Session 4-23: Episodes 11 and 12

Rhiannon

Active Member
Btw as i continue to read the script...

I can't say how much i love the way the captains and wives are introduced! It is so good to have new interesting characters!
and i like the funny mocking on flying balrogs and a not dead elf with a strangely twisted name

I like the feanorians brooding and boasting, the strategy, The Finarfinians excourse of etymologies ... really good!

One thing i did not like however... i felt that rhogrins capture is a bit unheroic and sad... maybe the part in which he fights could be omitted and we just see him heavily wounded crawling out of the remains of some battle or ambush to see the undefined shape of some terrible enemy , then again cut outbwhat happens and we see him as a prisoner? Something like this maybe? I don't know...
I’m really glad you like the scripts!

In an episode focused primarily on a major battle, Rhogrin’s fight against whatever ambushed him would probably seem less heroic than if it took place in a less action-packed episode, so I think it’s better to leave that mysterious. I could, however, mention that he is badly wounded from the fight when he wakes up in Angband.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I’m really glad you like the scripts!

In an episode focused primarily on a major battle, Rhogrin’s fight against whatever ambushed him would probably seem less heroic than if it took place in a less action-packed episode, so I think it’s better to leave that mysterious. I could, however, mention that he is badly wounded from the fight when he wakes up in Angband.
So he'd be wounded and thought dead, then captured after the battle?
 

Rhiannon

Active Member
At what point in Episode 12 should Rhogrin escape?
Probably towards the end of the episode. We haven't had Annael captured yet, and if they are going to escape together, we need Annael to get captured and have the Spell of Bottomless Dread placed on him first.

If we don't want to have Annael captured and released in the same episode, maybe we could show him already captured and among the prisoners in Episode 8.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
I’ve expressed interest to a scene with Rog (or Rhogrin’s) escape with him at the forefront, hacking his way through Orcs. Is this a good or bad idea?

Somewhat like this.
Honestly, I never commented on this, because I didn't see the similarity between what you were describing and the scene from Star Wars. Vader is a villain who is using magic powers to overcome the mooks, advancing slowly and menacingly; Rhogrin is going to be using brawn and speed. And while he may have to do some fighting on the way out, there is no way a small group of elves can fight all the might of Angband, so it's mostly going to be a stealthy escape, not an opportunity to mow down orcs. Rhogrin is more akin to the data than Vader in that scene!

Will that escape be an action sequence? Sure. Will there be fighting? Again, of course. And will there be tension as the audience waits to find out whether or not the good guys escape/survive? Also, yes. So, yes, there will be an opportunity for Rhogrin to kill some orcs.

Is Rhogrin going to steal his enemies' weapons and nail them to the ceiling with the Force? Well....no. Can he be overwhelmingly stronger than the orcs he faces and overcome them quickly? Eh...maybe? That might make the escape look easy if one hit takes out each opponent. They don't have time to get bogged down, but we might need to show a bit of a struggle.

I am fine with showing Rhogrin being a strong warrior and having him fight his way out of Angband. So, in that sense, I have no reason to disagree with the suggestion. I'm not too particular about the details, but I'm really not sure what you were getting at with the Vader comparison.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Maybe a villain is pursuing Rhogrin (a bit like Vader is after the data) and a couple of captive elves stand in his (the villain's) way to help Rhogrin escape. And the villain (probably not one of the big ones, but it could be one of Mairon's gang or Boldog - or a big orc captain that we can introduce) mows them down easily (but is delayed enough to give Rhogrin time to escape).
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Honestly, I never commented on this, because I didn't see the similarity between what you were describing and the scene from Star Wars. Vader is a villain who is using magic powers to overcome the mooks, advancing slowly and menacingly; Rhogrin is going to be using brawn and speed. And while he may have to do some fighting on the way out, there is no way a small group of elves can fight all the might of Angband, so it's mostly going to be a stealthy escape, not an opportunity to mow down orcs. Rhogrin is more akin to the data than Vader in that scene!

Will that escape be an action sequence? Sure. Will there be fighting? Again, of course. And will there be tension as the audience waits to find out whether or not the good guys escape/survive? Also, yes. So, yes, there will be an opportunity for Rhogrin to kill some orcs.

Is Rhogrin going to steal his enemies' weapons and nail them to the ceiling with the Force? Well....no. Can he be overwhelmingly stronger than the orcs he faces and overcome them quickly? Eh...maybe? That might make the escape look easy if one hit takes out each opponent. They don't have time to get bogged down, but we might need to show a bit of a struggle.

I am fine with showing Rhogrin being a strong warrior and having him fight his way out of Angband. So, in that sense, I have no reason to disagree with the suggestion. I'm not too particular about the details, but I'm really not sure what you were getting at with the Vader comparison.
It was veering more towards him having to fight his way out and be at the forefront of the escape, which would be through something other than the main gate, hacking his way through Orcs. He’s gotta make sure he’s not too far ahead of the rest of his fellow escapees, on the other hand.

@Rhiannon suggested having Annael, who is at this point a sleeper agent, silently join the group of escapees.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Maybe a villain is pursuing Rhogrin (a bit like Vader is after the data) and a couple of captive elves stand in his (the villain's) way to help Rhogrin escape. And the villain (probably not one of the big ones, but it could be one of Mairon's gang or Boldog - or a big orc captain that we can introduce) mows them down easily (but is delayed enough to give Rhogrin time to escape).
Perhaps one of the captive Elves is the brother of Penlod and the Orc captain (Gorgol?) (he doesn't have to be big) reports to Sauron that they had a few escapees, but Sauron tells him "I have eyes in the group." Cut to the party of escapees with a pan over them as if to make one speculate which one is the spy.
 
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Rhiannon

Active Member
Perhaps one of the captive Elves is the brother of Penlod and the Orc captain (Gorgol?) (he doesn't have to be big) reports to Sauron that they had a few escapees, but Sauron tells him "I have eyes in the group." Cut to the party of escapees with a pan over them as if to make one speculate which one is the spy.
We haven’t shown Penlod’s brother captured, but Diriel, Curufin’s wife, is in Angband. Maybe she could do something to help the escapees.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
We haven’t shown Penlod’s brother captured, but Diriel, Curufin’s wife, is in Angband. Maybe she could do something to help the escapees.
Maybe pass along a hammer, which Rhogrin uses until his death in the Fall of Gondolin?
 

Rhiannon

Active Member
Maybe pass along a hammer, which Rhogrin uses until his death in the Fall of Gondolin?
Maybe. I'd like her to do something that helps Rog and some other slaves escape, but she cannot escape herself. Maybe she could be responsible for creating a diversion of some kind.
 

Rhiannon

Active Member
SilmFilm Session 4-23: Episodes 11 & 12

Episode 11
  • Turgon finds Tumladen with Ulmo’s help; how does Ulmo’s appearance to Turgon happen?; the aid of Ulmo is not shocking to Turgon and Finrod, as they know that Ulmo sometimes acts independently of the Valar; Ulmo’s motivation for getting involved is not clear until Episode 13; Turgon gets message from Ulmo to go to Tumladen; birds help show him the way; thrush knocking reveals the secret way; Turgon encounters Thorondor in the valley; Glorfindel and Ecthelion go with him to Tumladen; Aredhel left in charge of Nevrast while Turgon is gone; Aredhel’s choice is significant for her; Aredhel forces Turgon to explain why hiding in Gondolin is a good idea; Aredhel should not appear impatient; she should want to leave Gondolin when it seems like Turgon’s vision is starting to fail; Turgon will realize that Gondolin is somehow linked to the eventual victory of Morgoth; he will eventually come to believe that the survival of Gondolin is the victory
  • Episode 13 scene of Ulmo in Valinor; Aule is still mad at the Noldor and is against intervention; glimpse of how Ulmo is directly involved and the other Valar are indirectly involved; after telling Turgon about the armor, Ulmo goes back to Valinor
  • Finrod goes to Doriath; first meeting between Finrod and Thingol since Ban; his visit is a conciliatory gesture; Finrod is diplomatically offering Thingol a chance to help with the leaguer, flattering Thingol about Menegroth; Thingol is reluctant to help Finrod because Finrod concealed the Kinslaying; Celeborn should tell Thingol that he knew about the Kinslaying; Thingol feels more hurt and betrayed than angry; Celeborn reveals that he concealed the Kinslaying in order to advocate for Finrod maybe because Galadriel told him to; Galadriel blames herself for the dispute between Celeborn and offers to leave; Celeborn proposes to her in response to this; Melian tells Thingol that both Celeborn and Finrod are thinking of all the Elves working together and points out that most of the Noldor are complying with the Ban; Galadriel and Celeborn are kind of parallel to Eowyn and Faramir; Galadriel and Celeborn will eventually choose to leave Doriath because Thingol’s attitude towards Celeborn has changed; Galadriel and Celeborn will visit Ossiriand for their honeymoon
Episode 12
  • Building of Nargothrond and Gondolin will take place here; Aredhel’s farewell tour; captive Noldor in Angband
  • Will be discussed more next session
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Turgon’s obsession with Gondolin reminds me of Denethor’s with Gondor and Minas Tirith. I have an idea for the Frame where Aragorn’s time in Gondor coincides with the Fall of Gondolin, with Maeglin’s jealousy evoked by Denethor (though Denethor never betrays Gondor).
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
SilmFilm Session 4-23: Episodes 11 & 12

Episode 11
  • Turgon finds Tumladen with Ulmo’s help; how does Ulmo’s appearance to Turgon happen?; the aid of Ulmo is not shocking to Turgon and Finrod, as they know that Ulmo sometimes acts independently of the Valar; Ulmo’s motivation for getting involved is not clear until Episode 13; Turgon gets message from Ulmo to go to Tumladen; birds help show him the way; thrush knocking reveals the secret way; Turgon encounters Thorondor in the valley; Glorfindel and Ecthelion go with him to Tumladen; Aredhel left in charge of Nevrast while Turgon is gone; Aredhel’s choice is significant for her; Aredhel forces Turgon to explain why hiding in Gondolin is a good idea; Aredhel should not appear impatient; she should want to leave Gondolin when it seems like Turgon’s vision is starting to fail; Turgon will realize that Gondolin is somehow linked to the eventual victory of Morgoth; he will eventually come to believe that the survival of Gondolin is the victory
  • Episode 13 scene of Ulmo in Valinor; Aule is still mad at the Noldor and is against intervention; glimpse of how Ulmo is directly involved and the other Valar are indirectly involved; after telling Turgon about the armor, Ulmo goes back to Valinor
  • Finrod goes to Doriath; first meeting between Finrod and Thingol since Ban; his visit is a conciliatory gesture; Finrod is diplomatically offering Thingol a chance to help with the leaguer, flattering Thingol about Menegroth; Thingol is reluctant to help Finrod because Finrod concealed the Kinslaying; Celeborn should tell Thingol that he knew about the Kinslaying; Thingol feels more hurt and betrayed than angry; Celeborn reveals that he concealed the Kinslaying in order to advocate for Finrod maybe because Galadriel told him to; Galadriel blames herself for the dispute between Celeborn and offers to leave; Celeborn proposes to her in response to this; Melian tells Thingol that both Celeborn and Finrod are thinking of all the Elves working together and points out that most of the Noldor are complying with the Ban; Galadriel and Celeborn are kind of parallel to Eowyn and Faramir; Galadriel and Celeborn will eventually choose to leave Doriath because Thingol’s attitude towards Celeborn has changed; Galadriel and Celeborn will visit Ossiriand for their honeymoon
Episode 12
  • Building of Nargothrond and Gondolin will take place here; Aredhel’s farewell tour; captive Noldor in Angband
  • Will be discussed more next session
Well, doesn’t Thingol not contribute much to the Wars in Beleriand? The book says that he participated little until Beren comes to Doriath.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Thorongil and Denethor as parallels for Tuor and Maeglin is interesting!

I remember someone pointing out once that Denethor's marriage to Finduilas (and the birth of Boromir) overlapped with the end of Aragorn's time in Gondor. The suggestion being that Aragorn could have been Boromir's father (though there's no reason to think that).



As for Ulmo, I think the idea is that the Noldor (or at least Turgon and Finrod) welcome his intervention, so whether or not it's surprising, it isn't something they're questioning deeply and mostly just accepting at face value because they're grateful for it.

The viewers, though, might be questioning why and wherefore, which is why it would be good to have a check-in with Valinor before the end of the season.
 

Rhiannon

Active Member
Well, doesn’t Thingol not contribute much to the Wars in Beleriand? The book says that he participated little until Beren comes to Doriath.
He doesn't, but Finrod is trying to mend diplomatic relations with Thingol in the hopes that he will.
 
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