Session 4-24: Episodes 12 and 13

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, it seems logical that he should feel weaker. That's simply how things work for him. On the other hand, showing him becoming deformed and weaker everytime he does something powerful doesn't really work. People will think he hasn't got anything left after a while, that he's finished, and that's not true. It also risks becoming comical. I think the problems with this make good arguments to not showing the creation of Glaurung at all. Perhaps he's a bit weakened but the change is subtle, and he's doing a number of things so we c an't say it's because of the dragon project.
I wouldn't say that Morgoth is particularly weakened by the creation of Glaurung, since he's able to mass-produce Dragons at little loss.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
We could certainly do more gaunt, more strained. Maybe something like Voldemort? After making two Horcruxes by 1946 (age 19-20) he doesn't look much different than he does as the preserved memory in Chamber of Secrets, with the exception of his cheeks being more hollowed, but the book describes him as more handsome than ever.
  • After making five Horcruxes ten years later:
  • "Voldemort had entered the room. His features were not those Harry had seen emerge from the great stone cauldron almost two years ago: They were not as snake-like, the eyes were not yet scarlet, the face not yet masklike, and yet he was no longer handsome Tom Riddle. It was as though his features had been burned and blurred; they were waxy and oddly distorted, and the whites of the eyes now had a permanently bloody look, though the pupils were not yet the slits that Harry knew they would become. He was wearing a long black cloak, and his face was as pale as the snow glistening on his shoulders."
We could also go the Michael Myers route with Morgoth's features looking less like a face but a caricature of humanity. In the history section of this wiki page, they chose the Captain Kirk Mask because it was emotionless and inscrutable.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Theoretically yes. Dragons seem to reproduce just fine without a Dark Lord around though how is not explained. I think it’s getting too complex...
I come back to the idea that there are various monsters and evils remaining in Angband after the fall of Utumno. Glaurung could be given freedom to choose someone (or more than one) to mate with. But then again, we do not have to show this.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Alternatively, Glaurung is able to reproduce by himself. This is something some snakes and lizards can do, so it wouldn't be a weird idea.

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20151216-virgin-births-are-happening-everywhere
Why not?

On contrasting dragons throughout literature: I remember that the dragons in ASOIAF are described as gender-fluid, complete with in-universe debate about whether or not dragons are male or female. In the Inheritance Cycle and Harry Potter, dragons are distinctly male or female; Saphira's parents are named in-text as Iomûngur and Vervada (Inheritance), and for Harry Potter, the Triwizard Tournament apparently wanted nesting mothers for the Champions to face and that female dragons are more vicious. I think we can keep the question of dragon reproduction ambiguous.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Why not?

On contrasting dragons throughout literature: I remember that the dragons in ASOIAF are described as gender-fluid, complete with in-universe debate about whether or not dragons are male or female. In the Inheritance Cycle and Harry Potter, dragons are distinctly male or female; Saphira's parents are named in-text as Iomûngur and Vervada (Inheritance), and for Harry Potter, the Triwizard Tournament apparently wanted nesting mothers for the Champions to face and that female dragons are more vicious. I think we can keep the question of dragon reproduction ambiguous.
Personally, I don't think we need to overcomplicate this. If we don't go into detail on this, the audience will likely assume that dragons reproduce the way most vertebrates do.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I don’t think that having Fingolfin be overconfident works. In Chapter 18, he calls for an assault on Angband to take out Morgoth, but everyone else is complacent with only Angrod and Aegnor supporting him.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
SilmFilm Session 4-24: Episodes 12 & 13

Episode 12
  • How to show the passage of time? Need to show passage of time from an Elvish point of view and capture timelessness of Elves; time in Middle-earth affects Elves differently; construction projects show that time has passed; Gondolin is better for showing this because it is not all underground; have several shots showing Gondolin closer to completion; numbers of how many years have passed can come up in conversation like mentioning how long the siege has been in place; showing difference in how Elves perceive time can wait until Men show up; a time lapse scene of things appearing as someone walks might make it seem too unrealistic; we don’t really need to show a huge amount of time passing in the middle of this episode; when Men show up, their aging will clearly indicate the passing of time; characters should be lulled into a sense of lasting peace; Fingolfin can be overconfident and hopeful; pleased that the leaguer was working; Fingolfin has less direct experience with Morgoth; he got away with defying Morgoth at his gates when he first arrived; Fingon can be in agreement with Fingolfin at first but change his mind after Glaurung (mostly addressed next season); Feanorians do not believe the war is won while they hold the Silmarils;
  • Climax of this episode is Aredhel’s decision to go to Gondolin; Aredhel’s farewell tour can be full of conversations demonstrating that the siege is working well; Ulmo’s last appearance to Turgon will be in person, a public and formal visitation; Aredhel should not question Ulmo’s words; Idril should have a scene looking up at the suit of armor; Idril could be there when Ulmo gives the instructions because Ulmo talks about Tuor and planning ahead; more witnesses to this vision for the increased drama; Ulmo’s appearance should not be just like his later appearance to Tuor; maybe Turgon and Idril could make Tuor’s armor together; Ulmo appears in the throne room; reverse Elwing – arrives as a bird and turns into an Elf or arrives as an Elf and then jumps out the window and turns into a bird; viewers may not know it is Ulmo at first; encounter between Ecthelion and Ulmo
  • Need scene of Gondolin under construction with Turgon there at the beginning of the episode; Ulmo’s appearance; making armor; later scene of Gondolin more complete where Turgon convinces Aredhel
  • Captives in Angband; Aredhel talks to Curufin about Diriel being missing; Aredhel goes to visit Fingolfin and Fingon first and talks about siege; show Fingon’s cavalry; goes to visit Feanorians; Feanorians want to storm Angband in contrast with Fingolfin; Aredhel will come around to the Feanorian way of thinking, which is why she will eventually leave Gondolin
  • The second scene of the episode is the eviction of the Petty-dwarves; Norn gives Nargothrond to Finrod; another scene is conversation between Norn and Mablung; then Mablung and Beleg show Finrod around
Episode 13
  • Galadriel and Celeborn’s wedding happens before Glaurung’s attack; they go off on their honeymoon to Ossiriand
  • Glaurung’s appearance should be unexpected for everyone; his first attack is on a group of Elves on the plains; something large and fiery destroys their camp; Fingon and his people discover the trail; tension in fight; well-executed risky plan; they have short range bows; Glaurung is really fast; some of Fingon’s people die; riding towards Glaurung seems insane; chase Glaurung back to the gates of Angband; Glaurung turns back to face Fingon at the gates with some Balrogs and fire behind him; Final shot is Galadriel and Celeborn arriving in Ossiriand then camps of Men on the other side of the mountains
  • Move into Gondolin; covered in mist from the river; Aredhel tells Fingolfin about Gondolin; Turgon seals gates
  • Finrod in Nargothrond upon Amon Ethir juxtaposed with Glaurung
  • Valinor scene in Episode 12 if at all
  • Rhogrin still in Angband until next season
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I’m not really sure if Fingolfin should be the overconfident one. Chapter 18 says that Fingolfin called for the assault on Angband to take out Morgoth once and for all, but the rest of the Noldor were unwilling to risk their strength and were content, with the exception of Angrod (now deceased in our version) and Aegnor. It doesn’t sound like he’s complacent and I feel like this kinda got swept aside.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I’m not really sure if Fingolfin should be the overconfident one. Chapter 18 says that Fingolfin called for the assault on Angband to take out Morgoth once and for all, but the rest of the Noldor were unwilling to risk their strength and were content, with the exception of Angrod (now deceased in our version) and Aegnor. It doesn’t sound like he’s complacent and I feel like this kinda got swept aside.
What the hosts suggested was the exact opposite. They wanted the Feanorians to be in favor of attacking Angband and Fingolfin to be confident that the siege will hold.

While Fingolfin does say that Morgoth could not break the leaguer of the Eldar “save by treason among themselves” after the Dagor Aglareb (I had him deliver this line in episode 10), I agree that he should not be overconfident about the siege.

Maybe instead he could be shown as very devoted to the siege and focused on constantly building up the Noldor’s defenses.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
SilmFilm Session 4-24: Episodes 12 & 13

Episode 12
  • How to show the passage of time? Need to show passage of time from an Elvish point of view and capture timelessness of Elves; time in Middle-earth affects Elves differently; construction projects show that time has passed; Gondolin is better for showing this because it is not all underground; have several shots showing Gondolin closer to completion; numbers of how many years have passed can come up in conversation like mentioning how long the siege has been in place; showing difference in how Elves perceive time can wait until Men show up; a time lapse scene of things appearing as someone walks might make it seem too unrealistic; we don’t really need to show a huge amount of time passing in the middle of this episode; when Men show up, their aging will clearly indicate the passing of time; characters should be lulled into a sense of lasting peace; Fingolfin can be overconfident and hopeful; pleased that the leaguer was working; Fingolfin has less direct experience with Morgoth; he got away with defying Morgoth at his gates when he first arrived; Fingon can be in agreement with Fingolfin at first but change his mind after Glaurung (mostly addressed next season); Feanorians do not believe the war is won while they hold the Silmarils;
  • Climax of this episode is Aredhel’s decision to go to Gondolin; Aredhel’s farewell tour can be full of conversations demonstrating that the siege is working well; Ulmo’s last appearance to Turgon will be in person, a public and formal visitation; Aredhel should not question Ulmo’s words; Idril should have a scene looking up at the suit of armor; Idril could be there when Ulmo gives the instructions because Ulmo talks about Tuor and planning ahead; more witnesses to this vision for the increased drama; Ulmo’s appearance should not be just like his later appearance to Tuor; maybe Turgon and Idril could make Tuor’s armor together; Ulmo appears in the throne room; reverse Elwing – arrives as a bird and turns into an Elf or arrives as an Elf and then jumps out the window and turns into a bird; viewers may not know it is Ulmo at first; encounter between Ecthelion and Ulmo
  • Need scene of Gondolin under construction with Turgon there at the beginning of the episode; Ulmo’s appearance; making armor; later scene of Gondolin more complete where Turgon convinces Aredhel
  • Captives in Angband; Aredhel talks to Curufin about Diriel being missing; Aredhel goes to visit Fingolfin and Fingon first and talks about siege; show Fingon’s cavalry; goes to visit Feanorians; Feanorians want to storm Angband in contrast with Fingolfin; Aredhel will come around to the Feanorian way of thinking, which is why she will eventually leave Gondolin
  • The second scene of the episode is the eviction of the Petty-dwarves; Norn gives Nargothrond to Finrod; another scene is conversation between Norn and Mablung; then Mablung and Beleg show Finrod around
Episode 13
  • Galadriel and Celeborn’s wedding happens before Glaurung’s attack; they go off on their honeymoon to Ossiriand
  • Glaurung’s appearance should be unexpected for everyone; his first attack is on a group of Elves on the plains; something large and fiery destroys their camp; Fingon and his people discover the trail; tension in fight; well-executed risky plan; they have short range bows; Glaurung is really fast; some of Fingon’s people die; riding towards Glaurung seems insane; chase Glaurung back to the gates of Angband; Glaurung turns back to face Fingon at the gates with some Balrogs and fire behind him; Final shot is Galadriel and Celeborn arriving in Ossiriand then camps of Men on the other side of the mountains
  • Move into Gondolin; covered in mist from the river; Aredhel tells Fingolfin about Gondolin; Turgon seals gates
  • Finrod in Nargothrond upon Amon Ethir juxtaposed with Glaurung
  • Valinor scene in Episode 12 if at all
  • Rhogrin still in Angband until next season
I thought we weren’t introducing Men until next season.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I thought we weren’t introducing Men until next season.
Some of those notes refer to how the passage of time will be easier to depict in later seasons once we have Men to compare to Elves.

In this season, Men only appear in the final shot of Episode 13. They are camped on the eastern side of Ered Lindon and will soon cross the mountains so Finrod can find them.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Correct, Men meet Elves in the first episode of Season 5. Teasing the content for the next season is part of the job of a Season Finale, though. Men do exist and are on the move at this point in time.


Yes, if you will recall, they walked back the language 'overconfident' during the session, and instead decided that Fingolfin would focus on pride in what they have accomplished with the Siege, and hope for the future of the Noldor in Beleriand. Being hopeful that the Watchful Peace can continue is not the same thing as being overconfident or underestimating Morgoth. Sure *we* know the Siege is going to fail, so any hope or trust or faith in it will ultimately prove false. But that doesn't have to mean that anyone with any hope is being overconfident and brash. They requested a Fingolfin who would trust in the Noldor's preparations and watchfulness, rather than be in any way dismissive of their enemy. Fingon is in agreement with him throughout Season 4, but begins to doubt they can succeed in Season 5.

Also...the Siege continues for 400 years. Fingolfin is the military commander of all the Noldor (as High King) throughout that time. So, 'SIEGE' has to be his plan (the plan that he supports) because...that is what they do. If Fingolfin says, 'hey guys, let's attack Morgoth!' and everyone's response is 'eh, I'm not really feeling that; can we take a raincheck?' it means that we're portraying the High King as someone who does not have the authority or ability to make that happen. But, somehow, Fingon does a bit later? So, it causes problems if we have Fingolfin pushing for War with Morgoth and the other Noldor dismissing him. There's no reason we couldn't have Fingolfin feel out everyone, and dismiss the idea of war himself because everyone seems pretty content with the peacetime arrangements created by the Siege. But to have him push for war and be shot down? I don't see how we can make that work.

Also...under what circumstances is Maedhros going to be totally cool with continuing an indefinite siege and show no interest in attacking Morgoth? The Fëanorean approach to coming to Middle-earth has always been, first and foremost, fight Morgoth. And as long as Morgoth holds the silmarils, they are Oath-bound to fight him. So, if Fingolfin were to suggest an attack on Angband...what reason would Maedhros have to say no? Would he argue that they aren't strong enough? Waiting isn't going to change that (elf reproduction rates being what they are). We had Maedhros pushing Fingolfin to go to war with Morgoth in Episode 3; when Fingolfin turned down that suggestion, Maedhros settled for moving his group to the east and helping to fortify Beleriand. We can't just...forget that conversation happened.

Also, at the end of the day, who would you propose express confidence in the continuing Siege if not Fingolfin? *Someone* has to think this is going to work, and say so on screen. Thingol's not an option; he's trusting in the Girdle of Melian, not his kinslaying Noldor neighbors. Turgon and Finrod aren't options; they got unsettling dreams from Ulmo and set out to build safe havens against the possibility of the Siege breaking. Aredhel chooses to go to Gondolin, so she's out (same with Idril). That leaves the Fëanoreans, Aegnor, Galadriel, Fingolfin, Fingon, and Círdan as your options. Do you see a better choice than Fingolfin on that list?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Correct, Men meet Elves in the first episode of Season 5. Teasing the content for the next season is part of the job of a Season Finale, though. Men do exist and are on the move at this point in time.


Yes, if you will recall, they walked back the language 'overconfident' during the session, and instead decided that Fingolfin would focus on pride in what they have accomplished with the Siege, and hope for the future of the Noldor in Beleriand. Being hopeful that the Watchful Peace can continue is not the same thing as being overconfident or underestimating Morgoth. Sure *we* know the Siege is going to fail, so any hope or trust or faith in it will ultimately prove false. But that doesn't have to mean that anyone with any hope is being overconfident and brash. They requested a Fingolfin who would trust in the Noldor's preparations and watchfulness, rather than be in any way dismissive of their enemy. Fingon is in agreement with him throughout Season 4, but begins to doubt they can succeed in Season 5.

Also...the Siege continues for 400 years. Fingolfin is the military commander of all the Noldor (as High King) throughout that time. So, 'SIEGE' has to be his plan (the plan that he supports) because...that is what they do. If Fingolfin says, 'hey guys, let's attack Morgoth!' and everyone's response is 'eh, I'm not really feeling that; can we take a raincheck?' it means that we're portraying the High King as someone who does not have the authority or ability to make that happen. But, somehow, Fingon does a bit later? So, it causes problems if we have Fingolfin pushing for War with Morgoth and the other Noldor dismissing him. There's no reason we couldn't have Fingolfin feel out everyone, and dismiss the idea of war himself because everyone seems pretty content with the peacetime arrangements created by the Siege. But to have him push for war and be shot down? I don't see how we can make that work.

Also...under what circumstances is Maedhros going to be totally cool with continuing an indefinite siege and show no interest in attacking Morgoth? The Fëanorean approach to coming to Middle-earth has always been, first and foremost, fight Morgoth. And as long as Morgoth holds the silmarils, they are Oath-bound to fight him. So, if Fingolfin were to suggest an attack on Angband...what reason would Maedhros have to say no? Would he argue that they aren't strong enough? Waiting isn't going to change that (elf reproduction rates being what they are). We had Maedhros pushing Fingolfin to go to war with Morgoth in Episode 3; when Fingolfin turned down that suggestion, Maedhros settled for moving his group to the east and helping to fortify Beleriand. We can't just...forget that conversation happened.

Also, at the end of the day, who would you propose express confidence in the continuing Siege if not Fingolfin? *Someone* has to think this is going to work, and say so on screen. Thingol's not an option; he's trusting in the Girdle of Melian, not his kinslaying Noldor neighbors. Turgon and Finrod aren't options; they got unsettling dreams from Ulmo and set out to build safe havens against the possibility of the Siege breaking. Aredhel chooses to go to Gondolin, so she's out (same with Idril). That leaves the Fëanoreans, Aegnor, Galadriel, Fingolfin, Fingon, and Círdan as your options. Do you see a better choice than Fingolfin on that list?
I'm not really sure who, it's just that the confident Fingolfin we have here seems to clash with the one in the published Silmarillion who proposes the assault on Morgoth.
 
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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
If we just went with what’s in the PubSil, Fingolfin would become too marginal. He risks just being the King, basically, and then die.
 
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