Session 4.09 & 4.10- Overarching Storylines: Hildorien, Dragons, and Lúthien

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
IMO #2 is the best option out of the above, and so we should consider who is and who isn't a healer.
Yes, I think this healer/herald vs. warrior divide is an excellent way to clear up all sorts of succession issues that have been quietly sticking in my craw in the background.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Yes, I think this healer/herald vs. warrior divide is an excellent way to clear up all sorts of succession issues that have been quietly sticking in my craw in the background.
So for example, to go outside the Noldor, Dior is a warrior? Might explain why he was Thingol’s heir and not his mother Luthien.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
So for example, to go outside the Noldor, Dior is a warrior? Might explain why he was Thingol’s heir and not his mother Luthien.
That makes sense to me.

Luthien also went live in seclusion on an island in Ossirand, showing no intention to even live among Elvenkind anymore.


Yes, I think this healer/herald vs. warrior divide is an excellent way to clear up all sorts of succession issues that have been quietly sticking in my craw in the background.
Just in case somebody asks about Elrond, I think in the discussion about succession (wherever it was) it came up that Elrond isn't the High King of the Noldor. He doesn't call himself the King of Rivendell, either. (But, to explain ambitious Galadriel not becoming High Queen, somebody suggested that the office lost meaning after the Last Alliance with most of the Noldor dead or gone West.)
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
That makes sense to me.

Luthien also went live in seclusion on an island in Ossirand, showing no intention to even live among Elvenkind anymore.


Just in case somebody asks about Elrond, I think in the discussion about succession (wherever it was) it came up that Elrond isn't the High King of the Noldor. He doesn't call himself the King of Rivendell, either. (But, to explain ambitious Galadriel not becoming High Queen, somebody suggested that the office lost meaning after the Last Alliance with most of the Noldor dead or gone West.)
Even beforehand, was she ever considered Thingol’s heir? And I would ask the same question of Idril for Turgon.

And Rivendell isn’t really big enough to constitute a kingdom. Lindon was also greatly affected by the Downfall of Numenor (it’s mentioned that the sea rose and the land shrunk).
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I am fine with Irimë's daughter taking on her role as Besan from her. But I do think if we're looking for 'Fingolfin's closest living female relative' that we have to address the question of whether or not Fingon has a wife. Because, presumably she would be the Besan for the Host of Fingolfin if it's not Irimë or Aredhel. I also agree that the Besan and the Herald should be different people. Fingolfin will need both. Also, Irimë was definitely a fighter at Alqualondë, so perhaps she wasn't Besan at all.

I would like for the Host of Fëanor to do something a bit differently from the Host of Fingolfin. It's possible that, if the Fëanoreans have heralds, they are fighters not healers. So, the role is just very different in their Host. Whether we eliminate the role of herald or let the brothers serve as each other's heralds, we have the practical result of not adding more characters.

Would the Besain seek to reconcile the Camps while the two groups are in a standoff? That would emphasize their roles as healers, and as you point out, give some attention to their independence. It also runs the risk of reducing the tension between the Camps before we're ready for them to reconcile. Maybe the besan in each Camp is advocating for reconciliation, but no practical steps are made until after Fingon rescues Maedhros. I realize such details can be worked out in the individual episodes, but for now, just the idea that the two besain will play a role in healing the feud is the important part.
 
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cellardur

Active Member
Heralds are fighters. The greatest warrior with arms is the Herald of Manwe: Eonwe.

It's been discussed before, but Elrond is a seasoned warrior, who is first to lead the Elves into battle. He is even described as a warrior several times.

Elrond is of the line of Luthien and like the Numenorean Kings, both a healer and a warrior. It's unusual for an elf, but in this line particularly the two skills are blended together, as proof of their divine lineage. Aragorn does mention Elrond is the oldest of their 'RACE.'

When it comes to kingship, Elrond does not even like to trace his lineage through Finwe, but prefers Thingol. I don't think he ever had any intention or desire to be king. The real question is why he is not King of the Sindar. The Sindar and even Thranduil seem like they would accept his authority. There is even some indication in the LOTR appendix, that Thranduil does accept Arwen's authority over him.

As for Luthien, we know she is a great healer. She heals Beren from what would normally be fatal wounds. Her descendent also seem to get their healing powers from her as Aragorn mentions.

I always thought Luthien was clearly Thingol's heir until she abandons her Elvish position. Luthien doesn't just marry Beren and remain princess of Doriath. As she says, she cleaves to him and will be with his people. She refuses to even speak Sindar with him, but instead only uses Beorian. Luthien has pretty much abdicated.

With the Noldor it's different. Idril was never Turgon's heir and nothing indicates women can rule. The Sindar and the Numenoreans are more enlightened. I don't see why we need to change this. As I say, the Noldor are very, very flawed.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I'm watching podcast #8 and I suddenly noticed that the entire Spell of Bottomless Dread concept has been moved from Morgoth to Sauron. Why exactly was this changed? Tolkien showed only Morgoth being able to so completely domiante the wills of Elves in that way. It should be his project. Sauron has the spying and rumormongering project.


Irimë was definitely a fighter at Alqualondë, so perhaps she wasn't Besan at all.
A Besan can be a wrrior. Galadriel is both a warrior and (in Lothlorien) a Besan.

I would like for the Host of Fëanor to do something a bit differently from the Host of Fingolfin. It's possible that, if the Fëanoreans have heralds, they are fighters not healers.
This would make sense to me. I just don't want Maglor himself to be a healer.

Would the Besain seek to reconcile the Camps while the two groups are in a standoff?
This was my suggestion:

1. Fingolfin's host uses up all their lembas and even their seed-corn on the Helkaraxe.
2. Fingon rescues Maedhros, and brings him to Fingolfin's camp.
3. Fingolfin informs the Feanorians and invites them to visit their brother.
4. Maglor's Besan (likely his wife) on her own initiative brings lembas and the seeds for growing the Corn of Yavanna, and hands it out as she deems appropriate. Maglor and Maedhros don't even have a say in this.
5. Later, political reconciliation is accomplished through other actions.



It's been discussed before, but Elrond is a seasoned warrior, who is first to lead the Elves into battle. He is even described as a warrior several times.
You have quoted similes about Elrond, but they aren't evidence that he's a professional soldier. Elrond was said to be "as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer." In the FotR there's another simile of the same sort*. Since he's not a Dwarf nor one of the Istari, these similes don't make him a warrior either. Having combat experience does not automatically make somebody a professional, full-time soldier, as Laws and Customs makes clear.

*ETA: which appears to be there only to emphasize that he's simultaneously extremely old and very hale and strong

Elrond's ability to use a sword is unconnected to the much later Numenorean custom of the King being a warrior and healer at the same time. The early kings of Numenor were not warriors and didn't fight even in self-defense, because they lived on a perfectly peaceful island utopia with no violence whatsoever. The later kings were raised by Men, not Elves.

With the Noldor it's different. Idril was never Turgon's heir and nothing indicates women can rule. The Sindar and the Numenoreans are more enlightened. I don't see why we need to change this. As I say, the Noldor are very, very flawed.
The Noldor are flawed by being violent, quarrelsome, and proud. But there's no reason to suppose they learned misogyny from the Valar. And I simply prefer not to make sexism ubiquitous. I don't like that about Tolkien's stories and it's a place where not making a change would create something that has problems.

The N0ldor don't have to be bad in every way. They are allowed to have positive traits. They are allowed to be flawed heroes, rather than obvious villains. Even the Feanorians were intended, by their author, to be flawed heroes rather than total villains. The Noldor are supposed to be recently fallen from grace, not people who were already immoral for thousands of years. Treating women as inferior is clearly villainous to modern audiences and to several of the modern writers here. And as a woman, I do not want to write in a way that depicts sexism as normal or good or inevitable. And the whole reason that I suggested giving female Elves actual roles in the story is because I am not happy with the way that we have started treating them as expendable and systematically killing them all off. I don't want to write that way.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The Spell of Bottomless Dread remains Morgoth's ability.

Sauron is capturing and questioning elves. He's trying to sow dissent, glean information, etc. One of these captives (Eldalotë) is being difficult and Morgoth basically says, 'Let me show you how it's done.' He works his magic on her (which we are calling the Spell of Bottomless Dread) and completely breaks her mind. She is...not alright after that. She is going to have very erratic behavior and appear crazy to the elves. She is also Morgoth's puppet, and he can force her to obey him from that point on. We might give her moments of breaking free of that control or apparently waking up from the madness and having a moment of lucidity....but she never gets better.

For the elves Sauron questions, they are *not* under the Spell of Bottomless Dread. They're just under Sauron's confusion and manipulation. Thus, Annael will think himself free, but whenever Thuringwethil appears, he will report everything to her and answer her questions in a trance. It is quite possible that this part of the 'catch and release' program was strongly influenced by the idea that both Sauron and Thuringwethil are vampires.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Ah that's much clearer and makes more sense, thanks!

Sauron: I'm gonna need a better way to turn people into meat-puppets...
Sauron in the 2nd Age: NOW I've got it!
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Exactly. We will want viewers to think that he got that idea from Morgoth, and is copying his old master.

We also did not want to show any elves being able to 'resist' what Morgoth is doing here - it should be strong enough to crush them. Whereas resisting Sauron (as Rog will do) is more reasonable.
 

cellardur

Active Member
You have quoted similes about Elrond, but they aren't evidence that he's a professional soldier. Elrond was said to be "as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer." In the FotR there's another simile of the same sort*. Since he's not a Dwarf nor one of the Istari, these similes don't make him a warrior either. Having combat experience does not automatically make somebody a professional, full-time soldier, as Laws and Customs makes clear.

*ETA: which appears to be there only to emphasize that he's simultaneously extremely old and very hale and strong
Elrond's history of fighting consistently from as soon as he became an adult makes him a warrior. The War of Wrath, Sauron's War with the Elves and the Last Alliance are just some of his wars.

Elrond doesn't just have combat experience, but he is Gil-galad's first choice to command the counter attack against Sauron.

The simile in the FOTR goes a step further and compare him to a 'tried warrior.' The repeated use of the warrior when describing Elrond matches his life.
Elrond's ability to use a sword is unconnected to the much later Numenorean custom of the King being a warrior and healer at the same time. The early kings of Numenor were not warriors and didn't fight even in self-defense, because they lived on a perfectly peaceful island utopia with no violence whatsoever. The later kings were raised by Men, not Elves.
It is connected, because the Numenorean kings always carried a sword and they returned to fight in wars as early as Aldarion. The Numenorean king was both priest and king, warrior and healer.
The Noldor are flawed by being violent, quarrelsome, and proud. But there's no reason to suppose they learned misogyny from the Valar. And I simply prefer not to make sexism ubiquitous. I don't like that about Tolkien's stories and it's a place where not making a change would create something that has problems.
There's no reason to assume they learnt theft, murder, lying and betrayal from the Valar, but they did it the same.

It's not ubiquitous, because the Sindar and the Numenoreans do not have this custom. It's a Noldor thing.
The N0ldor don't have to be bad in every way. They are allowed to have positive traits. They are allowed to be flawed heroes, rather than obvious villains. Even the Feanorians were intended, by their author, to be flawed heroes rather than total villains. The Noldor are supposed to be recently fallen from grace, not people who were already immoral for thousands of years. Treating women as inferior is clearly villainous to modern audiences and to several of the modern writers here. And as a woman, I do not want to write in a way that depicts sexism as normal or good or inevitable. And the whole reason that I suggested giving female Elves actual roles in the story is because I am not happy with the way that we have started treating them as expendable and systematically killing them all off. I don't want to write that way.
I am not for white washing characters. The Noldor aren't perfect, but they are still heroes. I am not in favour of changing the story just, because we don't like something. Or else we might as well change everything.

The Sindar and Numenoreans will have a different view on things. The Sindar and the Numenoreans should be praised for their enlightened view. The Sindar and the early Numenoreans are just less corrupt than the Noldor.

As for killing off female, characters everyone dies in the Silmarillion. Only Galadriel, Cirdan and Celeborn are making it out of the First Age Alive. Everyone else is going to die. It's a tragic story.
 
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Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
"Everyone dies eventually" is not an excuse for systematically and deliberately eliminating all but one female character by Season 5 or 6, or declaring that none of them are ever allowed to have any role except helpless prisoner. This story is going to continue for 30+ seasons, and the vast majority of male characters will have strong, powerful, important roles for many many seasons before they die. I do NOT think it's unimportant that female characters are being treated drastically differently in this project from the male characters. It's extremely sexist writing and as a woman I do NOT want to write this way. I do NOT want to write a story that actively promotes and declares that women are useless, expendable accessories, whose only story role is to be killed or abused. I did not come here to write that kind of misogynistic filth. The very idea of writing something so disgusting and vile makes me sick. It's completely unacceptable. I don't care what excuses anyone comes up with for writing a misogynistic story. "But we have 1 or 2 strong women, only 99% of them are useless." is not an excuse either. There is no excuse for writing this way. None.

We started this by accident, but we need to undo it, not purposely double down on it.



MithLuin these are the concerns I want to convey to the Hosts:

1. Writing all women out of the story except Galadriel and Luthien is horrible and should not happen. If we're inventing a character who is never seen again and has no future story role whatsoever, then Maglor or Caranthir's son is a far better choice than anyone's wife. There is no sense in insisting that the character must be a canon character and have an important future story role, when we plan from the start that they'll never be seen again. This is extremely important to me.

2. We have roles for female characters to play. Real story roles, not just throwing them away as expenable decorations. We need healers and Besain. Most healers and all Besain are female. Women should also be scholars and counselors, who are respected by their male peers. There is no excuse for writing women as nothing but useless, expendable garbage.

3. It is also very important that we have Elves living in Mithrim in this season. NOT just Annael by himself. At most he should be an exile from an actual, real, genuine community of Elves. If there's no known Elven community in Mithrim Rian won't even know that one solitary hermit is hiding in the mountains whom nobody has seen or heard from in centuries. Furthermore Tuor needs to be raised by a community, not by one raving lunatic alone in the woods. Nobody who grows up that way would be emotionally stable or capable of functioning in society. Tuor needs to grow up stable and sane and functional, not a dysfunctional mess like Maeglin. Tuor cannot be raised by somebody like Eol. Making Annael the only Sinda ever in all of Mithrim is a horrible, awful idea. Destroying Tuor's story should not be the plan. Creating plot holes should never be on the table.

If he only ever lives on the Falas then he’d go in exile there, like Maglor. It’s absurd for him to cross multiple mountain ranges. And he can’t betray Hithum at the Dagor Aglareb if he doesn’t live there.

Corey drive to eliminate Sindar from Mithrim at any cost is counterproductive and unnecessary. We’re already showing them immigrate to Nevrast, we can show Mithrim at the same time. Having them in Mithrim will not somehow ruin the story.

4. Morgoth needs some actual initiative. All of his actions can't be suggestions initiated by his underlings. He needs to be able to think up his own plans, too. Right now, the plan is for everything to be suggested by Sauron or Gothmog, and Morgoth to just go along with their ideas. That's out of character. Morgoth is a horrible dictator, not a democratic representative who acts primarily on the requests of his constituents.

5. Luthien has no political ambition and little interest in going outside Doriath and hanging out with Noldor out there. She isn't at the Mereth Aderthad. She befriends Galadriel, is an active and persistent voice for reconciliation with the Noldor and moderation in the response to the Kinslaying, and she does the other cool things that we've been suggesting on this thread. Helping her people deal with the fallout of the Kinslaying reveal. Reminding them always, what they have to fight for. Etc. (I can't summarize it all now.)

6. Please, give us more time after March 8 to get the storylines all coordinated!
 
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cellardur

Active Member
"Everyone dies eventually" is not an excuse for systematically and deliberately eliminating all but one female character by Season 5, or declaring that none of them are ever allowed to have any role except helpless prisoner. This story is going to continue for 30+ seasons, and the vast majority of male characters will have strong, powerful, important roles for many many seasons before they die. I do NOT think it's unimportant that female characters are being treated drastically differently in this project from the male characters. It's extremely sexist writing and as a woman I do NOT want to write this way. I do NOT want to write a story that actively promotes and declares that women are useless, expendable accessories, whose only story role is to be killed or abused. I did not come here to write that kind of misogynistic filth. The very idea of writing something so disgusting and vile makes me sick. It's completely unacceptable. I don't care what excuses anyone comes up with for writing a misogynistic story. "But we have 1 or 2 strong women, only 99% of them are useless." is not an excuse either. There is no excuse for writing this way. None.

We started this by accident, but we need to undo it, not purposely double down on it.



MithLuin these are the concerns I want to convey to the Hosts:

1. Writing all women out of the story except Galadriel and Luthien is horrible and should not happen. If we're inventing a character who is never seen again and has no future story role whatsoever, then Maglor or Caranthir's son is a far better choice than anyone's wife. There is no sense in insisting that the character must be a canon character and have an important future story role, when we plan from the start that they'll never be seen again. This is extremely important to me.

2. We have roles for female characters to play. Real story roles, not just throwing them away as expenable decorations. We need healers and Besain. Most healers and all Besain are female. Women should also be scholars and counselors, who are respected by their male peers. There is no excuse for writing women as nothing but useless, expendable garbage.

3. It is also very important that we have Elves living in Mithrim in this season. NOT just Annael by himself. At most he should be an exile from an actual, real, genuine community of Elves. If there's no known Elven community in Mithrim Rian won't even know that one solitary hermit is hiding in the mountains whom nobody has seen or heard from in centuries. Furthermore Tuor needs to be raised by a community, not by one raving lunatic alone in the woods. Nobody who grows up that way would be emotionally stable or capable of functioning in society. Tuor needs to grow up stable and sane and functional, not a dysfunctional mess like Maeglin. Tuor cannot be raised by somebody like Eol. Making Annael the only Sinda ever in all of Mithrim is a horrible, awful idea. Destroying Tuor's story should not be the plan. Creating plot holes should never be on the table.

4. Morgoth needs some actual initiative. All of his actions can't be suggestions initiated by his underlings. He needs to be able to think up his own plans, too. Right now, the plan is for everything to be suggested by Sauron or Gothmog, and Morgoth to just go along with their ideas. That's out of character. Morgoth is a horrible dictator, not a democratic representative who acts primarily on the requests of his constituents.

5. Luthien has no political ambition and little interest in going outside Doriath and hanging out with Noldor out there. She isn't at the Mereth Aderthad. She befriends Galadriel, is an active and persistent voice for reconciliation with the Noldor and moderation in the response to the Kinslaying, and she does the other cool things that we've been suggesting on this thread. Helping her people deal with the fallout of the Kinslaying reveal. Reminding them always, what they have to fight for. Etc. (I can't summarize it all now.)

6. Please, give us more time after March 8 to get the storylines all coordinated!
I am sorry you feel this way, but I am only half way through Podcast 4.08. I don't yet see this gluttony of female characters being killed off. The only additional female character have suffering is Eldalotte. The other elves to be captured are all male.

We now have Celeborn's sister, Idril etc living. We will have other great characters like Morwen and Haleth. However, like with everyone else they will die. The only hope can come from the West.

However, as I said everyone dies in the Silmarillion it is a war without hope. Aegnor, Angrod, Eol, etc are just some of the male characters that are going to die and a lot of them will die brutally. We are going to see Gelmir and Gwindor, tortured and broken. It seems to me you are not focusing on the several male characters that will suffer. Aegnor will be unable to be with the love of his life, because he must do his duty and die. A pain he will NEVER recover from and even once resurrected in Valinor will go on mourning her. Annael is going to find himself a traitor and be forced to leave all his people, being only redeemed by raising Tuor.

This is a war with the only hope being the help from the Valar. I am all for female elves being given important roles even military roles, but I am against sparing from the horrors of war to push an agenda. There's no Sam Gamgee in the Silmarillion.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
"Everyone dies eventually" is not an excuse for systematically and deliberately eliminating all but one female character by Season 5 or 6, or declaring that none of them are ever allowed to have any role except helpless prisoner. This story is going to continue for 30+ seasons, and the vast majority of male characters will have strong, powerful, important roles for many many seasons before they die. I do NOT think it's unimportant that female characters are being treated drastically differently in this project from the male characters. It's extremely sexist writing and as a woman I do NOT want to write this way. I do NOT want to write a story that actively promotes and declares that women are useless, expendable accessories, whose only story role is to be killed or abused. I did not come here to write that kind of misogynistic filth. The very idea of writing something so disgusting and vile makes me sick. It's completely unacceptable. I don't care what excuses anyone comes up with for writing a misogynistic story. "But we have 1 or 2 strong women, only 99% of them are useless." is not an excuse either. There is no excuse for writing this way. None.

We started this by accident, but we need to undo it, not purposely double down on it.



MithLuin these are the concerns I want to convey to the Hosts:

1. Writing all women out of the story except Galadriel and Luthien is horrible and should not happen. If we're inventing a character who is never seen again and has no future story role whatsoever, then Maglor or Caranthir's son is a far better choice than anyone's wife. There is no sense in insisting that the character must be a canon character and have an important future story role, when we plan from the start that they'll never be seen again. This is extremely important to me.

2. We have roles for female characters to play. Real story roles, not just throwing them away as expenable decorations. We need healers and Besain. Most healers and all Besain are female. Women should also be scholars and counselors, who are respected by their male peers. There is no excuse for writing women as nothing but useless, expendable garbage.

3. It is also very important that we have Elves living in Mithrim in this season. NOT just Annael by himself. At most he should be an exile from an actual, real, genuine community of Elves. If there's no known Elven community in Mithrim Rian won't even know that one solitary hermit is hiding in the mountains whom nobody has seen or heard from in centuries. Furthermore Tuor needs to be raised by a community, not by one raving lunatic alone in the woods. Nobody who grows up that way would be emotionally stable or capable of functioning in society. Tuor needs to grow up stable and sane and functional, not a dysfunctional mess like Maeglin. Tuor cannot be raised by somebody like Eol. Making Annael the only Sinda ever in all of Mithrim is a horrible, awful idea. Destroying Tuor's story should not be the plan. Creating plot holes should never be on the table.

If he only ever lives on the Falas then he’d go in exile there, like Maglor. It’s absurd for him to cross multiple mountain ranges. And he can’t betray Hithum at the Dagor Aglareb if he doesn’t live there.

Corey drive to eliminate Sindar from Mithrim at any cost is counterproductive and unnecessary. We’re already showing them immigrate to Nevrast, we can show Mithrim at the same time. Having them in Mithrim will not somehow ruin the story.

4. Morgoth needs some actual initiative. All of his actions can't be suggestions initiated by his underlings. He needs to be able to think up his own plans, too. Right now, the plan is for everything to be suggested by Sauron or Gothmog, and Morgoth to just go along with their ideas. That's out of character. Morgoth is a horrible dictator, not a democratic representative who acts primarily on the requests of his constituents.

5. Luthien has no political ambition and little interest in going outside Doriath and hanging out with Noldor out there. She isn't at the Mereth Aderthad. She befriends Galadriel, is an active and persistent voice for reconciliation with the Noldor and moderation in the response to the Kinslaying, and she does the other cool things that we've been suggesting on this thread. Helping her people deal with the fallout of the Kinslaying reveal. Reminding them always, what they have to fight for. Etc. (I can't summarize it all now.)

6. Please, give us more time after March 8 to get the storylines all coordinated!
2. I agree. The main reason I chose Curufin’s wife was that she was the only one that I’m sure existed in text, since we hear nothing of Maglor or Caranthir’s family. I might regret suggesting Curufin’s wife...

4. I thought the Dragon plan was Morgoth’s idea.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
A few quick comments...

The story, particularly among the Noldor, has *many* more male characters than female characters. Some of the women stayed behind in Valinor (Nerdanel, Anairë, Amarië, Indis). Some were killed in Season 3 (Earwen, Irimë, Elenwë). We are left with Galadriel, Aredhel, and Idril. Aredhel will die in Season 5. Obviously, we're investing a good deal of effort into telling Galadriel's story. No complaints there! And of course it's true that we'll be killing off some of the male Noldor in these early seasons as well. Aegnor and Angrod won't survive the Dagor Bragollach at the end of Season 5. Both Fëanor and Amrod died in Season 3. But....we'll have plenty of princes left. We're not eliminating half of them at this point in the story!

The issue, such as it is, is that when we look for a character we 'need' for later, it's almost always a male character. The female characters are by and large seen as unnecessary. And the main reason for that is that we've left the roles of elven women largely undefined and nebulous, rather than giving them a place in the story. If we now develop the roles of Besain and Healers (and Heralds), we'll have opportunities to fit these women into their societies. We'll know what they're working on, what they are needed for, how they pass off their tasks to someone else, etc. They're not just 'there'. That's important.

Because...if they're just 'there'....the only part of their story we will wind up telling is the part where they died. And...that's not really great storytelling.

We have four elves being made captive this Season: Eldalotë, Annael, Curufin's wife, and Rog. Two women, two men. Both of the women are going to be destroyed by the experience, though, while Annael and Rog will 'escape' and go on to play a role in the story. The way we're treating them is different, because we can safely assume that we don't need Eldalotë or Curufin's wife later. That tendency to write female characters out of the story is one we want to examine more closely.


There is a concept called 'fridging' that is a common complaint of comic book storytelling. This is when a female character (typically the protagonist's girlfriend) is killed off to create an impetus for that character to go out for revenge. The complaint is not that a mafia-style villain wouldn't target someone's family or loved ones - of course they would. The problem with this is that the female character never got a chance to be a character; it's only her death as a motivation for someone else that makes it into the story. If she was a real character and part of the story all along, and then she's suddenly/horribly killed, that's not fridging. It's fridging if really all you know about her is that she's "so-and-so's girlfriend" and she's more-or-less killed up front.

Sure, we are going to kill off a lot of people in this story. But if no one can describe what a character is like before we off them? That suggests that they were never a character in the first place. Let's flesh out roles appropriately.
 
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Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I've watched all but 20 mins of #8, I may or may not be able to finish tonight, but I really want to add that I'm not at all happy with the decision that Celeborn is going to tell Annael everything Galadriel told him in confidence. The whole point of that story was to show that Celeborn is trustworthy and respects and loves Galadriel, not that he lies to her and then callously betrays her huge act of trust at his first opportunity. That turns their romance from an example of trust and love into an awful, contemptuous, destructive betrayal. Please, please no. Don't make Celeborn screw over Galadriel like a total creep, and don't make Galadriel a dupe who ignorantly marries somebody who treats her like this. Is she so clueless that she still hasn't figured it out 7000 years later in the Third Age when she's still happily married to him? We're going to make Galadriel that monumentally clueless, gullible, and easily exploited? (Wow, Luthien is the only strong woman left in the show at this point, now that Galadriel is an easily abused fool.)

Also, Annael doesn't live anywhere near Doriath. The Elves who go to Nevrast and Mithrim need to be from the Falathrim. This doesn't even make any sense, besides destroying the entire point of that moment between Celeborn and Galadriel. This trashes the whole storyline we wrote for Galadriel and Celeborn. And it's totally unnecessary. Morgoth is far more likely to learn about the Kinslaying from Noldorin captives, obviously.

We took a lot of effort to write Celeborn and Galadriel's romance story arc. There's no reason to wantonly ruin it for this.


The main reason I chose Curufin’s wife
I'm not upset at you, Ange1. Corey made a requirement that wives have to be used for all the Never seen again/totally broken forever roles. And I don't think he or anyone realized how messed up this is becoming. I don't think the Hosts mean it on purpose. But we just can't do it this way, it's too awful.

Having 2 men and 2 women captured wouldn't be a problem, if that wasn't a large proportion of our female cast "fridged". Some characters will die without much character development - we did it to Denethor and kind of Amrod. But this should not happen to the majority of our females. And it's a huge contrast when the majority of male characters are fully developed, many seasons before they die.

Curufin's wife (we haven't even named her!) and Eldalote can't be developed as characters if they're captured right after the Mereth Aderthad and never seen again. That's clearly fridging.


Male Elves -- not going to try counting.

Female Elves --
Celeborn's mom - unnamed, current plan is that she was fridged in Season 1
Miriel - developed character, had to die
Nerdanel - developed character, had to stay behind
Indis - had to stay behind, I don't know how much she was developed
Anaire - had to stay behind, I don't know how much she was developed
Irime - written out, I don't know how much she was developed
Elenwe - had to die, but got almost no characterization
Curufin's wife - fridged, probably won't be characterized
Eldalote - fridged, probably won't be characterized
Maglor's wife - unnamed, and the current plan is she doesn't even exist
Caranthir's wife - unnamed, and the current plan is she doesn't even exist
Aredhel - has to die next season, hopefully will be developed before then, but I find it hard to call a willing abuse victim "strong"
Finduilas - has to die, hopefully will be developed before then
Luthien - strong woman
Galadriel - strong woman? or gullible fool easily manipulated and exploited by Celeborn?
Celeborn's sister - ?

So of 16 female Elves, 1 hasn't been born yet, and 12 will be written out by mid-Season 5. That's 75% of all our female characters, eliminated... 1/5 of the way through the show? 1/6? And we can't introduce any more women, because "there are too many characters already" according to Corey.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I have an idea for Celeborn and Galadriel: maybe he marries her in spite of Thingol’s anger over the Kinslaying and this is why he and Galadriel are put out of focus for the rest of the First Age?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
This is the first time I am hearing the suggestion that Celeborn tell Annael about the Kinslaying, so I'm a bit confused where that came from. Did I miss something? I thought we made a point of suggesting that Annael be one of Círdan's people. It was suggested that he might be a friend of Celeborn's, but recall that at the opening of Season 4, Celeborn is with Círdan. Also, even if someone did want to have Annael overhear Celeborn and Galadriel's conversation or something, timing and geography would not work out to make that possible. Celeborn and Galadriel discuss the Kinslaying some time after she moves to Doriath after the Mereth Aderthad. Annael would be in the north if he's going to be captured, not in Doriath.

The whole point of including the segment where Galadriel tells Celeborn before it's general knowledge is that Celeborn keeps the confidence and declines to tell Thingol, his king. So...he's not telling anyone else either, obviously. And we will have a moment where Thingol finds out that Celeborn knew and didn't tell him, which should have consequences.

I thought that the suggestion was that Sauron could plant his lies in Annael, and send Annael back to spread rumors among the Sindar (which...makes more sense than the other way around, but does depend greatly on timing).
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
This is the first time I am hearing the suggestion that Celeborn tell Annael about the Kinslaying, so I'm a bit confused where that came from. Did I miss something? I thought we made a point of suggesting that Annael be one of Círdan's people. It was suggested that he might be a friend of Celeborn's, but recall that at the opening of Season 4, Celeborn is with Círdan. Also, even if someone did want to have Annael overhear Celeborn and Galadriel's conversation or something, timing and geography would not work out to make that possible. Celeborn and Galadriel discuss the Kinslaying some time after she moves to Doriath after the Mereth Aderthad. Annael would be in the north if he's going to be captured, not in Doriath.

The whole point of including the segment where Galadriel tells Celeborn before it's general knowledge is that Celeborn keeps the confidence and declines to tell Thingol, his king. So...he's not telling anyone else either, obviously. And we will have a moment where Thingol finds out that Celeborn knew and didn't tell him, which should have consequences.

I thought that the suggestion was that Sauron could plant his lies in Annael, and send Annael back to spread rumors among the Sindar (which...makes more sense than the other way around, but does depend greatly on timing).
So, how is Annael, who has been said to be a leader amongst the Sindar of Mithrim, going to attract followers if he’s a known traitor? Does he exile himself and it is a private matter? Is he exiled publicly? If the latter, there’s going to have to be a good reason for other Elves to go near him if he’s a known traitor.

Am I wrong?
 
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