Session 4-21: Episodes 10 (& 11)

MithLuin

MithLuin

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Session 4-21 will be held on Thursday August 1st from 10 PM to midnight Eastern Time. That is one week from yesterday's session (due to a conflict with the Mythgard Movie Club).

If it's okay with everyone, I would like to suggest that we finish discussing Episode 10 and do Episode 11 during this session, and save the final creative session until August 23rd. My main motivation is to allow the Script Discussions to continue without being 'caught up', waiting a few weeks, and then being rushed in the post-season trying to deal with the final 4 episodes. But it will also give everyone more of a chance to suggest creative topics that ought to be addressed.

Gantt chart for reference:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...j3TpG3Bnt1hPqHBaGL17TB0Y8/edit#gid=1115838130
 
Episode 10 Events:
  • Warriors of Doriath show up late to battle
  • Fingolfin accepts Thingol’s Ban, and directs the Noldor to cease the use of Quenya in the presence of the Sindar and remove their gems from their clothing.
  • Visit to Belegost? Maedhros commissions Narsil from Telchar
  • Aegnor, Aredhel, and Fingon visit Himring. Aegnor receives Narsil as a gift from Maedhros.
  • Siege of Angband officially established. The Noldor have been working towards this goal, but now it is put into effect.
  • Ulmo’s dreams come to Finrod and Turgon, warning of the doom of the Noldor and the need for safe, secret strongholds.
  • Creation of Glaurung - project referred to obliquely (no hint that Morgoth is creating a dragon)

Episode 11 Events:
  • Finrod goes to Doriath to seek aid from Thingol in response to Ulmo's dream and despite the Ban
  • Turgon finds Tumladen with Ulmo's help.
  • Aredhel in Nevrast?
  • Thingol learns Celeborn concealed his knowledge of the Kinslaying
  • Celeborn and Galadriel engaged
  • Begin work on Gondolin and Nargothrond
 
I'm fine with this. But where in the e10-11 process are we? Is your list above what has been decided? I suspect there was more.
EDIT: Ok I found more 🙂
 
Flashback with Eol? My suggestion is that Telchar is having a flashback to Eol showing her his black swords while constructing Narsil.
 
Lists above are a jumping off point. Only thing that has been decided is that Fingolfin formally accepts the Ban in response to the late arrival of the soldiers of Doriath. I just wanted to give us something to work with, since we only have a few days.
 
MithLuin said:
Episode 10 Events:
  • Warriors of Doriath show up late to battle
  • Fingolfin accepts Thingol’s Ban, and directs the Noldor to cease the use of Quenya in the presence of the Sindar and remove their gems from their clothing.
  • Visit to Belegost? Maedhros commissions Narsil from Telchar
  • Aegnor, Aredhel, and Fingon visit Himring. Aegnor receives Narsil as a gift from Maedhros.
  • Siege of Angband officially established. The Noldor have been working towards this goal, but now it is put into effect.
  • Ulmo’s dreams come to Finrod and Turgon, warning of the doom of the Noldor and the need for safe, secret strongholds.
  • Creation of Glaurung - project referred to obliquely (no hint that Morgoth is creating a dragon)

Episode 11 Events:
  • Finrod goes to Doriath to seek aid from Thingol in response to Ulmo's dream and despite the Ban
  • Turgon finds Tumladen with Ulmo's help.
  • Aredhel in Nevrast?
  • Thingol learns Celeborn concealed his knowledge of the Kinslaying
  • Celeborn and Galadriel engaged
  • Begin work on Gondolin and Nargothrond
Click to expand...
What's Aredhel doing in Nevrast, waiting for Turgon to finish?
 
Discuss Angrod’s fate, see the thread on Episode 9 on ways that Angrod doesn’t have to be killed or captured in the Dagor Aglareb?

When will nominations start for the casting?
 
For the record, no one has ever suggested having Angrod captured in the Dagor Aglareb. But yes, that is on the list of things I'm sending along.

There has been no discussion of post-season sessions yet, so I do not know. Not in August, though.
 
Question about Aredhel: why did she want to go to Gondolin? It seems out of character to be living in a city considering she seems more the outdoorsy type.
 
Well, the real question here is...does she stick with Fingon or Turgon, or strike out on her own? It's possible she likes Turgon better than their other brother, but it's more likely that she chooses to go to Gondolin to be with Idril (whom she helped raise after the death of Elenwë) than to be with Turgon. It's also possible that when Turgon shares the idea of Gondolin with her, he mentions Ulmo's involvement, and she thinks going is the 'right' thing to do. So, perhaps going is not to her tastes, but more of an obligation or something she feels she ought to do...which would lend itself to her restlessness there.
 
Maybe Aredhel accidentally discovers the secret of the building of Gondolin, and Turgon strongly encourages her to come live there as a result.
 
I don't think that Aredhel becoming restless and wanting to leave Gondolin later is something anyone anticipates, and she should be going there of her own free will and without being convinced, I think. It seems also that she really likes Turgon, since she chooses to stay with him from the start. But perhaps, being a bit restless, she loves the idea of leaving Nevrast. Maybe she feels it's gotten a bit old. i also Think that she should be coming along because of Idril. We don't want their relationship to be too tight, or one would wonder why Aredhel leaves Idril later, but I do think that they should have a special relationship (I believe we've discussed this elsewhere, but I can't find it now). Or maybe she has taken on some responsibility for Idril after Elenwë's death, and later, when Idril is adult, Aredhel feels that's not necessary, and that adds to her restlessness in Gondolin.
 
I agree with most of what's been said on this thread. I'm nowhere close to caught up on the podcasts or forum. I'm not expecting I'll have time to get totally caught up before the break between seasons, so I beg some patience for my undoubted ignorance of things decided and discussed. (I'm glad August 22nd isn't the final ep of the season, as I thought from the email.)

MithLuin said:
For the record, no one has ever suggested having Angrod captured in the Dagor Aglareb. But yes, that is on the list of things I'm sending along.
Click to expand...
I think Ange1 is referring to suggestions for Angrod's fate next season in the Dagor Bragollach -- whether he dies as in the books, or is presumed dead and actually captured.


Is this the time to decide whether the Nauglamir is made this season (for Finrod) or after the fall of Nargothrond (for Thingol alone)?
 
Well, I have to go, but just in case it is, I think the Nauglamir should be made later, not now.

JRR Tolkien always intended the Necklace to be made for Thingol alone, and not Finrod, and that's how he always wrote the story of the Nauglamir. In the War of the Jewels there's a great story called the Wanderings of Hurin, a sequel to the story of Turin and prequel to the story of the Nauglamir. It's a really neat story that I think SilmFilm should include because it'd be a shame not to, but it includes notes about Hurin going with a group of Edain to Nargothrond and taking raw treasure to Doriath from there. It would be harder to include the Wanderings of Hurin story if it was just the Nauglamir, already made, because then there'd really be no reason for Hurin to bring those Edain along with him.

(Christopher Tolkien initially felt that the Wanderings of Hurin was too detailed, too like a novella, to shorten into the Silmarillion format, and his father never wrote a summary version of it. So CR Tolkien replaced the whole story with the Nauglamir being made for Finrod, and Hurin alone carrying the Necklace to Doriath. I think he later said he regretted making that decision, but I'm not sure I remember correctly and can't check now.)

SilmFilm has room for tons of details and will be rather short on details after the story of Turin, so I think the Wanderings of Hurin can be included and even expanded. I also would prefer to stick with JRR Tolkien's intent if possible.

Lastly, since SilmFilm has Thingol banning jewelry in addition to Quenya, Finrod can never actually wear the Nauglamir. He can maybe accept it as a gift (but does he admit to the Dwarves he can't wear it?) But the Dwarves must know about Thingol's Ban, so I don't think they would offer Finrod something they know he can't wear in the first place. I think they should instead make amazing, gorgeous chandeliers and other lamps like the ones that they made to light Doriath, and install these in Nargothrond. The chandeliers can be made of gold and silver with light shining through jewels carved and arranged into beautiful shapes. The Dwarves can even say to Finrod that they would have preferred to make jewelry, since the Noldor love it like they do, but they won't because they know Finrod has accepted the Ban.
 
Faelivrin said:
Well, I have to go, but just in case it is, I think the Nauglamir should be made later, not now.

JRR Tolkien always intended the Necklace to be made for Thingol alone, and not Finrod, and that's how he always wrote the story of the Nauglamir. In the War of the Jewels there's a great story called the Wanderings of Hurin, a sequel to the story of Turin and prequel to the story of the Nauglamir. It's a really neat story that I think SilmFilm should include because it'd be a shame not to, but it includes notes about Hurin going with a group of Edain to Nargothrond and taking raw treasure to Doriath from there. It would be harder to include the Wanderings of Hurin story if it was just the Nauglamir, already made, because then there'd really be no reason for Hurin to bring those Edain along with him.

(Christopher Tolkien initially felt that the Wanderings of Hurin was too detailed, too like a novella, to shorten into the Silmarillion format, and his father never wrote a summary version of it. So CR Tolkien replaced the whole story with the Nauglamir being made for Finrod, and Hurin alone carrying the Necklace to Doriath. I think he later said he regretted making that decision, but I'm not sure I remember correctly and can't check now.)

SilmFilm has room for tons of details and will be rather short on details after the story of Turin, so I think the Wanderings of Hurin can be included and even expanded. I also would prefer to stick with JRR Tolkien's intent if possible.

Lastly, since SilmFilm has Thingol banning jewelry in addition to Quenya, Finrod can never actually wear the Nauglamir. He can maybe accept it as a gift (but does he admit to the Dwarves he can't wear it?) But the Dwarves must know about Thingol's Ban, so I don't think they would offer Finrod something they know he can't wear in the first place. I think they should instead make amazing, gorgeous chandeliers and other lamps like the ones that they made to light Doriath, and install these in Nargothrond. The chandeliers can be made of gold and silver with light shining through jewels carved and arranged into beautiful shapes. The Dwarves can even say to Finrod that they would have preferred to make jewelry, since the Noldor love it like they do, but they won't because they know Finrod has accepted the Ban.
Click to expand...
Why would Thingol commission the Nauglamir when he expressly banned jewels? Wouldn’t he be breaking his own law?
 
Last edited:
Ange1e4e5 said:
Why would Thingol commission the Nauglamir when he expressly banned jewels?
Click to expand...

I don't think there is a functional difference between that and having the Nauglamir and Silmaril combined.

However...

Faelivrin said:
Well, I have to go, but just in case it is, I think the Nauglamir should be made later, not now.

JRR Tolkien always intended the Necklace to be made for Thingol alone, and not Finrod, and that's how he always wrote the story of the Nauglamir. In the War of the Jewels there's a great story called the Wanderings of Hurin, a sequel to the story of Turin and prequel to the story of the Nauglamir. It's a really neat story that I think SilmFilm should include because it'd be a shame not to, but it includes notes about Hurin going with a group of Edain to Nargothrond and taking raw treasure to Doriath from there. It would be harder to include the Wanderings of Hurin story if it was just the Nauglamir, already made, because then there'd really be no reason for Hurin to bring those Edain along with him.

(Christopher Tolkien initially felt that the Wanderings of Hurin was too detailed, too like a novella, to shorten into the Silmarillion format, and his father never wrote a summary version of it. So CR Tolkien replaced the whole story with the Nauglamir being made for Finrod, and Hurin alone carrying the Necklace to Doriath. I think he later said he regretted making that decision, but I'm not sure I remember correctly and can't check now.)

SilmFilm has room for tons of details and will be rather short on details after the story of Turin, so I think the Wanderings of Hurin can be included and even expanded. I also would prefer to stick with JRR Tolkien's intent if possible.
Click to expand...

This is certainly the same case you have been making. I will further clarify my response to it:

The climax of the Turin story is the slaying of Glaurung. Even if we stretch that episode to two hours (which I think we might have to) that doesn't leave Hurin a lot of time to go wandering around having adventures of his own. Even the story as told in the book we are using as the primary source for this project would stretch the limits of denouement. Now, you could have this be part of the following season, but doing so makes the death of Thingol the logical climax of that season, rather than the 2nd kinslaying. I think that will be a tough sell.

Finally, I don't think that having the Nauglamir made now actually prevents the "Wanderings of Hurin" from being told. Hurin wouldn't necessarily know the inventory of Nargothrond and how many people to bring with him. This seems a tenuous part of this case at best. If Hurin has companions, he has companions. He doesn't have companions to cart treasure out of Nargothrond.

Lastly, since SilmFilm has Thingol banning jewelry in addition to Quenya, Finrod can never actually wear the Nauglamir. He can maybe accept it as a gift (but does he admit to the Dwarves he can't wear it?) But the Dwarves must know about Thingol's Ban, so I don't think they would offer Finrod something they know he can't wear in the first place. I think they should instead make amazing, gorgeous chandeliers and other lamps like the ones that they made to light Doriath, and install these in Nargothrond. The chandeliers can be made of gold and silver with light shining through jewels carved and arranged into beautiful shapes. The Dwarves can even say to Finrod that they would have preferred to make jewelry, since the Noldor love it like they do, but they won't because they know Finrod has accepted the Ban.
Click to expand...

This is definitely something we have addressed before. Firstly, it is not certain that the dwarves do know about the ban on jewelry at this time. We certainly have not made that so. Secondly, even if they do know, it is likely an open question amongst them as to how seriously the Noldor take the ban on jewels, as of the Noldor, the dwarves deal primarily with the Feanorians, who certainly do not abide by the Ban in their own lands. And Finrod is certainly not going to be so rude as to suggest that such a gift is useless to him. That'd be a pretty awful thing for him to do. Thirdly, it would not shock me at all for the dwarves to give such a gift even knowing about the ban as a test of Finrod's attachment to the Sindar. His relationship with Thingol must seem very strange to them. Is Thingol lord over Finrod or is he not? Are the Noldor bound by Thingol's commands? They certainly do not seem to be, but Thingol certainly seems to consider them his subjects.

Ultimately, I think a case can be made for the inclusion of the "Wanderings of Hurin" as part as the scene following Turin's death. On the other hand, I don't think that this story's inclusion is a solid point in favor of putting off the creation of the Nauglamir, nor do I think the Ban is so either.
 
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