Session 4.09 & 4.10- Overarching Storylines: Hildorien, Dragons, and Lúthien

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
How much damage do we want Glaurung to do?...

And how much do we want to change the text?
My hope is that the wake of Glaurung evokes the effects of Vietnam-era napalm. It should be devastating, but not widespread. There should definitely be a cost, otherwise it will be an incredibly anti-climatic season ending.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I do prefer to keep the idea that he defiled the fields of Ard-galen, and the Elves fled before him in dismay. (paraphrased)

Even where Glaurung isn't burning the land, his tracks would poison and kill the plants, and if he crossed water there'd be vile poisonous fumes.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
My hope is that the wake of Glaurung evokes the effects of Vietnam-era napalm. It should be devastating, but not widespread. There should definitely be a cost, otherwise it will be an incredibly anti-climatic season ending.
We shouldn’t make Glaurung’s debut too big, it might take away from the Dagor Bragollach when the Ard-Galen goes up in smoke, earning the name Anfauglith.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
There is definitely a knife edge upon which to balance. Can't be too big (for reasons you state), can't be too small or he looks cartoonishly foolish.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Is "sneaky Glaurung" at all compatible with the passage in the book? And is it a Final Decision or a prompt/suggestion?

Can he sneak out of Angband and through Dor Daedeloth, but then defile and burn part of Ard-galen? Can he cause the Elves to flee from him in dismay, without seeing him clearly or at all?
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I can't find Session 9 online at all, on YouTube or on Twitch. Tonight I would have had time to watch it, but I probably won't have time again for a month or so, even if it's eventually uploaded.

MithLuin said that Corey addressed... something... about Annael's story in Session 9. Would somebody who was able to watch it please summarize? I remain very concerned. I watched Session 8 in which Corey stated several plans for Annael that look like huge plot holes to me.

I don't want to just repeat my questions/concerns since they're many paragraphs long, but I'll link:

Thank you for summarizing the plan. Unfortunately I'm not following how this works with Annael.
3. It is also very important that we have Elves living in Mithrim in this season. NOT just Annael by himself.
So, how is Annael, who has been said to be a leader amongst the Sindar of Mithrim, going to attract followers if he’s a known traitor?
I'm not at all happy with the decision that Celeborn is going to tell Annael everything Galadriel told him in confidence.
I will only add that even on its own terms, Corey's plan doesn't make sense. Annael is going to somehow spy on the Noldor while living in the Falas or in Doriath, and then after he's exiled, will cross hundreds miles and one or two mountain ranges to reach Mithrim like some sort of pilgrim, to a place no Sinda has ever lived before.

Please ... help.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I can't find Session 9 online at all, on YouTube or on Twitch. Tonight I would have had time to watch it, but I probably won't have time again for a month or so, even if it's eventually uploaded.

MithLuin said that Corey addressed... something... about Annael's story in Session 9. Would somebody who was able to watch it please summarize? I remain very concerned. I watched Session 8 in which Corey stated several plans for Annael that look like huge plot holes to me.

I don't want to just repeat my questions/concerns since they're many paragraphs long, but I'll link:




Please ... help.
Try this for Twitch.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/384908227?filter=all&sort=time
We mostly focused on Hildorien ad nauseum for it, though.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
OK, I got through the beginning of Session 9. Thank you both for the link.


So... according to Corey, some kind of mind-control is placed on Annael, and then he just ... “gets better”. How?

I’m trying to understand this. So IIRC the plan is:
  1. Annael is not under the Spell of BD. Sauron plants a hypnosis trigger in his mind and sends him back to Doriath or the Falathrim Havens.
  2. Thuringwethil periodically travels to where Annael lives (in Doriath?). Whenever she shows up, he temporarily loses his [sanity? free will? perception of reality?], tells her everything he knows, and obeys her orders to do treacherous things.
  3. When she’s not around, he has free will and sanity like a normal person, and forgets whatever he did.
  4. When the other Elves prove that he was a traitor, he... suddenly breaks Sauron’s spell and they can’t mind-control him again.
  5. Then he travels hundreds of miles from Doriath/the Havens to Mithrim, and lives alone.
  6. Rían somehow finds him anyway. He and Tuor live alone in the woods and are shunned by everybody.
  7. But then he’s not shunned anymore and other Elves start helping him.
Please tell me if I have any of this correct.

How does Annael break Sauron’s spell? Or why does Sauron release him? If Thuringwethil can make him do anything she wants, then even if he had no other use, she’d make him return to Angband to be a slave.

This also doesn’t address the other problems I linked to above: Annael being the only Sinda in Hithlum, Annael spying on the Noldor while living hundreds of miles away from them, Elves following Annael’s leadership despite knowing he’s a traitor, and Celeborn betraying Galadriel.

Also, if Annael is the only Sinda ever in Hithlum, then any Elves who decide to follow him have to be Noldor. But Tuor can’t meet any Noldor before Gelmir and Arminas and can’t know where the Gate of the Noldor is until they show him, or he would have gone to meet Ulmo many years earlier.



In response to the first part of Session 9, while we do want to show Morgoth degenerating, and contrast him with Sauron, I disagree with how far the Execs plan to take it. IMO we can depict Morgoth as insane without making him senile. Sauron can be aware at the end of the First Age (not right now!) that Morgoth is insane, and not want to lose his own sanity, without introducing senility or betrayal. It isn’t in character for Sauron to betray Morgoth at the War of Wrath. Tolkien said that First Age Sauron was “less evil only in that for long he served another and not himself”. I don’t want to depict him as so repentant that he helps the Valar. I also don’t want to make Morgoth so weak and senile that Sauron can control or “manage” him. Morgoth at the end of the First Age is still intelligent, and so powerful that the Valar can barely defeat him.

And Sauron doesn’t need to go to Harad in the First Age, if that’s what the Hosts were suggesting. Sauron has an entire millennium to influence Harad in the early Second Age.

Sorry to be negative so much, but this is what I think.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Ummm...not quite, no.

You do have the hypnosis thing correct. Sauron does something to him, Thuringwethil visits him, and while she is visiting he answers all her questions, but then has no memory of doing so when she leaves. Thus, he serves as an unwitting spy. We haven't suggested that his actions are controlled, but I suppose the way this hypnosis works could include some forced actions. Probably nothing more than 'sleepwalking' though. He's meant to be a source of information, not an inside operative.

Annael will not be in Doriath. He is one of the Falathrim who moves to the north after the arrival of the Noldor. We don't have all the details finalized, but he's one of Círdan's people at the beginning of Season 4, and he would then be somewhere in the north (Dorthonion, Mithrim, Nevrast, Hithlum) when he returns from capture. He does *not* live in Doriath (though he may visit there at some point in the story, before or after his capture). I suppose someone might prefer for him to be an elf of Doriath who came along with Celeborn and did not return with Beleg, so he's been on the ships but isn't Falathrim. Alternatively...he's been on the ships and he's Falathrim.

Annael is 'caught' as a spy when someone overhears him reporting to Thuringwethil (most likely; details to come). He is confronted and denies it, but the other witness is very convincing - I saw you! I heard you! At first, Annael does not understand how this could be possible, but he eventually realizes that the gaps in his memory since his capture mean something. He realizes that he is indeed compromised. His exile seems to be a mutual decision - whatever community he's in recognizes that it's not safe to have him there or let him know anything, and he himself recognizes that he's a danger to others and must leave. He leaves to become a hermit in the wilderness.

At this point, Thuringwethil loses interest in her 'spy', because he's useless and can't report any information about his former community of elves. She may lose track of him altogether, since he's now hiding in the woods. Then, around the time of the Beren and Lúthien story...she dies. Annael does not actively break free of anything. Whatever Sauron did to him is likely permanent. But...it only activates in the presence of Thuringwethil or Sauron himself, so it has essentially gone dormant since his exile. Annael may never again trust himself to join an elven community (because he honestly doesn't know if he's still compromised or how he would even know), but he stops being a danger to those around him and ceases to be of any use or interest to the bad guys. Eventually, Annael transitions from being a solitary hermit to being the leader of a small hidden community of Sindar elves (presumably, those fleeing other settlements for their own reasons). As long as he stays away from Morgoth's forces, everything seems to be fine.....

And then the Tuor story.

I know you have been very concerned about the lack of Sindar in the north of Beleriand in Season 3. In Season 3, it was important to keep the audience focused on learning about two groups of Sindar - the ones at the Havens under Círdan, and the ones in the forests of Region and Neldoreth who would eventually become the elves of Doriath under Thingol. (Well, and also the Green Elves). We did not want to introduce any other elven communities in Beleriand at that time. Recall that in Season 3, the Havens of Brithombar and Eglarest were both destroyed and set on fire. Círdan's people are homeless refugees looking to reestablish themselves. Some of them will move to Nevrast and join Turgon's people. While the Havens will eventually be rebuilt, we are going to see some intermingling of Sindar and Noldor in the other realms as well (Well...maybe not East Beleriand, so much). Since they are settling in Noldor realms that we are showing being established, it's not a new/separate Sindar enclave to learn about - it's Sindar being part of Nevrast, Hithlum, Dorthonion, etc. That's fine. And yes, Annael can be one of them.

I know we haven't established all the details yet - how will Annael get captured? Will he try to go 'home' after his escape, and if so, where is that? (Turgon's Nevrast, now mostly empty as they've all moved to Gondolin?) How and why does he end up where he does? (Probably with Fingon in Hithlum, but...maybe not.) I know it's not comfortable not to have all the answers and not to have everything in the story hammered down, but it's also good to give ourselves room to develop the story as we go. We know what we want to do with Annael's character, and we can focus on making that happen, in the best way that fits in with the rest of the stories we're telling. We may tie his story in with Rog's, and we know we want Rog to end up with Fingolfin and Fingon. Or we may have a reason to want him somewhere else first; I don't know. Here in Season 4, Annael is a minor character. He won't become 'important' until Tuor's story in Season (*cough*) In short, you are concerned that we get Annael where he is supposed to be at that time. This backstory is not meant to alter that placement, but rather to get us there.


Sauron will vanish from the story after being defeated by Lúthien in Season 6, not reappearing for quite some time. He has to be off doing something, and the audience is going to want to know about what he did in his absence when he comes back. Sending him to Harad to get things started there is certainly one option that explains why he's not around in Angband any more. We'll likely want him back for the Fall of Gondolin (Maeglin's capture is very like Gorlim's in some ways). If so, that's likely 2 full seasons out of the picture for Sauron. Some other plan of what to do with him can be suggested, though. The fall of Sauron is something we've been depicting since Season 1 (when he chose Morgoth over Manwë for his power), but we are very intentionally taking it gradually. Sauron will certainly march down the same path into the Void, but he's not at make-the-Ring-and-use-Celebrimbor-for-a-banner levels yet. Don't worry, he'll get there, and he's slipping deeper in every time we show him.


I agree that Celeborn does not betray Galadriel. The entire point of having her share the news of the Kinslaying with him is to establish that he's worthy of her trust. He explicitly does not tell Thingol, his king. Therefore, if he discusses the Kinslaying with Annael at all, that would be *after* the general reveal of the Kinslaying when all the Sindar know, and he'd likely be clarifying something that Annael has wrong (putting an end to rumors). This would likely only make sense if events occurred in this order: 1) Kinslaying Reveal 2) Annael talks with Celeborn 3) Annael's capture 4) Sauron learns of the Kinslaying. Most likely, there would be no time/place for such a conversation to occur in Season 4 of SilmFilm, and Sauron will learn of the Kinslaying from a Noldo prisoner.



IIRC = If I Recall Correctly, or If I Remember Correctly, for anyone not familiar with that acronym.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
IIRC = if I read correctly

Alright, finally I understand the hypnosis and treachery part. Thank you for your patience with my lack of comprehension. As long as Thuringwethil doesn't have the power to make him do things, then she can't use him after he's exiled, especially if she can't even find him.
Annael will not be in Doriath. He is one of the Falathrim who moves to the north after the arrival of the Noldor. We don't have all the details finalized, but he's one of Círdan's people at the beginning of Season 4, and he would then be somewhere in the north (Dorthonion, Mithrim, Nevrast, Hithlum) when he returns from capture. He does *not* live in Doriath (though he may visit there at some point in the story, before or after his capture). I suppose someone might prefer for him to be an elf of Doriath who came along with Celeborn and did not return with Beleg, so he's been on the ships but isn't Falathrim. Alternatively...he's been on the ships and he's Falathrim
We need to try to tell a story of Sindar immigrating to Mithrim/Hithlum and creating communities there, with Annael among them. It would only make sense for him to go to the woods of Mithrim if he was previously part of a Sindarin community actually living in Hithlum or Mithrim.
Eventually, Annael transitions from being a solitary hermit to being the leader of a small hidden community of Sindar elves (presumably, those fleeing other settlements for their own reasons).
Likewise, these people could only be survivors of existing Sindarin communities in Mithrim/Hithlum, destroyed in the Nirnaeth. If they were from communities farther south, then of course they'd end up living in the woods in West Beleriand or fleeing to the Havens, not fleeing into a place controlled by Elf-hating Easterlings.

But my fear is that the Execs are going to veto it. Corey has repeatedly stated his opposition to the existence of any Sindarin communities in the north, especially before Annael's capture, most recently in Session 8. We all know that Mithrim Sindar won't ruin the story, but Corey thinks they will. Likewise, if we don't want Celeborn to betray Galadriel we have to somehow persuade the Execs to let Celeborn keep his silence.
I know we haven't established all the details yet - how will Annael get captured? Will he try to go 'home' after his escape,
These questions don't worry me, in and of themselves.
In short, you are concerned that we get Annael where he is supposed to be at that time.
I'm equally concerned with where he comes from, and who else Tuor is living with. But those depend on whether any other Sinda is allowed to live in Mithrim in Season 4.



Sauron will vanish from the story after being defeated by Lúthien in Season 6, not reappearing for quite some time.
I'm not convinced yet that he has to vanish. In the books, Gothmog and the Balrogs do nothing between Maedhros' capture and the Nirnaeth, and again do nothing between the Nirnaeth and the fall of Gondolin. But we don't send them on vacation, we're giving them more stuff to do in the meantime. We can do that with Sauron, too. He'll be disgraced and demoted after the Tol-in-Gaurhoth fiasco, and will need some time to recover from his "death", but he can still be useful in Angband. If anything, Morgoth will want to keep a close eye on his mightiest (and now disgruntled) servant, rather than let him go set up a secondary realm outside Angband's reach.

Part of the trouble is that if we paint Sauron as only scheming, then yes we'll run out of things for him to do. The best solution is to let him do more than just underhanded sneaky stuff. There are a lot of captives in Angband for him to practice torture, slavemastering, domination, and necromancy over. Necromancy includes inventing how to possess the living and then teaching lesser demons, because that's the ultimate spy game once the Elves get suspicious of escaped captives. There will be an increasing number of Orkish strongholds and slaves to organize and keep in an orderly fashion, especially after the Nirnaeth, and putting things in order is truly Sauron's passion. Whereas Morgoth... may or may not care about the regimental organization and discipline and picky details of Orkish outposts in what used to be Hithlum, Himring, Brethil, Nargothrond, Doriath, etc. While Morgoth just wants to destroy people, Sauron wants to turn Angband into a vast imperial power. And since organized armies are more likely to be successful and loyal than random undisciplined ones, Sauron would be allowed to keep organizing the Orcs and Gaurhoth.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Gah, stupid slang, having multiple meanings :p
https://www.dictionary.com/e/acronyms/iirc/
https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/IIRC


Right, we don't have any Sindar living in the North yet. As of the opening of Season 4, they aren't there. I understand we need to get them there, and that should be part of what is happening with the establishment of the various Noldor realms this Season.

As for Sauron...yeah, we'll have to come up with something for him to do. I think the sticking point is that, while he's disgraced, he wouldn't likely be given control of a new project. Like, oh, hey, you lost your Tower and your body and all your werewolves? Here, why don't you take over the Orc armies now that Boldog is dead! He can lick his wounds in disgrace for a time, but... That is a question for Season 7, though, so we'll certainly revisit it later.
 

Kathrin

Active Member
On the topic of the blue wizards the hosts adressed in 4.09, I am kinda lukewarm on the corrupted blue wizard thing but what I would dig is having them be a bit more opportunistic and maybe try to be a more political power in a very troubled east. Maybe they can be very independent of the west and so they can indeed struggle with what are the right choices as they don't have that very easy good - bad standard because they are further away from valinor and maybe sometime have to compromise... Yeah anyway. I was just kinda against them being just the evil gandalf and radagast or another saruman.

The East (and South) is pretty large anyway right? So there wouldn't be a united realm of Sauron's dominion all the time anyway. Maybe there are also civil wars in the east, or different city states within that rebel or whatever. And the blue wizards could be two of several independent forces in that struggle, in which Sauron obviously is a big factor, but probably not the only one

Below a picture I did on the two blue wizards a while ago.

Palando&Alatar komprimiert.jpg
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
For Sauron, sending him into the east to corrupt new nations of Men would be a new project.


Blue Wizards: I also would rather they were something other than just blue versions of Saruman (although it doesn't seem likely that they'll appear much in SilmFilm). Although in the 50s Tolkien said that the Blue Wizards (and Radagast) failed and didn't remain faithful to their cause, later he changed his mind. In 1972 or 1973 he said they did have some success:

"The 'other two' came much earlier [than 3A 1000], at the same time probably as Glorfindel," about 2A 1600.
"Morinehtar and Rómestámo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to cirumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West." They were also tasked with finding where Sauron was hiding after the fall of Numenor, but they failed at that.

I prefer that idea, that the Valar wouldn't entirely abandon all non-Edain Mortals to darkness, and that not all of the people in the rest of the vast Middle-earth were monolithically evil Satanists. It also inspires in me a very interesting vision of these two guys trying to help beleagured groups of rebels and tribes who were trying to resist Sauron, living in very precarious positions in a landscape ruled by Sauron. It must have been exceedingly difficult, without such clear-cut sides of "good" and "evil" Mortals as in the north-west.


About Wizard-ly incarnation in real bodies: according to a note written in 1954-5 this was done "with the consent of Eru", so that's a definite distinction from whatever incarnation Morgoth was devising.
 
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