Session 4-24: Episodes 12 and 13

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I really don't think we do contradict the text. In the beginning of Chapter 18, Fingolfin comes to that conclusion (hey, let's attack Morgoth!) specifically because he sees that the hosts of Men who have moved into his realm have seriously bolstered the numbers of his army. That...hasn't happened yet. That's at least six generations of Men in the future. And that gives the Fëanoreans a reason to turn down the idea - they don't have armies of Men backing them like Dorthonion and Hithlum do. And people become a lot more complacent about peacetime after 400 years of it, so the Noldor thinking that Morgoth can't beat them makes more sense the later into the story we get....though obviously Morgoth has more might than that. Just as Turgon will eventually turn aside from the true purpose of Gondolin and cherish it in its own right, but right now he's all about Ulmo's message and the mission he received from the Vala.

So, aside from being a question for Season 5, I think that Fingolfin could have a general trust in the Siege while not being overconfident that Morgoth will *never* break through without contradicting this text. We are going to show his despair in the aftermath of the Dagor Bragollach - he had to have some hopes that were dashed for that despair to make any sense. Sure, those hopes could be tempered by fears, but some part of him thought they'd managed to keep Beleriand safe from Morgoth prior to that battle.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I really don't think we do contradict the text. In the beginning of Chapter 18, Fingolfin comes to that conclusion (hey, let's attack Morgoth!) specifically because he sees that the hosts of Men who have moved into his realm have seriously bolstered the numbers of his army. That...hasn't happened yet. That's at least six generations of Men in the future. And that gives the Fëanoreans a reason to turn down the idea - they don't have armies of Men backing them like Dorthonion and Hithlum do. And people become a lot more complacent about peacetime after 400 years of it, so the Noldor thinking that Morgoth can't beat them makes more sense the later into the story we get....though obviously Morgoth has more might than that. Just as Turgon will eventually turn aside from the true purpose of Gondolin and cherish it in its own right, but right now he's all about Ulmo's message and the mission he received from the Vala.

So, aside from being a question for Season 5, I think that Fingolfin could have a general trust in the Siege while not being overconfident that Morgoth will *never* break through without contradicting this text. We are going to show his despair in the aftermath of the Dagor Bragollach - he had to have some hopes that were dashed for that despair to make any sense. Sure, those hopes could be tempered by fears, but some part of him thought they'd managed to keep Beleriand safe from Morgoth prior to that battle.
I guess I can live with that.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
SilmFilm Session 4-24: Episodes 12 & 13

Episode 12
  • How to show the passage of time? Need to show passage of time from an Elvish point of view and capture timelessness of Elves; time in Middle-earth affects Elves differently; construction projects show that time has passed; Gondolin is better for showing this because it is not all underground; have several shots showing Gondolin closer to completion; numbers of how many years have passed can come up in conversation like mentioning how long the siege has been in place; showing difference in how Elves perceive time can wait until Men show up; a time lapse scene of things appearing as someone walks might make it seem too unrealistic; we don’t really need to show a huge amount of time passing in the middle of this episode; when Men show up, their aging will clearly indicate the passing of time; characters should be lulled into a sense of lasting peace; Fingolfin can be overconfident and hopeful; pleased that the leaguer was working; Fingolfin has less direct experience with Morgoth; he got away with defying Morgoth at his gates when he first arrived; Fingon can be in agreement with Fingolfin at first but change his mind after Glaurung (mostly addressed next season); Feanorians do not believe the war is won while they hold the Silmarils;
  • Climax of this episode is Aredhel’s decision to go to Gondolin; Aredhel’s farewell tour can be full of conversations demonstrating that the siege is working well; Ulmo’s last appearance to Turgon will be in person, a public and formal visitation; Aredhel should not question Ulmo’s words; Idril should have a scene looking up at the suit of armor; Idril could be there when Ulmo gives the instructions because Ulmo talks about Tuor and planning ahead; more witnesses to this vision for the increased drama; Ulmo’s appearance should not be just like his later appearance to Tuor; maybe Turgon and Idril could make Tuor’s armor together; Ulmo appears in the throne room; reverse Elwing – arrives as a bird and turns into an Elf or arrives as an Elf and then jumps out the window and turns into a bird; viewers may not know it is Ulmo at first; encounter between Ecthelion and Ulmo
  • Need scene of Gondolin under construction with Turgon there at the beginning of the episode; Ulmo’s appearance; making armor; later scene of Gondolin more complete where Turgon convinces Aredhel
  • Captives in Angband; Aredhel talks to Curufin about Diriel being missing; Aredhel goes to visit Fingolfin and Fingon first and talks about siege; show Fingon’s cavalry; goes to visit Feanorians; Feanorians want to storm Angband in contrast with Fingolfin; Aredhel will come around to the Feanorian way of thinking, which is why she will eventually leave Gondolin
  • The second scene of the episode is the eviction of the Petty-dwarves; Norn gives Nargothrond to Finrod; another scene is conversation between Norn and Mablung; then Mablung and Beleg show Finrod around
Episode 13
  • Galadriel and Celeborn’s wedding happens before Glaurung’s attack; they go off on their honeymoon to Ossiriand
  • Glaurung’s appearance should be unexpected for everyone; his first attack is on a group of Elves on the plains; something large and fiery destroys their camp; Fingon and his people discover the trail; tension in fight; well-executed risky plan; they have short range bows; Glaurung is really fast; some of Fingon’s people die; riding towards Glaurung seems insane; chase Glaurung back to the gates of Angband; Glaurung turns back to face Fingon at the gates with some Balrogs and fire behind him; Final shot is Galadriel and Celeborn arriving in Ossiriand then camps of Men on the other side of the mountains
  • Move into Gondolin; covered in mist from the river; Aredhel tells Fingolfin about Gondolin; Turgon seals gates
  • Finrod in Nargothrond upon Amon Ethir juxtaposed with Glaurung
  • Valinor scene in Episode 12 if at all
  • Rhogrin still in Angband until next season
On the Gantt Chart, it says something about Morgoth and Sauron having a cryptic conversation about Men. Where should that be squeezed in?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
On the Gantt Chart, it says something about Morgoth and Sauron having a cryptic conversation about Men. Where should that be squeezed in?
What exactly do we want this conversation to accomplish, and how explicit do we want Morgoth to be about what he has been up to?

If we just want to remind the viewers that Men exist, I don't think the conversation is necessary; the final shot of them camped on the eastern side of the mountains will do that. If we want Morgoth to mention something about Men being easily corruptible, it could come after a scene of the prisoners in Angband. If we want Morgoth to suggest that Men will soon be there to fight on his side, it should probably come near the end of the episode, maybe after the defeat of Glaurung.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
What exactly do we want this conversation to accomplish, and how explicit do we want Morgoth to be about what he has been up to?

If we just want to remind the viewers that Men exist, I don't think the conversation is necessary; the final shot of them camped on the eastern side of the mountains will do that. If we want Morgoth to mention something about Men being easily corruptible, it could come after a scene of the prisoners in Angband. If we want Morgoth to suggest that Men will soon be there to fight on his side, it should probably come near the end of the episode, maybe after the defeat of Glaurung.
It seemed to be more along the lines of the suggestion that Men will be there to fight for him or that Morgoth has generally interfered with Men's perception, I think.
 
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Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
In Episode 8, when Morgoth gets back from the east, I have him say this in front of his entire court:

GOTHMOG
How went your task in the east, Lord?

MORGOTH
Gloriously. The Valar dare not hinder me, and soon we shall have a force at our disposal that would horrify the makers of this world.

I tried to make it vague enough that he could be referring to Men or to Dragons. Maybe when he mentions Men again, he can say something about making more Dragons but other forces will be coming also.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Tom Bombadil cameo this season?
I could easily put him somewhere else, but I had Tom Bombadil appear at the end of Episode 6 in a montage of responses to the eclipse:

TOM BOMBADIL looks up at the sky.

TOM BOMBADIL

Hey! Come lovesick moon, in the sky a-pining,
Hide not the merry Sun, let her keep a-shining.
Old Tom likes the dark, just not in the daytime.
Night is when the bad things creep; give them no more spare time.

The eclipse above Tom begins to pass.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, that could work. We do see Tom Bombadil walk through rain by shooing it away from him. But he does have that comment that no one on two feet can control the weather, and an eclipse is certainly more than just the weather....

....but eclipses also pass quite naturally in a reasonable amount of time, so the viewer could easily conclude that his words are fortuitously timed rather than efficacious, if they wish. I think that would be fine.

I was just wondering if we wanted to give him the chance to interact with someone wandering through his territory, but we could save that for next season and have the People of Haleth meet him on their way over or something.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Yeah, that could work. We do see Tom Bombadil walk through rain by shooing it away from him. But he does have that comment that no one on two feet can control the weather, and an eclipse is certainly more than just the weather....

....but eclipses also pass quite naturally in a reasonable amount of time, so the viewer could easily conclude that his words are fortuitously timed rather than efficacious, if they wish. I think that would be fine.

I was just wondering if we wanted to give him the chance to interact with someone wandering through his territory, but we could save that for next season and have the People of Haleth meet him on their way over or something.
Maybe something for the Frame? Gandalf, Bilbo, Balin and Dis are bound to travel through his area on their way to Erebor.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Well, while Gandalf knows of Bombadil, they're not really supposed to spend any time together until after LotR. And I'd rather put Bombadil cameos in the main story whenever possible.

So, I think the eclipse is a good use of Eriador this season.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Yeah, that could work. We do see Tom Bombadil walk through rain by shooing it away from him. But he does have that comment that no one on two feet can control the weather, and an eclipse is certainly more than just the weather....

....but eclipses also pass quite naturally in a reasonable amount of time, so the viewer could easily conclude that his words are fortuitously timed rather than efficacious, if they wish. I think that would be fine.

I was just wondering if we wanted to give him the chance to interact with someone wandering through his territory, but we could save that for next season and have the People of Haleth meet him on their way over or something.
It's just the right amount of ambiguity to me. "Well, eclipses don't last forever anyway, so Tom surely didn't just sort of casually make it end. Right? Right?"
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
General Question: Why is Fingolfin so confident that the Elves can beat Morgoth? From what I know of Morgoth, Morgoth is still a Vala, and they're effectively immortal. They can't kill Morgoth directly.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
General Question: Why is Fingolfin so confident that the Elves can beat Morgoth? From what I know of Morgoth, Morgoth is still a Vala, and they're effectively immortal. They can't kill Morgoth directly.
Do they know that? Morgoth doesn't seem so sure when he goes out to fight Fingolfin next season.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Do they know that? Morgoth doesn't seem so sure when he goes out to fight Fingolfin next season.
I would think that since they can't really beat Maiar (all the sons of Feanor could do was beat off the Balrogs) and Morgoth is more powerful than the Maiar, they wouldn't stand a chance against Morgoth.

Speaking of which, how do we portray Morgoth as being fearful for his own life against Fingolfin? It's a little ridiculous for me, that this guy who can rewrite fate itself (theoretically) and one of the most powerful beings in existence is afraid of something like an Elf who Morgoth could squash like a bug with his hammer.
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I would think that since they can't really beat Maiar (all the sons of Feanor could do was beat off the Balrogs) and Morgoth is more powerful than the Maiar, they wouldn't stand a chance against Morgoth
We don't know that they couldn't have killed the balrogs if that had been their objective. I'd argue that had that been their aim at they time, they very well could have. However, at the time, their main concern was extricating their wounded father from the battlefield, which they successfully accomplished. If the balrogs were actually invulnerable, no amount of force could have beaten them back.

Speaking of which, how do we portray Morgoth as being fearful for his own life against Fingolfin? It's a little ridiculous for me, that this guy who can rewrite fate itself (theoretically) and one of the most powerful beings in existence is afraid of something like an Elf who Morgoth could squash like a bug with his hammer.
Perhaps the issue lies in your perception of the comparative power levels. Or in Morgoth's. For whatever reason, Morgoth certainly seems to have at least a glimmer of doubt.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Even if Morgoth is a god, or demigod, and has supernatural powers, his powers are not without limits, or he'd rule Arda already (or Middle-earth at least). His investing powers in Middle-earth has weakened him, and he knows it. He hasn't been tested in combat since...well, since he barely escaped Ungoliant, so it wouldn't be weird if his confidence is not that great.
 
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