Session 4.09 & 4.10- Overarching Storylines: Hildorien, Dragons, and Lúthien

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
This is basically the biggest problem (in my mind) of all of the First Age. Whither Luthien, outside the Beren and Luthien story? There is no pre-canned explanation for what she is up to - she's not doing other important stuff, she's not job shadowing her father OR her mother, she's just invisible until the moment she pops up in the narrative. We have to craft a way for her to exist, and to do stuff, in a way that makes her not look ineffective, and yet doesn't change a story upon which she canonically has zero impact.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
This is basically the biggest problem (in my mind) of all of the First Age. Whither Luthien, outside the Beren and Luthien story? There is no pre-canned explanation for what she is up to - she's not doing other important stuff, she's not job shadowing her father OR her mother, she's just invisible until the moment she pops up in the narrative. We have to craft a way for her to exist, and to do stuff, in a way that makes her not look ineffective, and yet doesn't change a story upon which she canonically has zero impact.
How should we resolve this? We shouldn’t have Luthien look like a brainless beauty like the picture from The Simpsons suggests and can fend for herself if need be, and yet she shouldn’t have a great impact on the plot.

As it stands, until Beren comes to Doriath, she’s as useful as a screen door on a battleship ;). So we gotta make something up.
 
Last edited:

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
So, what if we gave Luthien a job that was not a political one. A job she loves and is amazing at, but does not involve her in international politics? This means there is no reason for her to be at court all the time, involved in every decision, or considered for every mission.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So, what if we gave Luthien a job that was not a political one. A job she loves and is amazing at, but does not involve her in international politics? This means there is no reason for her to be at court all the time, involved in every decision, or considered for every mission.
Maybe she’s a healer?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Maybe she’s a healer?
Or a teacher. The issue that I'm seeing some folks have is that these are traditionally feminine professions. My question is: "So what?" Why devalue these occupations because they aren't fighty or politicky. It seems to me part of the same misconception that leads people to object to Eowyn's choice at the end of RoTK. She is not made lesser for choosing a "traditionally feminine" role any more than a male warrior is greater than a male healer. In Tolkien, sometimes they are the same person.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Or a teacher. The issue that I'm seeing some folks have is that these are traditionally feminine professions. My question is: "So what?" Why devalue these occupations because they aren't fighty or politicky. It seems to me part of the same misconception that leads people to object to Eowyn's choice at the end of RoTK. She is not made lesser for choosing a "traditionally feminine" role any more than a male warrior is greater than a male healer. In Tolkien, sometimes they are the same person.
Well, they do say in RoTK that “The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known." So that’s a plus.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Change of topics: How are we planning to portray the Fall of Men, if we show it at all?

P.S.: Did you get my reference to Back to the Future?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
For next session (March 8th):

Problem of Glaurung

Corey Olsen raised some of the questions Haerangil has been asking. We know we want Glaurung to get out in the Season Finale, but to be 'too young' to be effective in battle. How does that happen?

After the failure of the Dagor Aglareb, Morgoth recognizes that orcs are not much use and needs to make a new creature to fight elves. So...dragons.

What is the starting material? Are they creatures imbued with spirits or corrupted eagles or what?

But more importantly...why does Glaurung escape? This seems to be a stupid idea. Does someone mistakenly think Glaurung is ready? Whose foolish mistake is this? (Glaurung is no fool.) If this isn't a foolish action, what's the clever reason for it?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
For next session (March 8th):

Problem of Glaurung

Corey Olsen raised some of the questions Haerangil has been asking. We know we want Glaurung to get out in the Season Finale, but to be 'too young' to be effective in battle. How does that happen?

After the failure of the Dagor Aglareb, Morgoth recognizes that orcs are not much use and needs to make a new creature to fight elves. So...dragons.

What is the starting material? Are they creatures imbued with spirits or corrupted eagles or what?

But more importantly...why does Glaurung escape? This seems to be a stupid idea. Does someone mistakenly think Glaurung is ready? Whose foolish mistake is this? (Glaurung is no fool.) If this isn't a foolish action, what's the clever reason for it?
I’ve suggested that Gothmog is involved, either that he decides to let him out for a test run kind of like “let’s play with the new toy” or that Glaurung manipulates him into letting him out, and we don’t know that until next season when Gothmog is in the doghouse, per se.

I’m not really sure why Corey is so dead-set on Glaurung being smart right off the bat. He can have a low cunning, sure, but he doesn’t need to be the grade-A chess master that he is during The Children of Hurin at this point in the story. Teens do dumb things, I’ve done plenty of dumb things as a teenager.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I thought of Rumil here... but a female? Why not...
We did intentionally leave Rumil behind in Tirion. He was not in favor of the rebellion. His 'heir' in Middle-earth will be Pengolod of Gondolin, who obviously would not fit for this role. Gondolin has a lot of minor characters. I know we'll want Ecthelion and Glorfindel this season, but I'm not sure when we plan to bring in the others. We'll have the opportunity with Aredhel leaving in Season 5 to see more of the day-to-day life in Gondolin, and of course someone will have to go with her.
 
Last edited:

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
I’ve suggested that Gothmog is involved, either that he decides to let him out for a test run kind of like “let’s play with the new toy” or that Glaurung manipulates him into letting him out, and we don’t know that until next season when Gothmog is in the doghouse, per se.

I’m not really sure why Corey is so dead-set on Glaurung being smart right off the bat. He can have a low cunning, sure, but he doesn’t need to be the grade-A chess master that he is during The Children of Hurin at this point in the story. Teens do dumb things, I’ve done plenty of dumb things as a teenager.
Yes, I think you could steer it toward a combo of overconfidence and inexperience, rather than foolishness. I mean, it's clearly foolish in hindsight, but at the time I could imagine a confident, clever, mighty Glaurung; it's not like he has a roadmap of how he's going to grow - he's fairly unprecedented, and as far as he knows he's *already* peak-Glaurung, so it's not obvious for him to consider himself "half-grown" or "unready".
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Also, I'm doing the thing that frustrates me when other people do it - commenting on the outcome of a session before listening to the session. I'ma clamp down on it until I can listen. Haha
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Haha, no worries, we haven't talked about Glaurung at all yet! That's still a topic for 'next time'.

Corey wants to expand the timeline.
Welllllll, not really. More what he did was acknowledge that time is rather fluid and just 'passes' in large chunks in the latter half of the Season. In the early part of the Season, there's very specific dates for things, and everything from Episode 1 to Episode 8 happens over the course of about 58 years. Then, the last 5 episodes take another 200 years. So, cities are being built, military-action-wise the land is at peace, and in the end, no real generational/mortal issues arise... so the audience is only going to have a vague impression of 'a lot of time passed.'

Whether that 'a lot of time' was 200 years or 300 years wouldn't be obvious or clear to the audience unless we go to great pains to point that out to them, and....we might not. That's all he said; that we might not make a huge point of letting the audience know *exactly* how much time is passing there. Once Men arrive on the scene, we'll have more urgent need to let the audience know about the generations. For now, we can still fudge/be vague about the passage of time between the Dagor Aglareb and the season Finale (which we all know is set in FA 260).
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Regarding Lúthien, what I primarily have already on her is that we want her to have a role, but we don't want her to be window dressing OR to spoil her later awesomeness.

So, she can't just be dancing in the woods. But she also can't be outside of Doriath winning battles.

The balance seems to be for her to have a quieter role that maybe not everyone perceives. I did like the suggestion (I think it was Eliza's) that she could 'calm things down' after the Kinslaying reveal. That's the kind of shocking news that gets everyone throwing their arms up in the air and reacting loudly. Like, yes, it's a betrayal, but it's also horrible and unthinkable and a lot of other things. People aren't just in mourning over the deaths of the Teleri...they're angry at the Noldor (rightfully so!) and angry people aren't known for making the wisest choices. What the Sindar do...does not strike me as an angry response. It seems to be very considered. Recovering from that is a process - it's not just something you make a decision about and then never have to deal with or feel again. So, if we wanted to show her skill at healing, we could show her healing her people in that sense.

Her influence on Galadriel could be very positive. Galadriel is Melian's pupil, and it's not like Lúthien is sitting in on these lessons. Nor is it likely that Galadriel and Lúthien would have much in common or be 'natural' friends. But if we're showing Galadriel go from almost completely shut down and horrified over what her people have done (and her own ambition's complacency in at least going along with part of it), we can show her time in Menegroth as a time of healing not just because of her time with Melian and with Celeborn, but also with Lúthien. Lúthien may encourage her to create again, to trust that impulse in herself to 'sing of leaves, of leaves of gold.'

Morgoth (the Shadow) cannot create, only mock. Lúthien is very powerful, so we have shown flowers blooming at her feet and the halls of Menegroth filling with light as she danced into them, and her song (along with Daeron and Melian's) banishing spiders. Whatever we do with her this season (and next) should be in those veins.


But...specifics.
  • What does her relationship with Daeron look like? Does he try to woo her?
  • Does she have any 'adventures' or travels this season? Does she go to the Mereth Aderthad with Beleg and Mablung? Does she visit Nan Elmoth in the Eöl flashbacks? Something else?
  • Does she manage to thwart some plan of the villains? If Sauron has been working up to the Kinslaying reveal to spread division among the elves, is it her efforts that help them reconcile and move on as allies?
  • What happens when she meets her 'cousins' (Galadriel, Angrod, Finrod)?
  • Her use of magic?
As long as whatever role we give her builds on what we've already done (Lúthien as the champion of the arts and the heart of her father's realm), and lends itself to pointing in the direction of her adventures with Beren without giving any of that away, we'll be good.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Yes I like the direction of this. I think the strongest roles for her are to encourage the things that do happen (example: the healing of Galadriel), and discourage the things that could have happened but didn't (ie. a worse reaction by the Sindar to the Kinslaying reveal). That way her fingerprints are all over the narrative in the way that it actually plays out.

I have no idea how to go from this big picture down to actual events though. I would like to see her gently teasing Galadriel over her mood - not right away t first, but after she's had some time to heal. Teasing her in a friendly way, and coaxing her into singing of leaves of gold, would be a great way to get her to the next stage of recovery. Actually, could it even be Luthien who encourages G&C to head out East on their own?
 
Top