Session 4-29: Script Review Part 5

When should Angrod die?

  • Killed by Gothmog in the Dagor Aglareb

    Votes: 6 54.5%
  • Some other way between the Dagor Aglareb and the Dagor Bragollach

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • In the Dagor Bragollach, possibly with his brother Aegnor

    Votes: 3 27.3%
  • Some time after the Dagor Bragollach, in Angband's prisons

    Votes: 2 18.2%

  • Total voters
    11
  • Poll closed .

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So, it ultimately comes down to language then. We have her speaking English on screen, so maybe she just says "abhorred", and we figure out some way to have "abhorred" subtitled in Sindar at some point (or vice-versa?)? Everyone is all fine with names being words with meanings in fiction, except that in English we don't really do it very often. So in spoken Sindar it would be unclear if she's calling him "sauron" or "Sauron" if you get the distinction, but when we translate it to English, it's either "abhorred" or "Sauron".
Except that Sauron is Quenya instead of Sindarin. In Sindarin he’s known as Gorthaur the Cruel.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Excellent point, but same problem, on her deathbed it's understandable that she slips into Quenya (actually that's even better, if we've got two languages, we have a chance for subtitles).
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Here are my notes for this session:

Episode 9:
  • Sauron can't be in battle, but there should be some closure to the Edhellos-Sauron-Angord arc
  • Edhellos needs to tell Angrod about what Sauron did since Angrod won't see Sauron shapeshift
  • Edhellos dies fighting Balrog and saving someone else's life, maybe Orodreth or Aegnor
Episode 10:
  • When working on Thranduil's story later, remember to keep him distant from Ban on Quenya to explain why he tolerates the dragon-proof gates the Dwarves made
  • Narsil less explicitly anti-Sauron sword, something about breaking bonds or chains
  • change how fire functions in dream, line on horizon or dream lit by fire
Episode 11:
  • Thingol seems really petty when refusing to help Finrod; need to emphasize why it is significant that Finrod is asking to build Nargothrond in the south
  • Finrod should express concern for Galadriel and how she has changed from the ambitious person he once knew
  • When giving Galadriel the engagement ring, Finrod should have the ring on a chain around his neck
  • Galadriel should misinterpret Finrod giving up the ring as him giving up on his relationship with Amarie
To further elaborate here -

Episode 9:
Of the viewpoints/stories of Sauron/Edhellos/Angrod, Angrod's viewpoint is the most interesting and immediately relevant in the context of Season 4's themes. Therefore, I would say there is reason to make Angrod the protagonist of this episode.​
In the choice between saving Orodreth or Aegnor, we would get more payoff for making it Aegnor, because he is going to be very pro-war after this, and having him feel that he owes it to Edhellos to be vigilant. This gives him motivation to turn down Andreth despite their mutual attraction to one another.​
Sauron need not be name-dropped in this episode. What Angrod needs to know is that Edhellos suffered torment in Angband, and that her will has been broken, and that she is now a kinslayer. The details of how Sauron assumed Angrod's appearance to mess with Edhellos may not be something that Angrod ever learns.​
Episode 10:
The resistance to the Ban is an interesting innovation - there are reasons the Noldor don't want to follow it, and ways that they naturally lapse into Quenya. Do we foresee an eventual resolution to this? How is the Ban going to play out in history? And is there any crisis - beyond what happens with Oropher and the dwarves of Moria in the Frame?​
Thranduil will be born after the Fëanoreans sack Doriath. Possibly during the Second Age. Also, he apparently wasn't around when Oropher was constructing the gates of the woodland realm with dwarvish aid, and thus has no personal knowledge of this dispute. Oropher was present for the Second Kinslaying and is strongly anti-Noldor/anti-Quenya.​
And on the important topic of elven pajamas, Trish weighed in to suggest that Glorfindel goes commando :p
Episode 11:
Thingol comes across as very petty. While we do need to set up the Thingol who will be the worst dad ever and a racist jerk in the Beren and Lúthien story, we want to be careful how we handle this. Finrod's request is (mostly) reasonable, so Thingol's reaction should emphasize his hurt more than his anger. In other words...it's okay for Thingol to come across negatively in this episode, but we want to handle his character with nuance and subtlety. (The way we give Norn 'justifications' in Episode 12.)​
Galadriel has one scene with Finrod early in the episode. We need to add a second interaction in which Finrod asks about the Celeborn situation, in a concerned big brother this-isn't-you way. Galadriel defends her relationship with Celeborn and informs the audience why marrying Celeborn is what she wants out of life. We need to see that Galadriel isn't hurt-and-needing-Celeborn-to-help-her-heal; she's choosing Celeborn for her future vision, as well. At the end of the conversation, Finrod takes the ring he's been wearing on a chain around his neck out and gives it to Galadriel (thus conferring his blessing on their relationship), suggesting that she will have need of it, and he no longer does, as he will never give it to Amarië.​
So...why is Galadriel marrying Celeborn? Let's come up with a compelling answer to that question!​
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I have always been wanting to resist the labelling of Celeborn as a useless bore, and I want him to be shown as active and wise during the first and second ages. Part of this (and crucial) is to show that he and Galadriel are really in love. Usually, we talk about how elves have a deep and strong soul connection with the love of their life, a bond that holds over ages and despite the death of one or both. This should be true about Galadriel and Celeborn as well of course. I can’t understand why this isn’t obvious. Galadriel knows through the love she feels that Celeborn is her destiny. She can give her reasons for feeling good about this destiny, but she would go ahead even if she had reservations, because of her love.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
To continue, I wonder what Finrod is asking her. He should understand that Galadriel has found her soul match and so, what’s the conversation supposed to be about? I don’t suggest it shouldn’t happen, I just wonder about the perspective.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
My conclusion is that Finrod's concern shouldn't be why his sister is marrying Celeborn, but how she will manage her life from now on, living with a Sinda in the time of the Ban. And she could still answer in such a way that she gives her reason for marrying, but I have to say, if we have to give her lines that explain why she's marrying Celeborn, we have done something wrong, and their story arch up until now is missing something.
 
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MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Yeah, it's a bit tricky. We want them to love one another, of course, and for that to be obvious. I think what we want to happen here is for Galadriel to vocalize why Celeborn is such a great guy, and for her love for him to be clear in how she talks about him.

I agree we don't need an Aunt March/Meg scene from Little Women, where a concerned relative tries to talk a young woman out of marrying a man who is beneath her...with the result being her vigorously defending his worth.

I am not sure that I want Finrod to open with, 'So, you and Celeborn, huh?' But I see your point of having him assume and accept the obvious. So that the conversation quickly moves past *why* they are marrying.

So what does Galadriel see as her future? Does she still dream of a realm of her own? If so. . .where and how?
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I'm not convinced that she has to have a clear idea. But she could see herself and Celeborn setting up some kind of Doriath somewhere, and she'd try to be a Melian and Celeborn could be a (better) version of Thingol. She wouldn't have to have given up her ambitions.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
To further elaborate here -

Episode 9:
Of the viewpoints/stories of Sauron/Edhellos/Angrod, Angrod's viewpoint is the most interesting and immediately relevant in the context of Season 4's themes. Therefore, I would say there is reason to make Angrod the protagonist of this episode.​
In the choice between saving Orodreth or Aegnor, we would get more payoff for making it Aegnor, because he is going to be very pro-war after this, and having him feel that he owes it to Edhellos to be vigilant. This gives him motivation to turn down Andreth despite their mutual attraction to one another.​
Sauron need not be name-dropped in this episode. What Angrod needs to know is that Edhellos suffered torment in Angband, and that her will has been broken, and that she is now a kinslayer. The details of how Sauron assumed Angrod's appearance to mess with Edhellos may not be something that Angrod ever learns.​
Episode 10:
The resistance to the Ban is an interesting innovation - there are reasons the Noldor don't want to follow it, and ways that they naturally lapse into Quenya. Do we foresee an eventual resolution to this? How is the Ban going to play out in history? And is there any crisis - beyond what happens with Oropher and the dwarves of Moria in the Frame?​
Thranduil will be born after the Fëanoreans sack Doriath. Possibly during the Second Age. Also, he apparently wasn't around when Oropher was constructing the gates of the woodland realm with dwarvish aid, and thus has no personal knowledge of this dispute. Oropher was present for the Second Kinslaying and is strongly anti-Noldor/anti-Quenya.​
And on the important topic of elven pajamas, Trish weighed in to suggest that Glorfindel goes commando :p
Episode 11:
Thingol comes across as very petty. While we do need to set up the Thingol who will be the worst dad ever and a racist jerk in the Beren and Lúthien story, we want to be careful how we handle this. Finrod's request is (mostly) reasonable, so Thingol's reaction should emphasize his hurt more than his anger. In other words...it's okay for Thingol to come across negatively in this episode, but we want to handle his character with nuance and subtlety. (The way we give Norn 'justifications' in Episode 12.)​
Galadriel has one scene with Finrod early in the episode. We need to add a second interaction in which Finrod asks about the Celeborn situation, in a concerned big brother this-isn't-you way. Galadriel defends her relationship with Celeborn and informs the audience why marrying Celeborn is what she wants out of life. We need to see that Galadriel isn't hurt-and-needing-Celeborn-to-help-her-heal; she's choosing Celeborn for her future vision, as well. At the end of the conversation, Finrod takes the ring he's been wearing on a chain around his neck out and gives it to Galadriel (thus conferring his blessing on their relationship), suggesting that she will have need of it, and he no longer does, as he will never give it to Amarië.​
So...why is Galadriel marrying Celeborn? Let's come up with a compelling answer to that question!​
About the Ban and Quenya: Perhaps the language is allowed to stay, but only in certain areas? I took some classes on African history during the colonization period, and some psychological problems cropped up due to having to suppress their culture. I'm not quite sure how far we can go with the suppression of culture without making the Sindar look bad.
 
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