Session 4-22: Final Creative Content - Dragons!

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Are you sure you mean sigil here? I mean... we know Turgons and Tuors sigils and neither of both has swan wings..

But the house of the wing in gondolin later has the emblem of the swan wing and they have winged helmets... we know the shield turgon left at nevrast bore a swan wing device... i don't think that there was before a housecof the swan but that Tuor newly founded that house at gondolin and that the members of his house either came from former members of other houses or formerly unalligned citizens.

I'm sure that his house emblems and helmets were inspired by the helm and shield turgon left at nevrast

Where turgon got the ideas for this from? I don't know... i guess i like the idea that they were either directly demanded by ulmo as a quasi-religious gesture or otherwise were part of turgons dreams/vision...
or maybe the swan symbol originally was a symbol from the iconography of the Falathrim who had moved to Vinyamar?

Question would be: is this the point where the entire swan-wing tradition which we will find the next thousands of years ,all through from the edain to the numenoreans to the royal guard of gondor and the swan-knights of dol amroth ,started or has it been there before as a sinda-tradition?
Unfinished Tales says it was a swan wing on the shield.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
The emblem/device of a swan wing, not a swan-wing in any sigil! I think we are talking past each other here, or you are just misusing/misunderstanding the term sigil maybe at this point?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
The emblem/device of a swan wing, not a swan-wing in any sigil! I think we are talking past each other here, or you are just misusing misunderstanding the term sigil maybe at this point?
It’s quite possible. I took it for having a swan-wing on the shield, that an emblem and sigil were synonymous.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Ah okay! Then i misunderstood you...

I thought you were talking about the sigil designs tolkien made... or more specifically the two designs he made for turgon and tuor.

But yeah! The wing on his shield COULD very well be in the style of such a sigil! I mean we already talked about the signs of the houses of Gondolin being reimagined in the style of such sigils, so yeah sure, the device of that shield could absolutely be the first appearnce of what later becomes the sigil of the house of the swan in gondolin!
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Ah okay! Then i misunderstood you...

I thought you were talking about the sigil designs tolkien made... or more specifically the two designs he made for turgon and tuor.

But yeah! The wing on his shield COULD very well be in the style of such a sigil! I mean we already talked about the signs of the houses of Gondolin being reimagined in the style of such sigils, so yeah sure, the device of that shield could absolutely be the first appearnce of what later becomes the sigil of the house of the swan in gondolin!
Speaking of which, how did Turgon come up with his own heraldic device?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Good question! But it just seems to be an elvish thing... you have a sign or symbol, not only when you are a king or lord.

I already proposed they could even wear those patterns as elements in their clothing, be it sort of embroidery or even fully woven cloaks.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Speaking of which, how did Turgon come up with his own heraldic device?
In the Book of Lost Tales, there's a story where his father (then called Noleme) is killed in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, and an Orc cuts out his heart, but Turgon rescues his father's heart and takes it as his emblem.

Do we want the same thing to happen but maybe with Fingon instead?

I don't think it's ever stated why he also uses the Sun and Moon also. Presumably they were important to the Noldor because they rose when the Noldor arrived in Beleriand, but Turgon also likes the Trees since he made the replicas of them in Gondolin.

It might be interesting for Turgon to change his heraldic device as his attitude about the Valar changes. Maybe he could start out using the Two Trees but switch to the Sun and Moon as his hope for help from the West wanes.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Fingolfin you mean i suppose? Or did you mean replacingbthe father with the brother? I kind of would like that actually!


I had already proposed to use Fingolfin's heart that, but so far the outline team vetoed the cut out heart...
we sort of decided to replace it with a jewel, as most of the sigils are quite abstract, very floreate or crystal-like

The finrod and haleth sigils are a bit more concrete or object-like though so i guess we COULD do that.
 
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Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Fingolfin you mean i suppose? Or did you mean replacingbthe father with the brother? I kind of would like that actually!


I had already proposed to use Fingolfin's heart that, but so far the outline team vetoed the cut out heart...
we sort of decided to replace it with a jewel, as most of the sigils are quite abstract, very floreate or crystal-like

The finrod and haleth sigils are a bit more concrete or object-like though so i guess we COULD do that.
I did mean Fingon instead of Fingolfin since Fingon is the one who dies in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

Perhaps the heart could be metaphorical instead of being a real heart. Maybe Turgon thinks of Gondolin as the heart of Elvendom on earth.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
In the Book of Lost Tales, there's a story where his father (then called Noleme) is killed in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, and an Orc cuts out his heart, but Turgon rescues his father's heart and takes it as his emblem.

Do we want the same thing to happen but maybe with Fingon instead?

I don't think it's ever stated why he also uses the Sun and Moon also. Presumably they were important to the Noldor because they rose when the Noldor arrived in Beleriand, but Turgon also likes the Trees since he made the replicas of them in Gondolin.

It might be interesting for Turgon to change his heraldic device as his attitude about the Valar changes. Maybe he could start out using the Two Trees but switch to the Sun and Moon as his hope for help from the West wanes.
Perhaps he changes it when Voronwe’s ship leaves for Valinor, the last of the ships sent to seek pardon from the Valar?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
SilmFilm Session 4-22: Final Creative Content – Dragons

What are Dragons?
  • Evil spirit embodied within beast. Could be descended from beast of horn and hide. Show dragon process with later dragons not with Glaurung.
  • The enormity of Glaurung’s power suggests that he is a Maia. The Maia that becomes Glaurung should be a high-ranking Maia. Glaurung is the father of Dragons, but Mrs. Glaurung could just be a monstrous animal. This seems to be what other creatures do, like Werewolves, Eagles, Spiders, and Ents. Glaurung and his offspring are not under Sauron or Gothmog’s control. He may be just below their level in rank. Glaurung serves Melkor but wants to set up on his own.
  • There should be visual and musical parallels between and Glaurung and later Dragons.
  • Which of the Maiar did Glaurung serve before joining Morgoth? Lorien because of his power over minds. Lorien is associated with wellness of the mind and Glaurung is associated with disease of the mind.
  • Glaurung could be a new convert to Morgoth’s side, shown in a flashback in a later season. He should have a different name before Glaurung. He is converted for archetypal Dragon reasons, like greed, maybe desire for the Silmarils. He may have come to Middle-earth fooling himself that he was going to bring the Silmarils back to Valinor, but he really wanted them for himself. The desire for treasure is what turns him into a Dragon, like Eustace from Voyage of the Dawn Treader.
  • Draugluin is the first necromantic experiment, Boldog is next, and Glaurung is third. The creation of Glaurung could be a way to show Morgoth weakening himself. Fire-breathing could be a gift from Morgoth. Morgoth may punish Glaurung for lusting after the Silmarils.
What should Glaurung look like?
  • snakelike, lizardlike, or crocodlilelike? Corey does not like serpentine dragons, but Tolkien does. Would dragons evolve to look like more traditional Western dragons? Descriptions of Smaug do not make him sound serpentine.
  • The beast that the Glaurung spirit is put into could be physically changed as the spirit is embodied.
  • Should Glaurung be fast? Not super fast but not lumbering either, more like a tank in battle. Sinuous but not snakelike body. His belly does not drag the ground. Glaurung leaves a track of desolation because plants wither as he passes. Glaurung has a long tail. His legs should not be so long that they look feline. Fire-breathing gives him a ranged effect.
  • How is he different in his younger form? Less thick hide. Scales are an upgrade. Full-grown body that gets invested with more of Morgoth’s power. He grows bigger and stronger as Morgoth gives him more power. He has fire-breathing at first. Maybe he changes color and gets shinier when he is upgraded. His upgrades should not look like a video game.
What do we show regarding Glaurung?

  • We could meet the Maia who becomes Glaurung before he is a Dragon in the Angband subplot. He will not seem like a threat before he is a Dragon.
Naming extras
  • Bard’s wife = Ragna
  • Celeborn’s Sister = Galathil
  • Annael’s wife and son
  • Caranthir’s wife is either just like Caranthir or the opposite of him. She could be meek then turn against the Feanorians in one of the Kinslayings.
  • Maglor’s wife stayed in Valinor. If she is in Middle-earth, she would be musical like him.
  • Dwarf with Telchar
Passage of time
  • not talked about this episode
Armor for Tuor
  • Swan wing motif. Should be like citadel guard helmets. Tuor’s armor should look like a sentinel. Not like knight armor. Emerald on its breast.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I would in no case destroy the mystery of Glaurung and dragons by creating a plausible backgroundstory for them!
Some tbings better stay untold...
And to be honest I also don't care at all that Corey Olsen does not like serpentine dragons! It's his own problem then...

You really wish to use Galathils name for the sister? A bit sad... and dull, would it be such an act to invent a new name?
I like the name Ragna for Bards wife , it means advice or strength...very fitting.
 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I would in no case destroy the mystery of Glaurung and dragons by creating a plausible backgroundstory for them!
Some tbings better stay untold...
And to be honest I also don't care at all that Corey Olsen does not like serpentine dragons! It's his own problem then...

You really wish to use Galathils name for the sister? A bit sad... and dull, would it be such an act to invent a new name?
I like the name Ragna for Bards wife , it means advice or strength...very fitting.
Agree with all of this.
Let's just introduce Glaurung as a shock. (And how can the serpentine dragon be a problem?)
Galathil? Kind of disappointing. It's not that important, but I still prefer Evranin. I'll have to wait and listen to the podcast of course.
(I'm happy that the name Ragna was chosen.)
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Agree with all of this.
Let's just introduce Glaurung as a shock. (And how can the serpentine dragon be a problem?)
Galathil? Kind of disappointing. It's not that important, but I still prefer Evranin. I'll have to wait and listen to the podcast of course.
(I'm happy that the name Ragna was chosen.)
Does that mean the threads are renamed?
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
SilmFilm Session 4-22: Final Creative Content – Dragons

What are Dragons?
  • Evil spirit embodied within beast. Could be descended from beast of horn and hide. Show dragon process with later dragons not with Glaurung.
  • The enormity of Glaurung’s power suggests that he is a Maia. The Maia that becomes Glaurung should be a high-ranking Maia. Glaurung is the father of Dragons, but Mrs. Glaurung could just be a monstrous animal. This seems to be what other creatures do, like Werewolves, Eagles, Spiders, and Ents. Glaurung and his offspring are not under Sauron or Gothmog’s control. He may be just below their level in rank. Glaurung serves Melkor but wants to set up on his own.
  • There should be visual and musical parallels between and Glaurung and later Dragons.
  • Which of the Maiar did Glaurung serve before joining Morgoth? Lorien because of his power over minds. Lorien is associated with wellness of the mind and Glaurung is associated with disease of the mind.
  • Glaurung could be a new convert to Morgoth’s side, shown in a flashback in a later season. He should have a different name before Glaurung. He is converted for archetypal Dragon reasons, like greed, maybe desire for the Silmarils. He may have come to Middle-earth fooling himself that he was going to bring the Silmarils back to Valinor, but he really wanted them for himself. The desire for treasure is what turns him into a Dragon, like Eustace from Voyage of the Dawn Treader.
  • Draugluin is the first necromantic experiment, Boldog is next, and Glaurung is third. The creation of Glaurung could be a way to show Morgoth weakening himself. Fire-breathing could be a gift from Morgoth. Morgoth may punish Glaurung for lusting after the Silmarils.
What should Glaurung look like?
  • snakelike, lizardlike, or crocodlilelike? Corey does not like serpentine dragons, but Tolkien does. Would dragons evolve to look like more traditional Western dragons? Descriptions of Smaug do not make him sound serpentine.
  • The beast that the Glaurung spirit is put into could be physically changed as the spirit is embodied.
  • Should Glaurung be fast? Not super fast but not lumbering either, more like a tank in battle. Sinuous but not snakelike body. His belly does not drag the ground. Glaurung leaves a track of desolation because plants wither as he passes. Glaurung has a long tail. His legs should not be so long that they look feline. Fire-breathing gives him a ranged effect.
  • How is he different in his younger form? Less thick hide. Scales are an upgrade. Full-grown body that gets invested with more of Morgoth’s power. He grows bigger and stronger as Morgoth gives him more power. He has fire-breathing at first. Maybe he changes color and gets shinier when he is upgraded. His upgrades should not look like a video game.
What do we show regarding Glaurung?

  • We could meet the Maia who becomes Glaurung before he is a Dragon in the Angband subplot. He will not seem like a threat before he is a Dragon.
Naming extras
  • Bard’s wife = Ragna
  • Celeborn’s Sister = Galathil
  • Annael’s wife and son
  • Caranthir’s wife is either just like Caranthir or the opposite of him. She could be meek then turn against the Feanorians in one of the Kinslayings.
  • Maglor’s wife stayed in Valinor. If she is in Middle-earth, she would be musical like him.
  • Dwarf with Telchar
Passage of time
  • not talked about this episode
Armor for Tuor
  • Swan wing motif. Should be like citadel guard helmets. Tuor’s armor should look like a sentinel. Not like knight armor. Emerald on its breast.
Why emerald on the Tuor armor? Green doesn’t sound like a color he’d be associated with (seems more Finrod), why not sapphires since Fingolfin’s heraldic device (and Turgon’s by extension) incorporates blue?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Why emerald on the Tuor armor? Green doesn’t sound like a color he’d be associated with (seems more Finrod), why not sapphires since Fingolfin’s heraldic device (and Turgon’s by extension) incorporates blue?
I suggested a gem of some kind to prefigure Earendil’s emerald. The hosts said they wanted Tuor to have an emerald, but it could probably be some other kind of gem.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I would in no case destroy the mystery of Glaurung and dragons by creating a plausible backgroundstory for them!
Some tbings better stay untold...
If I can find a way to set Glaurung up early in the season though, I will. Having him suddenly appear as the antagonist of the finale is just poor storytelling.

And I don't agree with the idea that not telling this story makes it better somehow. Tolkien tells us that this story happens, and we all imagine it on some level. If a story gets worse for being told, it seems to me that most likely, it was either poorly told, or not a very good story to begin with.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
If I can find a way to set Glaurung up early in the season though, I will. Having him suddenly appear as the antagonist of the finale is just poor storytelling.

And I don't agree with the idea that not telling this story makes it better somehow. Tolkien tells us that this story happens, and we all imagine it on some level. If a story gets worse for being told, it seems to me that most likely, it was either poorly told, or not a very good story to begin with.
Fair enough, Nick. :) That makes perfect sense. I just don’t think it should be an extensive story - but then the suggestions made don’t have to take much time.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Right - the goal would be to tease some stuff in the background a few times.

If someone from Valinor is knocking on the doors of Angband (so to speak), the inhabitants would be very suspicious and distrustful. So, I think Maia!Glaurung's arrival has to either happen while Morgoth is in residence (only he could vet the guy satisfactorily), or he has to know someone from way-back-when and be let in for that reason. Showing Maia!Glaurung persuasively talk himself inside Angband sounds promising. So, perhaps this could be a scene some time in Episodes 1-6?

Maia!Glaurung would be a background character in the Episode 8 'Meanwhile in Angband' stuff.

The conversation between Morgoth and Maia!Glaurung over the silmarils? and Morgoth's desire to make use of him in the war can be an Episode 10 tag.

We should probably save the 'transformation of Maia!Glaurung into a dragon' scene for Season 5 in flashbacks.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Hey isn’t Olorin supposed to be visiting Middle-earth from time to time? And he’s associated with Lorien. Could he have a sidekick who defects and joins Morgoth? (Glaurung)
 
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