Session 4.09 & 4.10- Overarching Storylines: Hildorien, Dragons, and Lúthien

Corey says this about the wives being perfect for killing them off because they have no role in the story. And he says that Annael tells the Kinslaying to Sauron because Celeborn told Annael after he heard it from Galadriel, and that's how the Enemies know ab0ut the Kinslaying.

He says both near the end of the 2nd hour of Session #8.


Edit: spelling
 
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Hopefully we'll discuss the roles of the Noldor women on Friday.

It is certainly true that Tolkien didn't give these characters any role in the story (he mostly didn't even give them names, except for Edhellos/Eldalotë). You have to go digging through notes to even verify if some of these guys were married. But to be fair, there are other characters who 'barely' have a role - Aegnor is a name on a family tree and someone who holds Dorthonion and then dies in the Dagor Bragollach in the published Silmarillion. If it weren't for Andreth, we wouldn't have any specific role for him, either. But...Andreth will be in our project, and thus Aegnor will be a character/ have a storyline.

We eliminated Amrod not only because of Tolkien's idea that he be killed in the burning of the ships, but because it was possible to do so without having any real impact on the rest of the story (outside the character of Amras, and to a lesser extent, the other brothers). Obviously, we'd have a harder time deciding that one of the princes of the Noldor gets randomly locked up in Angband indefinitely at this point in the story. We *could* do that to Angrod (after the Kinslaying reveal), because, well...we don't need him later. But of course he's meant to die in the Dagor Bragollach, not be taken prisoner.

Oh. Wait. WAIT...

We need Angrod and/or Aegnor to be killed by a balrog in the Dagor Bragollach, but we've already decided that Aegnor is definitely killed in that way. What if....Angrod is defeated but taken alive, and *he* becomes the prisoner until the end of the Age?

There would be an obvious parallel to Húrin (taken captive) and his brother Huor (killed) during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad if we treated Angrod and Aegnor this way. And then, if Angrod helps Gwindor escape, he'll be sending him back to help Orodreth out in Nargothrond. Also, because the audience definitely knows who Angrod is, they'd be more likely to feel the horror of him being a prisoner for so long.

What do people think of that? We could replace Curufin's wife being made captive this season with Angrod being made captive at the end of next season.
 
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I don’t know. Is it too much tampering with canon since Angrod is KIA in the Dagor Bragollach not captures and is it required that we have an Elf stuck indefinitely in Angband?
 
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'Too much tampering with canon' = doesn't work, or goes against the general spirit of the story of the Silmarillion. I don't think this suggestion violates those things. It does contradict the published Silmarillion, of course.

Since Angrod is supposed to die in that scene, having him live but be made captive and unable to act in any way might be...not that big of a change. The elves could even think he's dead, but not find the body (thus making the version in the published Silmarillion the 'official' story).

I was just thinking that we kill off Amrod in Season 3, and Aredhel in Season 5, and then both Aegnor and Angrod at the end of Season 5. Slowly starting to chip away at the Houses of the Noldor....


But yes - we have to have at least one elf made captive and never escape, or else it seems like Angband is a revolving door, not the Hells of Iron.
 
Corey's suggestion that Annael should hear about the Kinslaying from Celeborn confused me a bit, I couldn't see how that would work. It would change the whole Celeborn-Galadriel process, in a bad way. Annael could be involved somehow, but then it would have to be based on less information than Celeborn has. So maybe Annael should not be Celeborn's guy.
 
I'm not wild on using Angrod, I'd rather use a great-grandson of Finwe, but Angrod's much better than getting rid of yet another a wife. If we used Angrod, I suggest that he dies either in the War of Wrath, or in an escape attempt, rather than coming out alive after the First Age ends.


I forgot Amarie, Idril, and Earwen. So now we have:

Female Elves --
Celeborn's mom - unnamed, not characterized at all, current plan is that she was fridged in Season 1
Miriel - developed character, had to die
Nerdanel - developed character, had to stay behind
Indis - had to stay behind, I don't know how much she was developed
Anaire - had to stay behind, I don't know how much she was developed
Amarie - had to stay behind, I don't know how much she was developed or if she was even in the show
Earwen - had to stay behind, was killed instead, I don't know how much she was developed
Irime - written out, I don't know how much she was developed
Elenwe - had to die, but got almost no characterization
Edhellos - fridged, probably won't be characterized
Curufin's wife - fridged, probably won't be characterized
Maglor's wife - unnamed, and the current plan is she doesn't even exist
Caranthir's wife - unnamed, and the current plan is she doesn't even exist
Aredhel - has to die next season, hopefully will be developed before then, but I find it hard to call a willing abuse victim "strong"
Finduilas - has to die, hopefully will be developed before then
Luthien - strong woman
Idril - strong woman
Galadriel - strong woman? or gullible fool easily manipulated and exploited by Celeborn?
Celeborn's sister - ?

19 female Elves, 1 hasn't been born yet, and 14 will be written out by mid-Season 5. That's 74% of all our female characters, eliminated very early.

Instead we could give Celeborn's mother and all three Feanorian wives actual story roles, names, and personalities. We could introduce Irime's daughter and Fingon's wife, and give them actual roles, names, and personalities. We could give Edhellos a role and personality, and maybe not kill her off either. We could have 5-6 more female characters for several seasons, and give them a reason to exist.
 
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I think, to the main narrative, dead Angrod and eternally captive Angrod provide the exact same experience - there once was an Angrod available in the world to do stuff, and now thanks to the enemy there is not. The rest of the world probably doesn't even know the difference. He doesn't come back from the battle, like a lot of people. Missing, assumed dead. To the chroniclers of the Second Age, his date of death is probably written as the year of the Sudden Flame, because they probably don't even know about his captivity (our frame conceit is just that, a conceit - things happen in our stories that the people in the frame would have no way of knowing). Dead or captured has exactly zero impact on the main story.

To the Angband narrative, eternally captive Angrod provides us with some great opportunities. Here is a character we already know, in a role we created that needs a character to fill it. He's probably hobbled in some way (missing half a leg maybe?) that prevents his easy escape. I like it a lot. It's an excellent step forward for us.
 
I hadn't noticed the bit about Annael - I think it's critical for our story that Celeborn never tells anyone about the Kinslaying until after it is revealed to Thingol. It just doesn't work any other way, or at least it doesn't work without a ground-up redesign of the whole thing. There is a brief window, perhaps, after it is revealed to Thingol but before it becomes common knowledge, where Celeborn could reveal something to someone, but I really don't think it's necessary at any point.
 
If Angrod were maimed, that would give us a reason to have him help Gwindor escape, rather than escape himself. We don't have to do that, but whatever injury took him down on the battlefield could have been a serious one, and never properly healed.

If Sauron learns the full truth of the kinslaying after Thingol, then he could hear it from any elf who has heard the news, and Celeborn would not be honor-bound to keep that secret after the news is out. Celeborn does have all the details, which most of the other Sindar lack, so if he had a conversation with his friend Annael after the Kinslaying reveal about what happened in Alqualondë, that could work....but certainly Celeborn cannot betray Galadriel's confidence, and the timing and geography likely wouldn't work out for that suggestion to be feasible.


Faelivrin, for your list - Indis is a fully developed character. She's introduced early; she's Ingwë's daughter and she's Míriel's best friend. We see her trying to reconcile with Fëanor throughout Season 2. She appears in the beginning of Season 3 to grieve Finwë, and after her last gesture towards Fëanor is rejected, she returns to the Vanyar. Amarië is more a cameo role - she appears in two scenes with Finrod (at the Feast at the Darkening of Valinor, and in flashback when he's remembering their farewell). So, she does appear, and she does have lines, but it's a very minor role. Other characters (like Lenwë's wife) appear in scenes, but have no lines and so exist, but don't count as even minor characters. Celeborn's mom was never named nor appeared on the show. Celeborn was introduced as a teenager, and the only relative of his we met was Elwë.

Female Elves (only those characters with lines)
The distinction between 'major' and 'minor' character isn't always clear to me. Some characters appear in only 1-2 episodes, but are involved in the main plot of those episodes. They would certainly be included in the cast of characters and play a role. But....then they are gone. Other characters appear in multiple episodes, but as supporting characters rather than main characters. All characters listed (even minor ones) are characters the audience should know by name. Background/silent roles are not included here.
Season 2
Nurwen - minor character - left behind
Míriel - major - dies
Míriel's sister - minor - left behind
Indis - major
Iminyë - minor - reborn
Nerdanel - major
Findis - minor
Irimë - major supporting character
Anairë - major supporting
Earwen - major
Elenwë - minor
Galadriel - major
Aredhel - major
Idril (child) - minor

Season 3
Indis - leaves in Episode 1
Nerdanel - leaves in Episode 1
Findis - leaves in Episode 1
Anairë - final appearance in Episode 2
Irimë - dies in Episode 2
Earwen - dies in Episode 2
Surviving female characters among the Noldor:
Galadriel
Aredhel
Idril (child)
Elenwë - dies on Helcaraxë
Female elves in Beleriand:
Lúthien

Season 4 (proposed)
Galadriel
Aredhel
Idril
Lúthien
Meril (Sinda)
Celeborn's sister (Green Elf)
Potential wives: Maglor's, Curufin's, Caranthir's, Fingon's, Angrod's (Eldalótë/Edhellos)
Irimë's daughter (mother or sister of Glorfindel)

Hopefully, we will be able to work on the Season 4 list during tomorrow's session. I have been saying for some time now that if we don't find roles/stories for the wives, then they will either be killed off, or not appear on the show. So...let's find some roles!
 
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I like the idea that Angrod helps Gwindor and perhaps others but then the ones who escape could tell about him.

I suggest that his identity has to be unknown for those who escape. Perhaps he’s burned in dagor Bragollach, and unrecognisable. Or he hides his identity for some reason.
 
I'm feeling villainous for even contemplating all the hideous disfiguring injuries I'm imagining for poor Angrod.

Perhaps he's unrecognizable, and chooses not to identify himself because he doesn't want a Fingon to foolishly come rescue him (or he's worried that he doesn't even have a Fingon among the remaining princes to even make the attempt).

Then there's this dimly rumoured mystery Elf in Angband, that the survivors barely hear about, and they can't identify.
 
I'd wish to also propose that a son of Maglor or Caranthir (rather than one of their wives) is taken and never seen again, as a request. It would help explain why (X) has a wife but no famous children. He likely would be especially closely watched -- as a descendant of Feanor he'd be likely to have far juicier secrets of craft than even other Noldor. And this would give us a chance to develop both [Maglor or Caranthir] and his wife as characters. And it would increase the feeling of Maglor that he has failed his loved ones -- first his brother, then his son. (Surely there is some merit in this proposal?)

But yes we could use Angrod. (We can even use both.) I'm not eager to come up with lots of tortures or disfigurements though. (Gwindor was unrecognizeable to all except Finduilas, and he presumably wasn't burned all over.)

How poignent is it that he would help Gwindor escape and send him to his son Orodreth? Surely he'd want to send a message or something. Well, then that would undo the "historians think he died in battle" concept. Maybe people who have no hope of escape would rather their loved ones believe they're in Mandos instead of Hell. 🙁


MithLuin said:
If Sauron learns the full truth of the kinslaying after Thingol, then he could hear it from any elf who has heard the news, and Celeborn would not be honor-bound to keep that secret after the news is out. Celeborn does have all the details, which most of the other Sindar lack, so if he had a conversation with his friend Annael after the Kinslaying reveal about what happened in Alqualondë, that could work....but certainly Celeborn cannot betray Galadriel's confidence, and the timing and geography likely wouldn't work out for that suggestion to be feasible.
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But the other question is how Celeborn, in Doriath, is hanging out all the time with a guy who lives first with Cirdan and then in Mithrim. It doesn't make sense.
 
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At the beginning of Season 4, Celeborn, Círdan, and Annael are all in the same place - Mithrim, meeting the Noldor. It's quite possible that if they were friends they'd make effort to see one another, or that Annael would be travelling between the north and Doriath for reasons of his own or bearing messages or visiting family or really anything. Celeborn, as Thingol's secretary of state (in function), would have reasons to make diplomatic trips abroad as well.

But realistically, I don't think that Celeborn and Annael will have any opportunity to discuss the Kinslaying with one another.

Sauron doesn't know *what* truth he's trying to ferret out, but he smells a rat. He knows that there is something up, that the Noldor are hiding something. He doesn't know what, and honestly, from the point of view of Morgoth, the Doom of Mandos is way more significant than the kinslaying. But...Sauron is trying to sow mistrust between the Sindar and Noldor - the Kinslaying is the perfect grist. So, any hint of that is something he'd run with or even try to invent on his own. Can captives resist his questioning techniques for long? We know he's....a very persuasive and tricky questioner. So, I imagine he gets someone to break and tell him under duress. I agree that it's most likely a Noldo.

I am not sure how much sense it makes to invent a child, just to introduce them and then make them captive and subtract them from the story again, but I will certainly suggest that we give Caranthir or Maglor a son (cousin to Celebrimbor) who would serve as the captive-who-is-never-rescued. This would....potentially cloud the Oath. Morgoth would be in the perfect position to demand that the Fëanoreans stand down, or he'll make life a living hell for whoever's son. But presumably the same thing would be true if he had one of their wives as prisoner. They aren't going to stand down, so.....
 
MithLuin said:
At the beginning of Season 4, Celeborn, Círdan, and Annael are all in the same place - Mithrim, meeting the Noldor. It's quite possible that if they were friends they'd make effort to see one another, or that Annael would be travelling between the north and Doriath for reasons of his own or bearing messages or visiting family or really anything. Celeborn, as Thingol's secretary of state (in function), would have reasons to make diplomatic trips abroad as well.

But realistically, I don't think that Celeborn and Annael will have any opportunity to discuss the Kinslaying with one another.

Sauron doesn't know *what* truth he's trying to ferret out, but he smells a rat. He knows that there is something up, that the Noldor are hiding something. He doesn't know what, and honestly, from the point of view of Morgoth, the Doom of Mandos is way more significant than the kinslaying. But...Sauron is trying to sow mistrust between the Sindar and Noldor - the Kinslaying is the perfect grist. So, any hint of that is something he'd run with or even try to invent on his own. Can captives resist his questioning techniques for long? We know he's....a very persuasive and tricky questioner. So, I imagine he gets someone to break and tell him under duress. I agree that it's most likely a Noldo.

I am not sure how much sense it makes to invent a child, just to introduce them and then make them captive and subtract them from the story again, but I will certainly suggest that we give Caranthir or Maglor a son (cousin to Celebrimbor) who would serve as the captive-who-is-never-rescued. This would....potentially cloud the Oath. Morgoth would be in the perfect position to demand that the Fëanoreans stand down, or he'll make life a living hell for whoever's son. But presumably the same thing would be true if he had one of their wives as prisoner. They aren't going to stand down, so.....
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Caranthir: Added motivation, would help explain why he is so moody.

Maglor has potential in the future; maybe he sees a bit of this boy in Elrond and Elros?
 
MithLuin said:
But realistically, I don't think that Celeborn and Annael will have any opportunity to discuss the Kinslaying with one another.
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I just realized that by the time the Kinslaying is revealed, Annael may already be in exile.

MithLuin said:
from the point of view of Morgoth, the Doom of Mandos is way more significant than the kinslaying.
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That's a very good point, and significant enough that we may want to show the scene when Morgoth finds out about it. Eventually he will find out (or simply realize) that the Valar have largely abandoned the Elves and Men, and be very happy.

What are the chances that this even comes out along with the Kinslaying, vs. being known only to the Noldor? Is it something that Noldor would admit to Sindarin best friends/lovers eventually? Is it something that would become generally known among the Sindar?

MithLuin said:
I am not sure how much sense it makes to invent a child, just to introduce them and then make them captive and subtract them from the story again, but I will certainly suggest that we give Caranthir or Maglor a son (cousin to Celebrimbor) who would serve as the captive-who-is-never-rescued.
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Thanks Marie. I think it makes as much sense as introducing a wife who barely exists just to 'fridge' her -- in both cases, the well-known character is the relative left behind, wondering if they'll ever see their loved on again, agonizing over their suffering and fate, wondering if there's anything they could do or could have done...

The advantage is that it doesn't change the life story of a character with a known story. I know the Hosts are certain that adding any characters will ruin everything, but I'm going to mention to them that excellent shows like Firefly do have minor characters that only appear in 1-2 episodes, and they don't suddenly jump the shark.

MithLuin said:
This would....potentially cloud the Oath. Morgoth would be in the perfect position to demand that the Fëanoreans stand down, or he'll make life a living hell for whoever's son. But presumably the same thing would be true if he had one of their wives as prisoner. They aren't going to stand down, so.....
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It doesn't seem that it would be any different if they have Maglor's wife, his sister-in-law, his son, or his brother. This already happened in a way, and the Feanorians believed they couldn't abandon the Oath, no matter what. (We could even use the opportunity to emphasize that, but maybe we made it clear enough already with Maedhros' captivity.) But Maedhros is also going to point out that Morgoth won't keep his word regardless of what anyone does -- and his brothers already knew this before he was rescued.

The advantage of using both a Feanorian and another person like Angrod is to emphasize that most prisoners never escape. We don't have to ever specify their fate(s), except that when the War of Wrath is over they aren't found alive. *shudder*

What if Angrod and Gwindor recognize each other? Depending on how old Gwindor and Finduilas are when they're betrothed, her grandfather may have been around at the time. Maybe Angrod even asks Gwindor to let Orodreth think his father died, for his piece of mind.
 
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I'm finishing listening to the postcast #8 and it occurred to me that we're frontloading the treachery pretty early. Having the Eldar discover so quickly that captives are untrustworthy cuts short the option for people like Rog to escape and be accepted. By not slowing down this treachery reveal and stretching it into Season 5, we're squishing the concept into a shorter period of time than it has in the books, not giving it much time to develop. Basically, captives are taken, and within a few decades nobody trusts former captives anymore? The discovery of the treachery and the development of suspicion between the Elves isn't gradual.

I think maybe developing it more slowly and delaying the first treachery reveals could be better? At least we might want to consider the pros and cons of rushing vs. slowly developing the treachery concept. What if one person is treacherous this season, but the second person is treacherous next season (even if they escape earlier), so it appears to be a fluke at first, and only begins looking like a trend or likelihood over time?



Lastly, I gotta point out that Corey is mistaken about the Spell of Bottomless Dread being required to enslave somebody who is in chains. Whips and chains work on people. Elves such as Gwindor are explicitly stated to be manual labor slaves who retain their free will and escape for real. Those who succumb to the Spell are really a minority of the prisoners, especially the Noldor. Surely they'd all be used for sowing treachery because there aren't all that many of them available.


...I'm realizing part of the reason I have so much trouble understanding Corey is that he constantly interrupts his own sentences.
 
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Yes, I think it would be best to save Annael's spying and treachery reveal for Season 5, for exactly those reasons. Everyone knows that something is wrong with Edhellos (she acts crazy), so her Trojan Horse behavior would not fuel distrust of all former captives. Annael's on the other hand....

So, yes, I don't want to squeeze this all into Season 4.
 
How much damage do we want Glaurung to do?...

And how much do we want to change the text?
 
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