Session 4.08 - Overarching Storylines, Final (I hope!)

Haerangil said:
Sure, but asking Gothmog "may i go for a stroll?" And then devastating the entire Area does not make him look very intelligent i think..
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True.

MithLuin said:
There is a desire to show Glaurung arranging his own escape. It gives him agency and shows he's not a tame dragon. What to do with Gothmog this season isn't obvious to me.
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Maybe he's training Orcs?
 
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Gothmog and Boldog would be training Orcs.

I was thinking Glaurung manipulates/tricks Gothmog into helping his escape. But I have no idea how to convey that, or if it's possible to convey without spoilering Glaurung's existence.
 
Faelivrin said:
Gothmog and Boldog would be training Orcs.

I was thinking Glaurung manipulates/tricks Gothmog into helping his escape. But I have no idea how to convey that, or if it's possible to convey without spoilering Glaurung's existence.
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Maybe we have a scene next season early on that reveals that Glaurung manipulated Gothmog, by either persuasion or hypnotism?
 
Well at that time i ask myself: what are Glaurungs policies at this moment?

Is he just a wild youth who wants his freedom and make some mischief on his own? The way it seems to me it does not sound like he is a very loyal subject at this moment. I'm not sure if i like that kind of Glaurung... maybe it could be sold to me but so far i am not convinced.

What does he want? Maybe he wants to prove himself, show his power, prove that he is ready...?
so why is he released and by whom? Perhaps by somebody who does know that Glaurung is everything but ready and will maybe die or at last ridicule himself...
who could this person be, who maybe sees Glaurung as a potential competitor for the favor of his master rather than as a potential weapon?
 
From young Glaurung's perspective: there's no pre-planned endgame. He doesn't know "Oooh, I'm 37% of the way to my final form - getting closer every day!". He's the first one, who knows what the final form will be? For all they know, Dagor Aglareb Glaurung is peak Glaurung.
 
amysrevenge said:
From young Glaurung's perspective: there's no pre-planned endgame. He doesn't know "Oooh, I'm 37% of the way to my final form - getting closer every day!". He's the first one, who knows what the final form will be? For all they know, Dagor Aglareb Glaurung is peak Glaurung.
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I thought it was the Dagor Bragollach. He wasn’t around for the Dagor Aglareb.
 
Still doesn't answer my question...

I'm not convinced that Glaurung, young or not, is just an evil child who wants to get out and play and so decides to trick his babysitter.
 
He's a master manipulator. I reckon he thinks he's READY. Ready to go out and fulfil his purpose. Everyone who thinks he should stay locked up is wrong. He's cocky, he's impatient, and he's cunning. He will figure out a way to go around the idiots holding him back, in a way that leaves the idiots on the hook for whatever marginal risk there is for backlash. When he succeeds, he'll be shown to be a genius. In the tiny unlikely chance that he fails, the idiots will take the blame.

He reads to me like that evil genius kid in the Ender's Shadow books.
 
amysrevenge said:
He's a master manipulator. I reckon he thinks he's READY. Ready to go out and fulfil his purpose. Everyone who thinks he should stay locked up is wrong. He's cocky, he's impatient, and he's cunning. He will figure out a way to go around the idiots holding him back, in a way that leaves the idiots on the hook for whatever marginal risk there is for backlash. When he succeeds, he'll be shown to be a genius. In the tiny unlikely chance that he fails, the idiots will take the blame.

He reads to me like that evil genius kid in the Ender's Shadow books.
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Of course, he'll be a lot smarter by the time The Children of Hurin rolls around. Room for growth.
 
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Haerangil said:
Still doesn't answer my question...

I'm not convinced that Glaurung, young or not, is just an evil child who wants to get out and play and so decides to trick his babysitter.
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Well, isn't this just a taste of Glaurung? He's going to get stronger and smarter by the time of the Dagor Bragollach and the events of The Children of Hurin.
 
I like the idea he wants to prove he's ready. And perhaps he's tired of being babysat and wants to assert himself as an Angband power in his own right. That he can potentially get Gothmog blamed for it would be icing on the cake -- although he'd have to be careful how much he plays dumb or Morgoth might decide to replace him with a smarter Dragon.
 
Faelivrin said:
I like the idea he wants to prove he's ready. And perhaps he's tired of being babysat and wants to assert himself as an Angband power in his own right. That he can potentially get Gothmog blamed for it would be icing on the cake -- although he'd have to be careful how much he plays dumb or Morgoth might decide to replace him with a smarter Dragon.
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Well, he does prove himself smarter than any other dragon in existence. As far as I know, no other dragon has mind-control or can wipe memories.
 
True! But he hasn't proven that yet, has he?
Disobeying Morgoth is a risky game... if he wants to pin the blame on Gothmog, he'll try not to let on that he manipulated the Balrog. But then he risks making it appear that Gothmog manipulated him.
 
Faelivrin said:
True! But he hasn't proven that yet, has he?
Disobeying Morgoth is a risky game... if he wants to pin the blame on Gothmog, he'll try not to let on that he manipulated the Balrog.
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Maybe Gothmog was thinking of it anyway, and Glaurung decided to... help him along.
 
I agree that part of what is so terrifying about Glaurung is not just that he's a big scary dragon who kills people, but that he is a very clever creature capable of mind games and mind control. He can do a number on his enemies, completely tearing apart their minds if they are foolish enough to look him in the eye. Glaurung does not fly and he does not breathe fire...but he does talk.

We have to decide what we want to introduce about him and when.

One way to handle his story would be to tease that Morgoth is working on a new monster, the next thing in the arms race after trolls were so susceptible to sunlight. In that case, we probably don't want the audience to know *what* this creature is until the final episode, when he bursts out and his enemies see him for the first time. In that case, having Gothmog have a conversation with something offscreen would be a good way to tease Glaurung's existence in Angband (before the attack). We hear his voice and hear his massive body moving about before we catch any glimpse of him.

Another approach is to focus on *what* sort of monster Morgoth is creating. In that case, we'd want to show a bit more of the process, the R&D that goes into this. Are there failed creations before the first dragon? Do they not have enough cunning or malice? Does Glaurung eat them all and that's why he's the only first dragon? I dunno what story we'd be trying to tell there, but we would likely see/experience baby!Glaurung before his attack on the Noldor, and thus we will likely show him breaking out under his own power - grown too big and strong for his cage. Or something.

The Noldor will know nothing about Glaurung (unless an escaped prisoner delivers news?), so it will be a shock to them when he attacks. The question is...is it a shock to the audience as well?
 
I think making Dragons a surprise to the audience would be the best. Gothmog having a conversation with somebody unseen is a good idea.

Glaurung totally does breathe fire, though, I'm sure of it.
 
Faelivrin said:
I think making Dragons a surprise to the audience would be the best. Gothmog having a conversation with somebody unseen is a good idea.

Glaurung totally does breathe fire, though, I'm sure of it.
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He does, as an uruloki, or wingless fire-breathing dragon.
 
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