Noldor more than he values being right or winning or getting his own just deserts. He is the wronged party - Fëanor publicly threatened him at swordpoint. And while (maybe) no blood was drawn (or a scratch?) the implied threat that Fëanor *could* have taken his life was huge. He is setting that aside, and acknowledging that, as the eldest child, Fëanor should have the first place. For someone who was proud and angry in the lead-up to that altercation, this action shows remarkable humility.

Considering there is no real succession precedent here, it might not be obvious to everyone that Finwë stepping down (for whatever reason) would automatically put Fëanor-the-eldest in charge. Surely the Noldor have something worked out about this, but it's an untested rule and perhaps there has even been disagreement over the issue. Assuming that 'male primogeniture' is the established law of the land seems to be a mistake. Why would it be?

But regardless of what their rules are, the current situation is that the banishment of Fëanor and willing abdication of Finwë has made Fingolfin de facto King of the Noldor for 12 years. His decision to relinquish that *has* to be in part to prove Fëanor's accusations wrong - see, I never wanted to usurp anything! can we be friends now? It also may very well be related to the Noldor viewpoint that the Valar have overstepped their bounds and interfered with the 'private' business of the Noldor, or even the Noldor royal family. Finwë is king and father of the two disagreeing parties...but the Valar decided that Fëanor would be banished, going over his head. Fingolfin isn't just healing his relationship with his brother - he's restoring his father's authority as well. Finwë chose to support Fëanor, so Fingolfin will as well.

But regardless of how we parse it, Fingolfin choosing to not only set aside his grievance, but also acknowledge his elder half-brother's rightful authority is a huge step from where he was at the end of Episode 10. So, we're going to have devote some time early in episode 12 to show how Fingolfin is dealing with kingship and what leads up to the 'You will lead, I will follow' declaration.
 
I feel that Melkor meeting up with Ungoliant can be a 'reveal' at the end of the episode - that we end with the two of them standing on the Pelori looking down on Valinor. We can then take a step back in episode 13, and start there with him coming to her lair and making their bargain, and then showing their attack.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Once again, I do object to exposition in lieu of actually showing things taking place. Couldn't that scene just as easily come at the beginning of Episode 11 and show the elves giving testimony which leads to the conclusion of Melkor being behind everything? The elves will believe that it's all over and the Valar then announce that Feanor is banished for his act of violence. Finwe protests that he is unkinged, Fingolfin even speaks up, saying that he releases Feanor, for his part.

Episode 11 is going to be bare enough as it is, ending as it does with the Feanor-Melkor confrontation.

This would allow us to make the episode more elf-centric, with the Valar search for Melkor as a B plot.
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I agree... I hear Corey's reasoning that it would be "artistically appealing" to have Episode 11 take place entirely in Formenos... there's just not enough that happens there. I mean really, are we going to have Feanor and Nerdanel have the same argument five times to pad out the episode?

I also think we can get a similar justification of the Noldor viewpoint if we have them think "this is all Melkor's fault, why are they punishing Feanor?" rather than "do the Valar even care? What are they even doing?"

MithLuin said:
I feel that Melkor meeting up with Ungoliant can be a 'reveal' at the end of the episode - that we end with the two of them standing on the Pelori looking down on Valinor. We can then take a step back in episode 13, and start there with him coming to her lair and making their bargain, and then showing their attack.
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I like this, but just in case we decide to show their meeting in this episode... how should we depict it?

One awkward question stands out to me in particular: how sexy/seductive should Ungoliant appear in this episode? We had her be (vaguely sexually) attracted to Nessa in Season 1, but we know she has offspring in the forms of Shelob and her siblings after mating with "other foul creatures of spider form" so she (presumably) has heterosexual impulses, as well. And, given her obsession with light, and Melkor's association with/possessiveness of light, would she try to ensnare him, as well?
(I'm wincing even as I type this -- this is so... ugh... I really don't want this to be a GoT-esque sequence, but the word always associated with Ungoliant is "lust". It's... there, and we have to handle it.)
 
If we keep her in spider form, her lustful appetites likely won't read as seductive. She can be eyeing Melkor up as a potential meal, and even pounce on him...if we'd like.
 
Marielle said:
I agree... I hear Corey's reasoning that it would be "artistically appealing" to have Episode 11 take place entirely in Formenos... there's just not enough that happens there. I mean really, are we going to have Feanor and Nerdanel have the same argument five times to pad out the episode?

I also think we can get a similar justification of the Noldor viewpoint if we have them think "this is all Melkor's fault, why are they punishing Feanor?" rather than "do the Valar even care? What are they even doing?"


I like this, but just in case we decide to show their meeting in this episode... how should we depict it?

One awkward question stands out to me in particular: how sexy/seductive should Ungoliant appear in this episode? We had her be (vaguely sexually) attracted to Nessa in Season 1, but we know she has offspring in the forms of Shelob and her siblings after mating with "other foul creatures of spider form" so she (presumably) has heterosexual impulses, as well. And, given her obsession with light, and Melkor's association with/possessiveness of light, would she try to ensnare him, as well?
(I'm wincing even as I type this -- this is so... ugh... I really don't want this to be a GoT-esque sequence, but the word always associated with Ungoliant is "lust". It's... there, and we have to handle it.)
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I always thought the sin associated with Ungoliant was "gluttony", considering she's always looking for something to consume.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
I always thought the sin associated with Ungoliant was "gluttony", considering she's always looking for something to consume.
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That is maybe the right word in modern English... but Tolkien over and over again uses the word "lust". Granted, he's using it in the old sense, from back when "lechery" was the best word to describe what modern English means by "lust". Even so, I don't think "gluttony" quite encompasses Ungoliant's motivations. She doesn't just gorge herself on light as if it's chocolate... there's a possessiveness, an all-consuming desire that seems to surpass gluttony.

MithLuin said:
If we keep her in spider form, her lustful appetites likely won't read as seductive. She can be eyeing Melkor up as a potential meal, and even pounce on him...if we'd like.
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Did we show her in spider form in Season 1? If so, that solves the issue.
 
Marielle said:
I agree... I hear Corey's reasoning that it would be "artistically appealing" to have Episode 11 take place entirely in Formenos... there's just not enough that happens there. I mean really, are we going to have Feanor and Nerdanel have the same argument five times to pad out the episode?
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Hmmm. I don't think Episode 11 is as empty as you fear, but I do agree it has a limited scope. So, here's all the stuff we can have happen in Episode 11, while keeping to the 'focus on Formenos' idea.

Begin where the last episode left off, with the Banishment being decreed by the Valar. Then, we have Finwë's outrage that he has been 'unkinged' and his decision to go with Fëanor into exile. This leaves Indis and Fingolfin to rule in Tirion in his stead.

The building of Formenos. After all, it didn't exist before this...right?

Nerdanel's reaction - we show the audience that she is far from pleased with her husband's actions, though she still supports him in general...just in a 'what were you thinking, you idiot?' way at this point.

Indis' visit to Formenos. We see Fëanor be a jerk to her, but let her in. She updates Finwë on what has been happening in Tirion in their absence. Finwë emphasizes that he will not leave Formenos until Fëanor is pardoned. Nerdanel's reaction to Fëanor's behavior (again).

A messenger from the Valar comes to Formenos to warn Fëanor about Melkor being on the loose, but said messenger is not let in the door and is unable to deliver the message?

Fëanor's growing paranoia. He mistrusts the Valar, obviously, but he very much distrusts anyone outside the walls of Formenos, and his suspicions fall on those within the walls, as well. Words like 'betrayal' come easily to him.

Fëanor trains his sons in how to use swords and fight...and he's very serious about this. This is not a game. Stockpiling of weapons, and the building of the vault at Formenos to store the Silmarils.

Fingon comes out to Formenos to visit, but knowing he's unlikely to get a warm welcome, throws rocks at Maedhros' window until he notices him, and then the two of them ride off on horses and discuss the state of family politics :p

Edit: Young Celebrimbor spends time with his grandfather?

Huan languishing in the background.

Melkor's visit. Fëanor talks with him from the doorway, but does not let him in. The rest of the place is on 'high alert' fortress mode, and then Fëanor shuts the door in Melkor's face. Nerdanel observes this conversation, and follows up with Fëanor afterwards. We see that she has been brought around to accept his actions, more or less.
 
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"theirs not to reason why, theirs but to do and die"

I understand the reasoning of making the episode Formenos-centric, but I also think that we can't ignore what is going on in the rest of Valinor either. While I frown on exposition between characters as a way of advancing the plot, I frown more on relying on flashbacks.

I like the idea of Fingon and Maedhros meeting for a discussion of what's going on (although my eyebrows raise on the "soft, what light through yonder window breaks?" imagery :rolleyes: ) and maybe that's how we advance the plot away from Formenos. Fingo telling Maedhros that Fingolfin has reluctantly assumed the leadership of the Noldor in Tirion (and very consciously avoiding any hint of acting as or being called King) and how he is doing well but absolutely hates it.

Another moment may be the messenger from the Valar. The messenger appears at the door requesting to speak with Finwe. Maedhros is the one who answers the door and sends someone to relay the message and while they wait, he asks for information as to what's going on with the Valar's hunt for Melkor (perhaps the messenger {Eonwe? Olorin??} and Maedhros are acquaintances). And then Feanor appears and haughtily proclaims that Finwe will respond to no one who usurps his authority and dismisses the messenger unheard. That way, we (meaning the audience) get the message that the Valar are relaying to everyone and at the same time we see just how far Feanor has moved into jerk-phase.

This also sets up the confrontation between Melkor and Feanor in that Feanor has already proclaimed his disdain for the Valar. It also shows that regardless of what Melkor says, in Feanor's eyes, the very fact that he is a Vala makes him just as guilty by association.
 
Dulce et decorum est....

Haha, yeah, there was a reason I put a :p on the Fingon and Maedhros idea I slipped in there. The reality is that their friendship isn't going to look like modern friendship, and neither of them is ever going to get married*, so..... for better or worse, they are each other's most important person, and just because we're not going to show them in a 'romantic' context at any point doesn't mean the parallels aren't there. But I can admit that the throwing rocks at the window scene is probably too much. Better to do something 'elvish' like have Maedhros just know he is there as he lurks outside Formenos.

*Alternately, we could make Fingon Gil-galad's father, so the surprise marriage of the High King of the Noldor will at least throw a question mark into that. But that was one decision in the published Silmarillion that Christopher Tolkien considered to be a mistake. Gil-galad seems to have been meant for the house of Finarfin.
 
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Once again, this is all solved with sticking to the text and handling the hearing in which Fëanor is banished at the beginning of episode 11. It gives all of the characters the information they are supposed to know, and tells our story more efficiently without resorting to exposition or flashback (except the exposition of Melkor's role in all this, a problem once again created by departing from the text).

That would allow episode 12 to focus on what is happening -now-, the temporary reconciliation of Fëanor and Fingolfin, the alliance of Melkor and Ungoliant, and the continued disintegration of Noldor-Valar relations instead of retreading the past with clunky story-telling.
 
My concern is how the information that is happening during the events of Episode 11 are relayed to the audience. If we say that Formenos-centric means 75% of the episode takes place in Formenos while the remaining 25% can show what's happening, then I'm cool. But if Formenos-centric means 100% in Formenos (with the exception of the initial banishment), then there has to be some way to relay the information on what's going on in Valinor during the 12 years of banishment.
 
I think that works: I do think we can focus on telling a linear story about Feanor's point of view, with a few asides to show that, while it's understandable, it's wrong.*

*I disagree with execs here: I don't think that showing the Valar acting invalidates the Noldor point of view, so long as we create a distinction between what the elves see and what the audience knows. Tolkien used such dramatic irony quite well, so why can't we?
 
Ray Burns said:
My concern is how the information that is happening during the events of Episode 11 are relayed to the audience. If we say that Formenos-centric means 75% of the episode takes place in Formenos while the remaining 25% can show what's happening, then I'm cool. But if Formenos-centric means 100% in Formenos (with the exception of the initial banishment), then there has to be some way to relay the information on what's going on in Valinor during the 12 years of banishment.
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Options:

  • Episode 11 starts with the Banishment, and then takes place entirely at Formenos, with some visitors to bring outside news. The advantage would be to emphasize the isolation and bunker-mentality of Fëanor. Episode 12 would then start in Tirion, showing us whatever we need from there, obviously happening concurrent with the banishment, and leading up to the Feast (2nd half of the episode).

  • Episode 11 starts in Formenos, and we cut to Valmar/Tirion as needed throughout the episode. There may be some non-linear storytelling to explain what Finwë is doing in Formenos and what the Valar are up to. Make the audience wonder about those things before we explain them.

  • Episode 11 is entirely elf-perspective (25% Tirion and 75% Formenos), but no Valar perspective, as that is saved for Episode 12. Episode 12 would then show what the Valar have been doing to search for Melkor, with the implication that this has been ongoing. So, no flashback, but a delayed reveal to the audience. 'Still no luck?' 'No, no sign of him anywhere. Has Varda seen any hint of his whereabouts?' type of dialogue.

  • Other???

I realize that non-linear storytelling can be complicated. The Firefly episode 'Out of Gas' has 3 separate timelines running throughout the show, starting with a shot of the climax, and then going back to explain how things got to that point, while also showing flashbacks of how the crew came together in the first place. It falls in the middle of the season, and certainly the other episodes don't do that. There are some Star Trek: The Next Generation episodes (typically dealing with 'temporal anomalies') that use similar recursive story telling, with repetitions of events or out-of-order storytelling. It can be done well, but there's no guarantee the audience won't find it confusing or tedious to hear the story that way. But I think that there's not really a problem with that. But then....Boondock Saints is one of my favorite films, and that handles the line between detective and criminal blurring by making use of non-linear storytelling in a somewhat amusing way. I don't think we should do it all of the time, but I see no reason to shy away from an out-of-order sequence of events in our storytelling. We're already doing that with the entire Sindar storyline to follow Tolkien's example, so....



Generally, films that try to do this can get overly complicated and are trying to make the audience work hard to figure out what is going on. There's either a story-within-a-story (Inception), or complex mystery, or multiple endings, or something like that. We're not going for Memento or The Butterfly Effect here. Just Pulp Fiction levels of intercut out-of-order storytelling is fine.
 
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