Session 4.11 - Season 4 Episode Outlines (Revisited)

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Sure, but what does it actually ADD to the story if we make up more of a background for him than...well Tolkien himself actually did? I still don't under stand that strong drive to tell so much about Glaurung before he is finally finished..
We aren't actually telling anything more than Tolkien did, to be honest. We still have no idea what he has been doing throughout the entire history of the universe. That he is a Maiar is a conclusion I immediately came to when I first read the Silmarillion, based on what Tolkien said about him. I didn't make that idea up. It just seemed a natural consequence of what had already been written. The question I have is: What other cool possibilities are being eliminated by specifying that Glaurung is a Maia? Could we suggest that Melkor is able to recruit outside Ainur from within Arda? Or could we suggest that he can create spirits himself? Or that he can amplify and dominate the spirits of Elves that significantly? I'm really not comfortable with any of these, and I am not sure that any of them are supported by the text in any way at all. So what are we missing? What are some other possibilities that don't break the world that would be given short shrift if we know that Glaurung is a Maia?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
That's not what i mean...

We know that 1. An evil spirit dwelt in Glaurung and 2. Morgoth made Glaurung. That is pretty much all we are told in the pubsil and i am fine with not knowing more...

If now we explicitly state that Morgoth takes a spirit and somehow warps a creature and places the spirit in it i feel we might get into trouble, because then we have to explain where that weird new spirit comes from, where he has been all of the time and so on... i do not think so much that it will touble us in a cosmological way, but i think it might take a kind of mysterious quality and surprise from the story.

I mean just think about... mprgoth already pretty much pulled Boldog out of nowhere... we know he has his fire, ice and shadow spirits, but he'll continuously come up with new things, first Balrogs, then Shadow spirits, then Vampires, then Cats, then Boldogs, then werewolves, now Dragons...
 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Well that’s partly why I as one suggestion wrote that M could return from the East with Glaurung. That could mean that we actually haven’t seen the dragon before that, and M could have met or developed Glaurung back East. Now I’m not saying it’s a perfect idea, I feel it kind of takes away something of the industrial workshop from Angband. But then, he’d still not be fully grown at that point.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I think I prefer that Morgoth selects the Maia that becomes Glaurung from Angband (perhaps takes him to Hildorien alongside Fankil) rather than outsourcing a more powerful creature hiding in Utumno or something like that and making a deal with the Devil to acquire his services. Morgoth is the Devil, he's supposed to be the source of all evil in Arda, not be subject to something more powerful.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I’m sorry but I’m not sure how you come to the conclusion that this was a suggestion. How do you mean?
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I mean I agree of course that M is the Devil. Glaurung wouldn’t be more powerful at all.

In Silmfilm, Angband is an old outpost part of the bigger Utumno complex. So a beast or spirit of Angband would probably be an old Utumno resident.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I’m sorry but I’m not sure how you come to the conclusion that this was a suggestion. How do you mean?
I know there were suggestions about Morgoth making a deal with the devil regarding Glaurung and I'm not on board with those.

I was trying to make my own suggestion on the matter, synthesizing parts of other suggestions. What I'm suggesting is that Morgoth go east with two Maiar (one being Fankil, who is left behind to keep the Men under control), and come back with the other as a quarter-way Glaurung (he's still growing by the time of his attack in FA 260). Perhaps he has his fire-breathing powers when Morgoth comes back from the East, then he's bigger in size by his attack in FA 260 with his skill at persuasion developing), and finally he's at his full size, his firepower is more widespread, and his manipulative abilities have developed all the way to mind control by the Dagor Bragollach).
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
That’s a fair suggestion. Still, I’m surprised by this talk about the Devil. Where is that discussion?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
We decided early on in this project to show the 'bad guys', while the published Silmarillion only tells parts of what concerns Morgoth and his people. This decision has consequences. The feeling one has about the Silmarillion story and the feelings one has about our version will not always be same. It is part of our adaption. I tend to argue for keeping of mystery, and keeping as close to the written text as possible. But the decsison to show what's going on in Angband has been made, and we can't just leave that storyline. I know that nobody is arguing that we should go that far, but that would be the extreme position in the stance some people seem to be taking. We can leave things out, but we have to show what the bad guys are doing. It's not about explaining or not explaining. Personally, I don't care if I understand everything in films I see. I love mystery. I could have been happy with a Silmfilm storyline with a pure elvish perspective, with the bad guys being totally mysterious and just showing up as horrible enemies from time to time. But that's not what we've agreed to do. We have decided to show their activities from the inside. Now that is a challenge; how do we make that interesting, exciting, thrilling? The challenge is extra hard in times where the Silmarillion has surprises. It will happen again next season, with the Dagor Bragollach. How do we make that surprise work? This season, the enemy is failing and doing all sorts of stuff that is successful to various degrees. They also do things in the East that we can't really show. So what is the overall picture of the bad guy activityu this season? They are failing and struggling. That's not very impressive. Their efforts will (except for the kidnappings) look unimpressive, at least to some degree.

In what way can we show Glaurung as a part of that overall picture without trivializing him or showing his powers too soon? What is the line that keeps the right balance? Not too small? Big and strong, but no fire-breathing? That's not a big discussion. We're really down to details in this part of the discussion, I think. It has to be possible to find a consensus. Another issue is the timing. My suggestion is that he is introduced in some form in episode 3 or 4, just before Morgoth learns of the awakening of the Men. He can then have started a Dragon project (struck a deal with an unwilling but power-hungry Glaurung-spririt, or something like that, we can work out the details) with just a general goal, but then he leaves because the new Children of Ilúvatar is obviously a priority. Putting the dragon project on hold will then not trivialize Glaurung at all, it is clearly less important. We can then show Glaurung showing impatience once or twice, that will be enough, probably once will be enough, and then he could manipulate Gothmog to start a battle. That would be a really big thing. If Morgoth then goes back to the dragon project, we can show perhaps some sign of a rapid development, before he escapes. That's all that is needed to give Glaurung an arch, in my opinion.
Here, about striking a deal with an unwilling but power-hungry Glaurung-spirit.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The entity making the 'deal with the devil' is the maia-who-becomes-Glaurung. Morgoth is, of course, the devil in that scenario (as in most scenarios), and the power being offered is his own power to a Maia (but at a price).

You guys have no idea how much restraint it has taken me not to post this before now (from Pete's Dragon):
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
The entity making the 'deal with the devil' is the maia-who-becomes-Glaurung. Morgoth is, of course, the devil in that scenario (as in most scenarios), and the power being offered is his own power to a Maia (but at a price).

You guys have no idea how much restraint it has taken me not to post this before now (from Pete's Dragon):
Mickey Rooney is a lost treasure. That is all...
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Making Morgoth absent for nearly the entire season is causing serious problems and I do not think it was a good idea to begin with at all.

Morgoth needs to develop Dragons in response to the Dagor Aglareb, not in the East just for the lolz or out of boredom. He needs to respond to Dagor Aglareb with an actual plan.

And Morgoth needs to be in Angband to create the Spell of Bottomless Dread, or we'll have to delay Edhellos' treachery until the Dagor Bragollach, when it'll be less noticeable and less necessary.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Morgoth needs to develop Dragons in response to the Dagor Aglareb, not in the East just for the lolz or out of boredom. He needs to respond to Dagor Aglareb with an actual plan.
Well, if he brings the Maia who will become Glaurung to the East, and even if it’s got a dragon body at that time, he will still have to develop it further - and that will of course be as a response to Dagor A.
 
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