Session 4-24: Episodes 12 and 13

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Our (final?) session covering Season 4 will be next Thursday Sept. 19th at 10 PM Eastern Time.

Our goal is to discuss Episodes 12 (the building of Nargothrond and Gondolin) and 13 (the season finale with the attack of Glaurung).

Assuming we get through both of those....we will be wrapping up the Season 4 discussion and moving into the post-season after that!

For those who are new to the project this season, discussion here in this sub-forum tends to be rather quiet in the post-season, as people are focused on all the other forums - nominations for casting, finding sets/locations photos, posting artwork/costume designs/maps, music, etc.

...and of course the script outlines (and actual scripts this time!) to review.

So, for those of you who have been patiently waiting for that to begin....soon!
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Our (final?) session covering Season 4 will be next Thursday Sept. 20th at 10 PM Eastern Time.

Our goal is to discuss Episodes 12 (the building of Nargothrond and Gondolin) and 13 (the season finale with the attack of Glaurung).

Assuming we get through both of those....we will be wrapping up the Season 4 discussion and moving into the post-season after that!

For those who are new to the project this season, discussion here in this sub-forum tends to be rather quiet in the post-season, as people are focused on all the other forums - nominations for casting, finding sets/locations photos, posting artwork/costume designs/maps, music, etc.

...and of course the script outlines (and actual scripts this time!) to review.

So, for those of you who have been patiently waiting for that to begin....soon!
I thought they said the 19th.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Here's the notes I currently have on Episodes 12 & 13.


Episode 12:

In Episode 12, Thingol introduces Finrod to Norn, who makes arrangements for Finrod to use the caves by the River Narog. Norn evicts the Petty-dwarves (the Exiled, Houseless Dwarves). Mablung and Norn have a final conversation, a follow-up of Norn's story in Episode 2. The construction of Nargothrond. Gondolin is under construction, and Aredhel makes the decision to go with Turgon to his new secret city. To lead up to that decision, she makes a 'farewell tour' of Beleriand. Siege of Angband in place

  • Captive Noldor in Angband enslaved (Díriel)
    • Annael captured?
  • Building Nargothrond
    • The dwarves evict the petty dwarves (Exiles)
    • Mablung and Norn discuss unforgivable divisions among kin (a follow-up of an earlier conversation, but now Mablung knows about the Kinslaying)
  • Building Gondolin
    • Passage of Time?
    • Ange1e4e5 suggests this scene from Notting Hill as a model, with the idea that we could show the city spring up, children grow up, etc, in a continuous camera shot
    • Rhiannon: How different will Gondolin look when it is first built than when Tuor comes to it almost 400 years later
  • Ulmo appears to Turgon and tells him to leave the armor behind (vision of armor in throne room)
    • Rhiannon: “If we are going to make Ulmo rise dramatically out of the sea for one of the appearances, I think it should be the second one. I don't think Tuor's armor and the fact that he will come bearing a message from Ulmo is a secret among the Gondolindrim.”
    • Haakon: “Because of the Doom and the general stance of the Valar, we should assume that Ulmo is approaching Turgon with as much subtlety as possible. Also, the text says that Ulmo shows himself to Turgon, not to a group of people. A group seeing him would probably have various ripple effects, something would go wrong in the worst case. To me, it seems it probably is a dreamlike experience. Ulmo can access Turgon this way, but perhaps not Tuor, so to talk to him and convince him, he has to be more obvious.”
    • Ange1e4e5: Like “Obi-wan appearing to Luke in Empire Strikes Back.”
  • The decision of the folk of Nevrast (Sindar under Galdor and Noldor under Turgon) to move to Gondolin
  • Aredhel’s connection to Idril and her decision to go with Turgon (rather than stay behind with Fingon/Fingolfin)
    • Turgon 'sells' her on the purpose from his vision from Ulmo
  • Some teaser/glimpse of Morgoth being up to something to prime the audience for Glaurung’s escape in the finale

Episode 13: Finale
  • Galadriel and Celeborn’s wedding; <s>leave Doriath?</s>
  • Rhogrin/Annael escape to warn the elves of the threat of Glaurung?
    • Ange1e4e5 would like to see Rhogrin hacking his way through a row of orcs like Darth Vader in Rogue One:
  • Glaurung’s escape from Angband, leaving a swath of destruction
  • Fingon’s efforts to push Glaurung back (horses/archers)
  • The people of Nevrast move to Gondolin in secret
  • Turgon locked away in Gondolin; Nevrast empty
  • Finrod safely in Nargothrond
    • Amon Ethir built after news of Glaurung?
    • Ange1e4e5: “Should Amon Ethir, the great earthen mound raised by Finrod where Nienor encounters Glaurung, be part of the construction project?”
    • Rhiannon: “Finrod could have it built in the season finale to show the people of Nargothrond's increasing watchfulness after they get news of Glaurung.”
  • Ulmo returns to Valinor and discusses his plans/interventions with Manwë, Mandos, Aulë, etc.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Will Norn reveal to Mablung that the Petty Dwarves were evicted? How much more of the Petty Dwarves' story will he reveal? Presumably, Mablung will share whatever he learns from Norn with Beleg at some point off screen, so this will impact how much Beleg knows about Mim, or at least Mim's people, when he finds Turin in Amon Rudh.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Will Norn reveal to Mablung that the Petty Dwarves were evicted? How much more of the Petty Dwarves' story will he reveal? Presumably, Mablung will share whatever he learns from Norn with Beleg at some point off screen, so this will impact how much Beleg knows about Mim, or at least Mim's people, when he finds Turin in Amon Rudh.
How much does Mablung tell Beleg? It seems like he didn't tell him enough since Beleg didn't anticipate Mim's betrayal.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Building Gondolin
  • Passage of Time?
  • Ange1e4e5 suggests this scene from Notting Hill as a model, with the idea that we could show the city spring up, children grow up, etc, in a continuous camera shot
We could combine this idea with showing Aredhel and Glorfindel training Idril in sword fighting and hunting. They could run through gardens as trees and bushes grow, through streets with newly erected buildings, across fields that are at one time meadows, at another time farmed, jump across streams and later practice swordplay on a bridge that has been built on the same site.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I don't think it's been definitively discussed, but what's Aredhel's skillset as far as weapons are concerned? Archery? Swords? Spears?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I don't think it's been definitively discussed, but what's Aredhel's skillset as far as weapons are concerned? Archery? Swords? Spears?
I think she's probably capable of using just about any weapon. In Episode 5, I had Aredhel come in second to Beleg in an archery contest.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
We could combine this idea with showing Aredhel and Glorfindel training Idril in sword fighting and hunting. They could run through gardens as trees and bushes grow, through streets with newly erected buildings, across fields that are at one time meadows, at another time farmed, jump across streams and later practice swordplay on a bridge that has been built on the same site.
I like the idea of a montage of activities, but I'm not sure the focus should be training Idril because I've already done some of that this season. In Episode 3, I had Turgon and Fingolfin teaching Idril swordplay, and, in Episode 2, I had Aredhel asking Galadriel to go hunting in the woods with her and Idril. We could, however, just show them practicing these activities, or we could show other children being trained (maybe Pengolodh?).

Turgon's people spend 52 years building Gondolin then move in when it is completed, so I think most people will be in Nevrast still while the city itself is being built. Maybe we could show a montage of the construction happening while seasons change around the builders or trees grow nearby, and we could have a different montage that shows the Gondolindrim actually living in Gondolin after they have moved in.

It might be cool to interleave shots of the building of Gondolin and Nargothrond to contrast them. The towers of Gondolin get higher as the caves of Nargothrond get deeper.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
How do the other Noldor react to the desertion of Nevrast? They don't know where the people of Nevrast are going or that Turgon has built Gondolin. Do they suspect he is establishing a refuge, or do they at first think something bad has happened to them? We showed Fingolfin ready to go war with the Feanorian camp over Fingon being missing for a few days. Will he be concerned about Turgon going missing for several hundred years?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
How do the other Noldor react to the desertion of Nevrast? They don't know where the people of Nevrast are going or that Turgon has built Gondolin. Do they suspect he is establishing a refuge, or do they at first think something bad has happened to them? We showed Fingolfin ready to go war with the Feanorian camp over Fingon being missing for a few days. Will he be concerned about Turgon going missing for several hundred years?
Not sure how to handle this. On the one hand Fingolfin doesn't seem suspicious of Turgon's hundreds-long absence, on the other nobody knows how to get to Gondolin unless they're shown by divine intervention (Hurin and Huor, Tuor), so its designation as a refuge is somewhat suspect.

I think that Turgon completely loses sight of Gondolin's purpose when he, on the advice of Maeglin, rejects Tuor's message from Ulmo in because he not only does not permit anyone to leave, he has Gondolin sealed off so nobody can enter so not even the purpose of Gondolin being a refuge is remembered.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Presumably, Fingolfin knows what Turgon is up to, even if he does not himself know the precise location of Gondolin.

The name 'Gondolin' doesn't seem to be a secret - so I think the other Noldor know that it exists, and that Turgon and his people have 'gone somewhere'...it's just that no one knows...where.

So, there is some mystery in their vanishing, but it's not a lost colony of Roanoke situation where they are missing, presumed dead. (Though instead of "Croatoan," someone could carve "Gondolin" on a tree.)
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Presumably, Fingolfin knows what Turgon is up to, even if he does not himself know the precise location of Gondolin.

The name 'Gondolin' doesn't seem to be a secret - so I think the other Noldor know that it exists, and that Turgon and his people have 'gone somewhere'...it's just that no one knows...where.

So, there is some mystery in their vanishing, but it's not a lost colony of Roanoke situation where they are missing, presumed dead. (Though instead of "Croatoan," someone could carve "Gondolin" on a tree.)
Will Turgon tell Fingolfin that he’s moving and goodbye?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Perhaps part of Aredhel's job on her farewell tour could be to deliver news to Fingolfin and Fingon that they are leaving.

We should probably keep in mind that the farewell tour is the last chance Aredhel is going to have to see any of her family outside of Gondolin again. Will she visit Celegorm and Curufin before going to Gondolin? Maybe not having said goodbye to them will be part of the reason she chooses to go east instead of west when she leaves Gondolin.

Also, the only member of his family outside of Gondolin that Turgon will get to see again is Fingon, shortly before he dies in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. I guess he technically sees Fingolfin's body when Thorondor bears it to Gondolin, and he may see the Sons of Feanor across the battlefield, but he doesn't get to interact with any of them.

Do we want Turgon and Finrod to ever realize that they had the same dream and have both been establishing secret realms? Maybe Turgon could stop by Minas Tirith on his way to Gondolin to say goodbye to Finrod, but Finrod is away in Nargothrond, and Orodreth does not tell Turgon where Finrod is. Then, the last time Turgon and Finrod were together would be when they had their dreams from Ulmo that they didn't mention to each other, and Turgon may not learn that Finrod is dead until the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. That would be kind of tragic, but maybe that something we want.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Perhaps part of Aredhel's job on her farewell tour could be to deliver news to Fingolfin and Fingon that they are leaving.

We should probably keep in mind that the farewell tour is the last chance Aredhel is going to have to see any of her family outside of Gondolin again. Will she visit Celegorm and Curufin before going to Gondolin? Maybe not having said goodbye to them will be part of the reason she chooses to go east instead of west when she leaves Gondolin.

Also, the only member of his family outside of Gondolin that Turgon will get to see again is Fingon, shortly before he dies in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. I guess he technically sees Fingolfin's body when Thorondor bears it to Gondolin, and he may see the Sons of Feanor across the battlefield, but he doesn't get to interact with any of them.

Do we want Turgon and Finrod to ever realize that they had the same dream and have both been establishing secret realms? Maybe Turgon could stop by Minas Tirith on his way to Gondolin to say goodbye to Finrod, but Finrod is away in Nargothrond, and Orodreth does not tell Turgon where Finrod is. Then, the last time Turgon and Finrod were together would be when they had their dreams from Ulmo that they didn't mention to each other, and Turgon may not learn that Finrod is dead until the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. That would be kind of tragic, but maybe that something we want.
Would Turgon give Aredhel a time limit for her farewell tour?
 
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