Session 4-21: Episodes 10 (& 11)

[Faelivrin]

The climax of the Turin story is the slaying of Glaurung. Even if we stretch that episode to two hours (which I think we might have to) that doesn't leave Hurin a lot of time to go wandering around having adventures of his own. Even the story as told in the book we are using as the primary source for this project would stretch the limits of denouement. Now, you could have this be part of the following season, but doing so makes the death of Thingol the logical climax of that season, rather than the 2nd kinslaying. I think that will be a tough sell.

Right, this project can't do the Wanderings of Hurin justice by just cramming them into the last episode of the Turin season. They would have to be part of the next season. (For anyone who hasn't read the Wanderings of Hurin, I encourage you to. It's far, for more interesting, and much longer, than the few paragraphs added to Turin's tale in the 1977 book.) As for climaxes, the death of Thingol is already going to be competing with the Second Kinslaying for the climax spot of that season. (Unless Thingol dies in a super boring and silly way, like slipping in the bathtub. )

Finally, I don't think that having the Nauglamir made now actually prevents the "Wanderings of Hurin" from being told.

It likely won't prevent it, no, but it will make it awkward and not work as well to chop out part of that story JRR Tolkien wrote.

As for the Dwarves not knowing about the Ban... well, why wouldn't they? It isn't something secret, it was a royal decree and probably will be talked about openly among the Sindar after it happens (along with the Kinslaying). I don't see a reason for the Sindar to conceal this from the Dwarves. Indeed, they may warn their allies against dealing much with those murderous, red-handed, untrustworthy Feanorians.

Testing Finrod's attachment to Thingol is an interesting idea, and I think you're on the right track that he wouldn't want to tell the Dwarves he can't use their gift... but they won't ever see him wearing it, and neither will the audience. He'll put it away somewhere, and the audience won't be reminded of its existence until suddely it pops back up several seasons later.

Ultimately, I would like to see this adaptation use the author's actual original intent, instead of the somewhat awkward work-around in the 1977 Silmarillion. There's no need to avoid telling the Wanderings of Hurin in SilmFilm, nor do I see any need to compress such an interesting story until it makes no sense. And that leaves no need to alter the origin of the Nauglamir.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Right, this project can't do the Wanderings of Hurin justice by just cramming them into the last episode of the Turin season. They would have to be part of the next season. As for climaxes, the death of Thingol is already going to be competing with the Second Kinslaying for the climax spot of that season. (Unless Thingol dies in a super boring and silly way, like slipping in the bathtub. )

It likely won't prevent it, no, but it will make it awkward and not work as well to chop out part of that story JRR Tolkien wrote.

As for the Dwarves not knowing about the Ban... well, why wouldn't they? It isn't something secret, it was a royal decree and probably will be talked about openly among the Sindar after it happens (along with the Kinslaying). I don't see a reason for the Sindar to conceal this from the Dwarves. Indeed, they may warn their allies against dealing much with those murderous, red-handed, untrustworthy Feanorians.

Testing Finrod's attachment to Thingol is an interesting idea, and I think you're on the right track that he wouldn't want to tell the Dwarves he can't use their gift... but they won't ever see him wearing it, and neither will the audience. He'll put it away somewhere, and the audience won't be reminded of its existence until suddely it pops back up several seasons later.

Ultimately, I would like to see this adaptation use the author's actual original intent, instead of the somewhat awkward work-around in the 1977 Silmarillion. There's no need to avoid telling the Wanderings of Hurin in SilmFilm, nor do I see any need to compress such an interesting story until it makes no sense. And that leaves no need to alter the origin of the Nauglamir. (For anyone who hasn't read the Wanderings of Hurin, I encourage you to. It's far, for more interesting than the few paragraphs added to Turin's tale in the 1977 book.)

That line about Thingol dying in the bathtub is darkly ironic, considering Hurin goes and drowns himself. Hurin’s death is pretty anticlimactic, wouldn’t be fussed if this is repeated.

The Nauglamir is mentioned as being created by Finrod with the help of the Dwarves, and I see no reason to contradict this (the 1977 Silmarillion is my main source on the subject).

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

It likely won't prevent it, no, but it will make it awkward and not work as well to chop out part of that story JRR Tolkien wrote.

I don't necessarily think that using the Silmarillion as a guide here has to be awkward.

As for the Dwarves not knowing about the Ban... well, why wouldn't they? It isn't something secret, it was a royal decree and probably will be talked about openly among the Sindar after it happens (along with the Kinslaying). I don't see a reason for the Sindar to conceal this from the Dwarves. Indeed, they may warn their allies against dealing much with those murderous, red-handed, untrustworthy Feanorians.

I'm not sure that "conceal" is the word I would choose. Ultimately, it isn't any of the dwarves' business. It's a family matter. There is no reason for the Sindar to immediately inform the dwarves about this. I'm not saying they couldn't, just that they don't have to.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Testing Finrod's attachment to Thingol is an interesting idea, and I think you're on the right track that he wouldn't want to tell the Dwarves he can't use their gift... but they won't ever see him wearing it, and neither will the audience. He'll put it away somewhere, and the audience won't be reminded of its existence until suddely it pops back up several seasons later.

There are certainly things we can do to remind the audience of the Nauglamir. For example, we are going to see Nargothrond during the Beren and Luthien season, as well as during Turin's season.

Ultimately, I would like to see this adaptation use the author's actual original intent, instead of the somewhat awkward work-around in the 1977 Silmarillion. There's no need to avoid telling the Wanderings of Hurin in SilmFilm, nor do I see any need to compress such an interesting story until it makes no sense. And that leaves no need to alter the origin of the Nauglamir.

I don't find the Silmarillion story awkward at all. It seems to make perfect sense to me. Even the compression of the Wanderings of Hurin in the Silmarillion seems to make perfect sense to me, and I imagine plenty of other Silmarillion readers. But I don't think that following the Silmarillion when it comes to the Nauglamir is in any way the same as avoiding telling the Wanderings. Therefore there is no need to alter the origin of the Nauglamir as written in the Silmarillion.

 

[Rhiannon]

SilmFilm Session 4-21: Episodes 10 & 11

Balrogs in Dagor Aglareb?

• Text does not say whether they were at the battle or not, but that does not mean there were no Balrogs; The Balrogs not going out undermines Morgoth by making him look foolish by throwing away the Orcs and the Elves look foolish by becoming overconfident when Morgoth obviously doesn’t use his full force; Our story has the Balrogs as captains, and the viewers will be confused; Balrogs would not be helpful against the Valar
• Angrod has been more prominent than Aegnor in this season, but Aegnor will need to become more prominent next season; Angrod is at the top of his character arc; Orodreth goes to live with Aegnor
• When is Glamdring made? Turgon has foreboding and makes sword. Other Noldor do not have the technology.

Episode 10

• Celeborn, Mablung, and Beleg come from Doriath but Thingol does not; Celgorm mad at them for showing up late, speaks in Quenya, makes himself despised by people from Doriath; Mablung expresses his anger at Celegorm to Celeborn; Ban is Oliphaunt in the room; Finrod and Fingolfin are most diplomatic; Summit meeting at Minas Tirith; Fingolfin realizes that they need to compromise, so he initiates talk about and accepts the ban; After acceptance of ban, they make military arrangements
• Funeral for Angrod, mound on Tol Sirion that Finrod will be buried beside; no ceremony; Elves do not burn dead so deaths by fire (Feanor and Amrod) look unnatural
• Seeing the inside of Belegost would require a lot of extra explanatory scenes, so Telchar could deliver the sword in person; It would be good to depict the forging of Narsil – first scene in the episode; Maedhros originally commissioned the sword for himself but gives it to Aegnor out of respect and pity; Narsil is a one-handed sword; Forging of swords and alliances in the same episode
• Dreams near end of the episode and discussions about them next episode; Finrod and Turgon have the same dream but take it different ways; Show dream but audience not sure who had the dream at first

Episode 11

• will be discussed with episode 12

 

[Ange1e4e5]

SilmFilm Session 4-21: Episodes 10 & 11

Balrogs in Dagor Aglareb?

• Text does not say whether they were at the battle or not, but that does not mean there were no Balrogs; The Balrogs not going out undermines Morgoth by making him look foolish by throwing away the Orcs and the Elves look foolish by becoming overconfident when Morgoth obviously doesn’t use his full force; Our story has the Balrogs as captains, and the viewers will be confused; Balrogs would not be helpful against the Valar
• Angrod has been more prominent than Aegnor in this season, but Aegnor will need to become more prominent next season; Angrod is at the top of his character arc; Orodreth goes to live with Aegnor
• When is Glamdring made? Turgon has foreboding and makes sword. Other Noldor do not have the technology.

Episode 10

• Celeborn, Mablung, and Beleg come from Doriath but Thingol does not; Celgorm mad at them for showing up late, speaks in Quenya, makes himself despised by people from Doriath; Mablung expresses his anger at Celegorm to Celeborn; Ban is Oliphaunt in the room; Finrod and Fingolfin are most diplomatic; Summit meeting at Minas Tirith; Fingolfin realizes that they need to compromise, so he initiates talk about and accepts the ban; After acceptance of ban, they make military arrangements
• Funeral for Angrod, mound on Tol Sirion that Finrod will be buried beside; no ceremony; Elves do not burn dead so deaths by fire (Feanor and Amrod) look unnatural
• Seeing the inside of Belegost would require a lot of extra explanatory scenes, so Telchar could deliver the sword in person; It would be good to depict the forging of Narsil – first scene in the episode; Maedhros originally commissioned the sword for himself but gives it to Aegnor out of respect and pity; Narsil is a one-handed sword; Forging of swords and alliances in the same episode
• Dreams near end of the episode and discussions about them next episode; Finrod and Turgon have the same dream but take it different ways; Show dream but audience not sure who had the dream at first

Episode 11

• will be discussed with episode 12

About Celegorm: I thought the action that makes him despised in Doriath was trying to make Luthien marry him, which is tantamount to attempted rape for Elves.

 

[Haakon]

When is Glamdring made? Turgon has foreboding and makes sword. Other Noldor do not have the technology.

As I understood it, Turgon will have it made some time after Dagor Bragollach.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

As I understood it, Turgon will have it made some time after Dagor Bragollach.

Probably no later than Nirnaeth Arnoediad, since Turgon apparently spends the Fall of Gondolin holed up in his tower until it collapses. The sword has to receive some fame to get the name “Beater” from the Orcs/Goblins, since for the next six and a half thousand years, the sword passes out of all knowledge.

 

[Haakon]

Yeah definitely before Nirn.Arn.

 

[Haakon]

I think Corey suggested that Turgon gets a premonition to commission the sword, to be used in an important battle. Then he uses it in Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and after that, he hangs it on his wall, not suspecting the fall of Gondolin.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I'll just point out here that one can be in a battle, kill ton of Orcs, THEN die alone in your tower when it collapses.

 

[Haakon]

Yeah I think we're all on the same page here. Turgon has someone make his sword. Then there's a battle and he fights with it. Then there's another battle, in which he dies in his tower.

 

[Haakon]

About Finrod: I kind of like the fact that in our timeline, he doesn't fully respect the ban (when he accepts the Nauglamir). Ok, so he doesn't wear it, at least not a lot. But he does accept a peice of jewelry, that is meant to be worn. And perhaps he wears it, on rare occations. I think that the fact that he brought a lot of jewels from Valinor is really interesting. One would think that he has a weak spot for jewelry. Perhaps he can't really resist them. Oh he gives them away as well, so it's not greed. But he loves them. It's not a crime. So what if he has some jewels stored. The ban doesn't say anything about that, does it?
He's so kind and wise and great in so many ways. I think it would be great if he, this noble hero and friend of Men, also would have some small weakness.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Yeah I think we're all on the same page here. Turgon has someone make his sword. Then there's a battle and he fights with it. Then there's another battle, in which he dies in his tower.

Actually, I'm on quite a different page, but I've made all of those points already and I think it can wait until we get to that point in the show before I restate them.

 

[Haakon]

Actually, I'm on quite a different page, but I've made all of those points already and I think it can wait until we get to that point in the show before I restate them.

Ok. I'm not invested in this to a greater degree. Basically, I just want to make sure that he has his sword at one time and uses it a lot on orcs.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Ok. I'm not invested in this to a greater degree. Basically, I just want to make sure that he has his sword at one time and uses it a lot on orcs.

Essentially, my investment in this starts and ends with paying off the rivalry we have created between Sauron and Gothmog.

 

[Haakon]

Oh the technology of the sword and all that?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Ok. I'm not invested in this to a greater degree. Basically, I just want to make sure that he has his sword at one time and uses it a lot on orcs.

I agree. There should be a reason why Turgon’s sword is called the Foe Hammer, it shouldn’t just be for show. This isn’t like Joffrey and Widow’s Wail.

 

[MithLuin]

Concerning Glamdring, what was definitively determined about it in last night's session was that it would be forged in Gondolin. Not before. That, at least, fits everyone's expectations.

Gondolin having unique technology that the other Noldor do not have was an idea that was acceptable to Corey Olsen as well.

Where the disconnect comes is in precise timing/circumstances of Glamdring's forging, but I think we can still make everyone happy.

What allows the Gondolindrim to kill balrogs (particularly Gothmog)? We want Sauron's fingerprints all over that. And, it was agreed last night, that Gondolin would be the *first* balrog death. (Aegnor is going to die in battle, but whether he's killed by Glaurung or balrogs, he's not taking his foe with him.)

So, here's the issue - if Glamdring is forged earlier (ie, before the Unnumbered Tears), then obviously Sauron/Maeglin betrayal issues had no part in its forging.

But, this is magic we're dealing with. There needn't be any reason the anti-balrog magic need be imparted at the time an item is made. It can be applied after. So, I dunno, Maeglin makes a fire, tosses some stuff in it, and mutters magic words over it....and then any blade passed through the flames is now embued with anti-balrog powers. Naturally, the king's sword Glamdring is one of the blades so treated, as well as whatever blades Glorfindel and Ecthelion carry, and Orcrist. And, at some point in all of this, we have Echthelion lean over the fire and his pointed helmet gets hit with the magic too.

I'm not saying we have to do it that way. We could bring back the idea of an ice forge on the Helcaraxë that was skipped and use something with fire and ice in our anti-balrog magic. Or figure out a way to capture sunlight and moonlight so that the anti-balrog-magic is like a post-Trees silmaril-making process. But what I am saying is that it is possible to use the idea suggested last night (Glamdring be forged in response to a prophetic vision before the Nirnaeth Arnoediad) while still using the plot idea of Sauron giving Gondolin anti-balrog technology before the fall of the Hidden City. They're not mutually exclusive.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Concerning Glamdring, what was definitively determined about it in last night's session was that it would be forged in Gondolin. Not before. That, at least, fits everyone's expectations.

Gondolin having unique technology that the other Noldor do not have was an idea that was acceptable to Corey Olsen as well.

Where the disconnect comes is in precise timing/circumstances of Glamdring's forging, but I think we can still make everyone happy.

What allows the Gondolindrim to kill balrogs (particularly Gothmog)? We want Sauron's fingerprints all over that. And, it was agreed last night, that Gondolin would be the *first* balrog death. (Aegnor is going to die in battle, but whether he's killed by Glaurung or balrogs, he's not taking his foe with him.)

So, here's the issue - if Glamdring is forged earlier (ie, before the Unnumbered Tears), then obviously Sauron/Maeglin betrayal issues had no part in its forging.

But, this is magic we're dealing with. There needn't be any reason the anti-balrog magic need be imparted at the time an item is made. It can be applied after. So, I dunno, Maeglin makes a fire, tosses some stuff in it, and mutters magic words over it....and then any blade passed through the flames is now embued with anti-balrog powers. Naturally, the king's sword Glamdring is one of the blades so treated, as well as whatever blades Glorfindel and Ecthelion carry, and Orcrist. And, at some point in all of this, we have Echthelion lean over the fire and his pointed helmet gets hit with the magic too.

I'm not saying we have to do it that way. We could bring back the idea of an ice forge on the Helcaraxë that was skipped and use something with fire and ice in our anti-balrog magic. Or figure out a way to capture sunlight and moonlight so that the anti-balrog-magic is like a post-Trees silmaril-making process. But what I am saying is that it is possible to use the idea suggested last night (Glamdring be forged in response to a prophetic vision before the Nirnaeth Arnoediad) while still using the plot idea of Sauron giving Gondolin anti-balrog technology before the fall of the Hidden City. They're not mutually exclusive.

So we’re not using my idea of having Aegnor earn a mutual kill against a Balrog at the Dagor Bragollach? I guess I would prefer a Balrog dying before Gothmog since I’m not a fan of having the leader be the first to die.