Session 3.11 - S3 Ep 6 Green Elves

Well... They like trees. And other plants. They will wander wherever the vegetation appeals to them so i don't see them in the plains, the coast or the less habitable north. But also not in doriath maybe, because of the girdle?

But everywhere else slow wandering ents could have been encountered...
 
What if the Green Elves and the Firebeards have some sort of conflict or won't get along, so at the same time as the orcs pour into East Beleriand and Thingol wants them all to attack or at least talk about how to deal with the orcs, he has to manage a conflict within the alliance that hinders effective communication? And then, later, when the Sindar do attack, the others join but in a way that's not totally organised, which in part leads to the death of Denethor. (Well, it's the armour also.)
 
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Haakon said:
What if the Green Elves and the Firebeards have some sort of conflict or won't get along, so at the same time as the orcs pour into East Beleriand and Thingol wants them all to attack or at least talk about how to deal with the orcs, he has to manage a conflict within the alliance that hinders effective communication? And then, later, when the Sindar do attack, the others join but in a way that's not totally organised, which in part leads to the death of Denethor. (Well, it's the armour also.)
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That's an idea, but we should think about whether we want to introduce elf/dwarf conflict this early. We know it's inevitable, but I'm not sure we want to present it as inevitable... if that makes any sense.

We could, in contrast, have their story be whether or not they'll fight at all. They did come over to escape danger in the first place, didn't they? Maybe their temptation is to keep running, never stand up and face the evil. Denethor could convince his people to stand, and we could either have them achieve some good thing (saving Luthien and Daeron, perhaps?) before they're overwhelmed or leave it ambiguous whether or not they made the right choice.
 
The impression that I would take from extrapolating any previous relations between the dwarves and the Nandor/Avari, is that they are beneath the dwarves' notice. They have nothing the dwarves want. They don't build anything. From the dwarvish perspective, they are simple savages who live out in the woods.
 
Fair enough, and I'm not sure we want to make that explicit on screen, yet. Elf/dwarf tension has become a fantasy cliche, an assumed fact that needs little to explain it... but when we get to the discord between the two races, I want to have explained it, to have given each side nuanced and understandable positions, even if the narrative or audience comes down on one "side" or the other. A pre-existing "primordial" tension between dwarves and Green Elves, or conflict created in the first half of an episode doesn't appeal to me.

Now, dwarves and Ents, on the other hand... we do have textual indication to make that a primordial conflict. If we could get Aule's "and yet they will have need of wood" in a dwarf's mouth, to Treebeard, I'd be happy.
 
Ok so we wait with the elf-dwarf conflict and let their differences work over time onscreen.

I can accept showing the Green elves as indifferent to the Dwarves and in that case I think the Dwarves should show equal lack of interest in the Green elves. This means that when Thingol wants to coordinate an attack with his two allies, he won’t find them working together. The Dwarves will not expect the Lindi to be particularly skilled fighters - if fighters at all - and the Lindi will probably wonder why Thingol has to collaborate with the Gonnhirrim. At the same time, the Green elves will probably be undecided on whether to fight or not. After all, they came to Beleriand to get the great king Thingol’s protection.
 
One of the things we talked about in the most recent script discussion (we're a bit behind on episode 4), was that the dwarves and the elves each have reasons to look down upon the other (though in the elves' case it is not merely figurative). The dwarves see the elves as uncivilized. During their first encounter, the dwarves can't comprehend the elves' claim to Beleriand. After all, there is absolutely no evidence that the land is theirs. The elves, on the other hand, consider the dwarves beneath them (not only literally, but...) in appearance and manner as well. The dwarves seem to have little to no regard for things like ... grass, trees, insects, all of the things that the elves know are critical to the ecosystem (especially one in which most of the plants are a non-renewable resource due to the "sleep of Yavanna").
 
I believe that's the way to go for us. Green elves and naugrim are not in conflict and they do not dislike each other in a particular way, but they are different. They do not really understand each other or get along too well. Even the sindar need some time to get on common terms with the naugrim and when it actually happens their common ground is art and love for making things. Architecture , beautiful crafts and letters or written word.

The lindi are savages , they don't have any of these so they can find little common ground with the dearves ( or literally anyone else, be it mortal men or more civilized eldar... But they share a lot with ents!)
 
Good. This makes me think of the parallel to the Frame I suggested earlier (no don't look in this thread, it was a while ago). When Thingol gets the news that his kin have come to Beleriand, he is thrilled to see them. But when they meet he is a bit confused or disappointed because they are more savage than he expected. It's like when Estel comes to the Ranger camp.
 
Haakon said:
the Entwives would probably stay in Beleriand if they are around when Men appear. So I’d like to make up a story in which they leave before the arrival of the Men.
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I can't see the Entwives being that interested in Men. Sure, the Entwives might be willing to pass on a bit of gardening lore if any of them ask politely enough (which probably takes a couple of days ;) but they're not going to take those hasty critters under their wings, so to speak.

I think it's more likely that they would stay around to keep watch on these possibly dangerous interlopers -- but that's not their style, really.
 
I hear you. I guess I’m trying to pull their tendencies to the extreme to make their story clear. But I’m sure you’re right this time, it’s not like they are obsessed with Men.
 
I think that we have to have some idea about what has happened to Lenwë, even if it’s just that he has stayed behind. Thingol will ask Denethor about him.
I suggest that Denethor doesn’t know for sure, but from what he says we should guess that Lenwë is dead. Alternatively Denethor could firmly believe that his father is alive, of course. But we never see Lenwë again and I think a touch of loss to the Green Elves is good. They are somehow lost, and beginning to lose their sense of purpose, which was strong when they left the great Journey.
 
MithLuin said:
What is happening in the Angband storyline?
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I've been missing Morgoth a little. What's his role at this time? He's been pouring his hatred into orcs, what happens after that, is he resting? It seems Sauron is doing all the planning, doesn't the great Vala use his head at all? ;)
Does he just say to Sauron, 'Let Beleriand burn!' or what? Also, what's Gothmog doing?

The Eastern Host under Boldog should begin to occupy East Beleriand in this episode (and fully occupy it in e8?), and we should see Sauron and his host of werewolves and vampires exit Angband (to be able to attack the Falas in e7).
 
Haakon said:
Maybe Treebeard could have some effect on Ossiriand, like Melian on Doriath? Could the Ents somehow lift the Sleep of Yavanna?
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We desperately need this. Or more accurately, the dwarves do. Until the sleep of Yavanna is lifted, they are laying waste to the forests around them for fuel, because trees are currently a non-renewable resource.
 
MY proposal was that morgoth is now beginning to " take roots", to melt himself and his energy with/ into arda. Question is how to depict this? It should be clear that morgoth has a plan... Something dire has started to happen and time is running up. This should become more and more clear with every session as time passes
 
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That’s a fascinating idea. I’m not sure how to depict that, though. I kind of connect it with him leaving Angband less and less often. But then it would not really begin until later, after the death of Fingolfin.
 
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