Session 3.11 - S3 Ep 6 Green Elves

Discussion in 'Episode Questions' started by MithLuin, Nov 10, 2017.

  1. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Active Member

    Well, it's awkward to discuss anything involving plant and animal survival in a world with no Sun, so perhaps it's good not to draw any attention to it.

    I think Galadriel was speaking of the inevitable final fading of Lothlorien. Once she finally rejects the Ring, she knows what Elrond had already accepted -- either Sauron will conquer their realms at last, or they will have to sacrifice everything they struggleed for millennia to protect in order to finally defeat him. She cannot continue to defend Lothlorien either from Sauron or from Time, and she finally admits it. But I think that Lorien had a normal spring and summer in 3018, same as every previous year at least since Galadriel arrived with Nenya.

    Possibly there will immediately be no spring for the mellyrn. Their life cycle, what with keeping their broad leaves all winter, is not at all appropriate for central Europe and they'll probably die of thirst pretty quickly once Galadriel can no longer do... whatever she was doing. I suspect she made the forest skip over winter, and filled it with some essence of the winterless life of Aman.

    (Then again, mellyrn managed to grow in Gondolin too, so... I dunno. Ulmo blessed it with mild weather? Keeping their leaves all winter was Galadriel's doing and not inherent to the species? Tolkien was not a biologist. In any case, mellyrn are from Aman and Eressea (who brought them to Gondolin, I wonder?) and like the athelas they don't fully belong in Middle-earth, or are doomed to fade away.)

    Arwen arrived in winter either because it was literally winter in the whole northern hemisphere (she did die late in the year, I think) or figuratively because the forest was fading and the mellyrn were dying.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  2. Haerangil

    Haerangil Well-Known Member

    The linear storyline will cause trouble unless we decide to have a beren& luthien season, a tuor season, a turin season and an earendel season, all separate, but with some characters appearing in all these.

    But i don't think that problem will come up until season 5, as i expect seafon 4 will be about the early men ( i guess?)
    Faelivrin likes this.
  3. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Season 4 will cover all the material from the Rising of the Sun to aftermath of the Battle of Sudden Flame. Ie, it begins with Fingon's rescue of Maedhros, and ends with Fingolfin's duel against Morgoth. It will include the introduction of Men, the story of Aredhel, Eol, and Maeglin, as well as the love story between Aegnor and Andreth. There will be at least two major battles. That's the first 455 years of the First Age, no big deal...

    Concerning the entwives leaving Beleriand being tied to the arrival of Morgoth - I think we can still do that in spirit. While the ents and entwives (at first) wander freely through Beleriand enjoying its beauty, evil things begin to infiltrate more and more (outside of Doriath). But the leaguer of the north holds back the orc armies from most of Beleriand until 4 centuries into the First Age. So, we can see the entwives leaving because of the spread of the evil of Morgoth, even if it isn't immediately upon his arrival.
    Haerangil likes this.
  4. Ange1e4e5

    Ange1e4e5 Active Member

    Perhaps Beren and Luthien will comprise half of a season, with the events leading up to the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, including the sickness that claims Lalaith as the other half, with Nirnaeth Arnoediad opening the next season?
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  5. Marielle

    Marielle Well-Known Member

    Ugh... I don't even want to think about that tangling web right now...
    MithLuin and Haakon like this.
  6. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Active Member

    Is it too late to persuade Corey to split season 4?
  7. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Probably. But if he's set on Beren and LĂșthien as Season 5, I do plan to pitch a longer Season 4. Like, maybe 23 episodes instead of 13? That will likely be shot down as well, but there is a *lot* of material, and so far Every. Single. Time. the Execs mention Season 4, they say 'Of Beleriand and Its Realms - nothing happens there! How will we have a whole season of material?' as if they have completely forgotten what needs to be worked in between the rising of the Sun and the fall of Fingolfin. It perplexes me, but that will be an issue to deal with in whatever 'gap' we have between Season 3 and Season 4.
    Haakon and Faelivrin like this.
  8. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Active Member

    So, why is he set on Beren and Luthien specifially as season 5? It seems completely arbitrary to me. I would think one number is as good as another.

    How are the podcasts structured? Do you get to make comments or responses to what the speakers say?

    Well, kind of. But the Siege doesn't start until Dagor Aglareb, in year 60. Also if they have anything to do with Mortals learning agriculture (which I think would be neat) it would make more sense for them to be further east, nearer Hildorien, when that happens -- but it would have to be early on, before the Edain arrive over the Blue Mountains.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  9. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    I think we can let the Entwives leave pretty early on, they could leave just before or just after the First Battle. That battle is a kind of manifestation of Morgoth, if you will, so it wouldn't be far from the text...
  10. Haerangil

    Haerangil Well-Known Member

    I still vote for a hildorien excourse that covers some of the tu/ nuin storyline from lost tales plus some of the melkor/ first temple storyline from the athrabeth... There is really good material there that could be worked out ! I love tu, nuin, ermon& elmir so much and i would like to see morwe and nurwe again..
  11. Haerangil

    Haerangil Well-Known Member

    We do have a frame narrative... So far i did not really see a purpose for it and found it more distracting than everything else. However it would make sense if it gave us the opportunity to abandon linear storytelling at one point and shift to thematic- centered seasons...
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
    Faelivrin and Haakon like this.
  12. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    One reason to make sure Beren and Luthien is Season 5 is to make sure we get to the 'good parts' of the stories as soon as possible. I doubt this is the primary motive - we spent an entire season on the Valar before the arrival of elves, after all.

    I do plan to make a list of *everything* that needs to happen before we get to Beren and Luthien, with the comment, "One season - really?" and see if that doesn't get their attention.

    The podcasts allow for listeners to type in comments, which the hosts often respond to. If you listen to some of the recorded podcasts, you will hear the callouts of who is suggesting what. This season I've been putting together PowerPoint presentations based on the input from the messageboards, so comments made here sometimes make it in by quote/name as well. In the first two seasons, Phillip Menzies collected input from the discussion here, and the Hosts referred to that as well.
    Haerangil and Faelivrin like this.
  13. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    To continue the 'What is Morgoth up to?' discussion...

    I haven't listened to this session yet, so I don't know what was brought up, but it occurred to me that it would make a lot of sense if...Morgoth brought winter to Beleriand. Maybe it was somewhat temperate beforehand, but now that he's back, they're getting snowstorms and need to seek shelter more than they used to. Not Helcaraxë levels of 'winter' of course, but at least...cold enough for the elves to notice.

    I don't really want 'snow = evil,' because that's uncalled for, but if extreme heat and cold is Melkor's thing, and we've already shown some volcanic activity...bring on winter. And that's a way for the land to become more barren and desolate in a gradual/normal way rather than *instant poison!* levels of withering and decay.

    Alternatively, he could have the ability to see further when he's seated on his underground throne (magic?), and that shows him going over into passive observer territory rather than active participant.

    EDIT: This topic is discussed 46 minutes into the podcast
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017 at 4:41 AM
    Faelivrin likes this.
  14. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Active Member

    I agree completely. Morgoth brings along the Ice Age (which was in remission while he was captive). Melian keeps Beleriand itself temperate, but things rapidly get quite cold in Mithrim, Hithlum, Dorthonion, etc. With the Sun there will be springs and summers, even in then northlands, but they'll still be colder and drier and windier than Beleriand.
    Nicholas Palazzo and Haerangil like this.

Share This Page