Session 3.11 - S3 Ep 6 Green Elves

Discussion in 'Episode Questions' started by MithLuin, Nov 10, 2017.

  1. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Next session will be held on Dec. 1st.

    1. What happens in the next episode? Our outline is fairly open-ended here.
    2. What role do the Green Elves play before their battle in Episode 9?

    3. What does Treebeard do in Beleriand?

    4. Do the dwarves interact with the newcomers?

    5. What is happening in the Angband storyline?
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  2. HaakonTheWhite

    HaakonTheWhite New Member

    We will certainly have to deal a lot with the Green Elves and their appearance and the expectations they and the Sindar have. I think they should be rough and primitive. The Ents will be interested in the forests and perhaps not in the dealings of the elves at first. So we might see them and think wow that’s Treebeard and what will he do, it’ll be great to see him fight Boldog, but he might just be distracted by the forests of Ossiriand - and when he fights later on it is after considerable...consideration.
    Nicholas Palazzo likes this.
  3. Brian Dimmick

    Brian Dimmick Active Member

    Have we discussed why the Green elves are coming to Beleriand? Are they fleeing something, like the fathers of Men later, or just wandering? Are we going to hear anything about Lenwe?

    We can depict them as a bit rough and primitive, although the Sindar aren't all that "sophisticated" at this point. Except for the Havens it seems all of the elves in Beleriand are widely scattered and wander quite a bit. I think we could portray them as peaceable, very focused on the care of the forests, and somewhat aloof from the other elves. Maybe Thingol sends messengers to offer them sanctuary in Doriath, as he did for the Falathrim, and they aren't that interested..
    Haakon likes this.
  4. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    I think we should consider the possibility that the Dwarves - or some of them - may have met the Green Elves already. The Firebeards of Nogrod could have exits to the east of the mountains. They could have met the elves and, well...we would have to decide if they liked each other.
  5. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    I think the PubSil is pretty clear about this: the Green elves seek protection because they have had a hard time in the East, attacked by fell beasts and whatever (orcs? Maybe not) and have heard about the mighty king Thingol and his peaceful kingdom.

    This could be used to fill out the story. Thingol is happy to see the newcomers and wants them to join him to fight. This will take some convincing since the Green elves didn’t really come for that.

    So I agree with you Brian that Thingol invites them to Doriath.
    But what’s the process leading to them declining?
    We discussed in the Politics thread some time ago about what kind of society the Green Elves have. Of course, after the death of Denethor they elect no new leader, so that sounds egalitarian. And I think they have something of that already when they arrive in Beleriand. They should have moots. Denethor may have some extra vote or veto or something. I think that may be the difference from later on - he ultimately decides to go against a small majority that won’t go to war. After some drawn out argumentation he decides that they shall fight the orcs. Maybe he hasn’t really spoken up until then and then makes this great speech which turns everyone in favour of fighting. After the terrible battle they decide not to elect a new leader, out of respect for Denethor but also because they feel the system with one leader doesn’t work for them.

    EDIT: If the Green Elves have a moot to decide what to do it's of course important to show it in a way that doesn't resemble the Entmoot too much.
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
    Faelivrin likes this.
  6. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    I like the idea of giving the Green Elves a unique form of organization. They are going to remain fairly aloof from most of the residents of Beleriand over the course of the 1st Age. We should either show them being extremely distrustful of strangers now, or getting burned very, very badly.

    We need to give them some story arc over the next few episodes, other than just 'coming to Beleriand' and 'friends of ents'. And they do wind up choosing the side of the Sindar in the Doriath - dwarf feud...but of course Beren is living with them when that happens, so.
    Nicholas Palazzo likes this.
  7. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    It seems we can agree that the Green Elves leave their homelands because a) those lands have become unsafe and b) they’ve heard about the peaceful kingdom of Thingol.

    I suggest that they have met the Firebeards before. What happened in that encounter?

    Let’s assume that the Green Elves also have met the Longbeards. Let’s assume that they have mixed feelings about Dwarves but lean towards the positive about the Longbeards and lean towards the negative about the Firebeards. The Dwarves will have cut down trees and maybe even aimed their axes against an Ent or two. So when they enter Beleriand, the first people the Green elves meet are people they mistrust. And Thingol wants them to join an alliance with those Dwarves.
  8. Brian Dimmick

    Brian Dimmick Active Member

    While “friends of ents” is not a sufficient story line to carry the green elves through this season, I would have it play a significant part. I think that we emphasized how Lenwe’s feeling that he and his people had found their purpose in discovering the ents influenced the decision to abandon the journey to Valinor, and that should still play a big part in their identity. They are not coming into Beleriand seeking a new realm to rule; they just want to be left alone to do what they do. They don’t have much hierarchy in their society and may have only very vague notions of kingship (they will follow a leader like Denethor in a time of change and crisis, and will mourn his death greatly, but don’t feel the need for an institution of kingship). This makes them very ill-suited to fighting the wars in Beleriand, and predisposes them to retreat and become secretive when the wars go badly.

    The green elves would have had some contact with dwarves, but I don’t think either side would have left a very strong impression on the other. The green elves don’t have much need for trade or buying weapons and armor, so wouldn’t seek out regular interactions with the dwarves. We don’t want the dwarves to have such a strong impression of elves based on meeting the green elves that it colors their impressions of the Sindar when they meet them or renders that meeting less of a surprise.
    Faelivrin likes this.
  9. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    I wasn’t proposing intense contact between Green Elves and Dwarves, and yes - why would they trade in weapons? So I wouldn’t suggest that. But it’s a fact that the PubSil says the Dwarves tell Thingol that his kin (Lenwë’s people) are troubled by fell beasts, as are the Dwarves, so the two peoples have probably met briefly on such occasions. Also, the Dwarves probably have cut down trees and this will not have gone unnoticed by the elves. As elves - the Green Elves in particular - don’t like this, it will have affected the way they perceive the Dwarves.
  10. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

  11. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    I think it is true that the dwarves of the Blue Mountains are aware of the Green Elves before the Sindar are. And while the Sindar may greet them as long-lost kin, the dwarves and Green Elves are likely much cooler towards one another. If we are going to show elves and dwarves not 'getting' one another (without hostilities), these groups are probably a good start there.

    While I am aware of the canonical reason for the Green Elves migrating west, do we have more to the story? Is there are particular event (the death of Lenwe) that would drive them from their home? Or are the ents restless to explore more new lands, and the Green Elves are tagging along? Or...something. What stories have they heard of Beleriand? Of Thingol (who they knew) and Melian (who they didn't)?
  12. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    Are the Ents looking for the Entwives? When do they lose each other exactly?

    I think Lenwë should be dead, killed by a werewolf or a vampire or something.
  13. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    The Ents and the Entwives should still be together, though their very different personalities can be apparent.

    The Entwives are living in what will later become the Brown Lands (near Mordor) when the Ents last hear of them. So, it's not a First Age story for the ents to lose the entwives. As for when the Ents and Entwives go their separate ways...we can determine how and when we want to make that happen. After all, they will be 'living apart' long before they lose track of one another.

    But Treebeard's song suggests that his wife Fimbrethil was with him when he wandered in Beleriand.
  14. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    Good, so we should see Treebeard and Fimbrethil in Ossiriand. Maybe we can begin an arch which leads to Fimbrethil leaving? (Not necessarily in this season)
    MithLuin likes this.
  15. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    In some ways, the Treebeard/Fimbrethil story will parallel the Feanor/Nerdanel story. But in the First Age, all I want to see is the Entwives' interest in 'gardening' being in contrast to the ents' interest in 'forestry.'
  16. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    Yeah... I think we could have a problem if the Entwives are still around when the Men arrive or they will perhaps have reason to stay around and help with farming.
  17. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Treebeard's lore of living creatures includes Men, but I'm not sure how much interaction Men and Ents will have? So maybe the Entwives take a shine to the Younger Children while the Ents prefer the Elder.....
  18. Haerangil

    Haerangil Well-Known Member

    The ents live not only in one region when they come to beleriand... They seem to have strifed all over eriador, but treebeard remembers nan tathren, ossiriand, dorthonion and neldoreth... So i guess the ents do wander allover beleriand once they get there. They do not settle.
    Faelivrin likes this.
  19. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    I hear you but my point is that the Entwives would probably stay in Beleriand if they are around when Men appear. So I’d like to make up a story in which they leave before the arrival of the Men.
  20. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    Yes but we need intentional migration rather than random or habitual moving around. Unless we want to make them look unpredictable.

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