Session 5-01: Pre-production

Octoburn

Active Member
I thought the Green Elves fled, not attacked.
I thought Finrod had to convince them not to attack the men, as he lead the through Ossiriand.

Now the Green-elves of Ossiriand were troubled by the coming of Men, and when they heard that a lord of the Eldar from over the Sea was among them they sent messengers to Felagund. 'Lord,' they said, 'if you have power over these newcomers, bid them return by the ways that they came, or else to go forward. For we desire no strangers in this land to break the peace in which we live. And these folk are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts; therefore we are their unfriends, and if they will not depart we shall afflict them in all ways that we can.'
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Ok. I’m still not convinced that the Men came through Dwarven territory. And if they did, the Dwarves probably avoided them. To me, the story indicates that the Men hadn’t encountered anyone before Finrod made contact.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Ok. I’m still not convinced that the Men came through Dwarven territory. And if they did, the Dwarves probably avoided them. To me, the story indicates that the Men hadn’t encountered anyone before Finrod made contact.
I’m not sure of that, isn’t it mentioned somewhere that the Common Tongue of Men has some Elven words and Khuzdul?
 

Octoburn

Active Member
I’m not sure of that, isn’t it mentioned somewhere that the Common Tongue of Men has some Elven words and Khuzdul?
It does say that they encountered Dark Elves in the East, and their language's similarity to other Elven languages enables Finrod to decipher the Men's language a bit. Doesn't say anything about dwarves though.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
It does say that they encountered Dark Elves in the East, and their language's similarity to other Elven languages enables Finrod to decipher the Men's language a bit. Doesn't say anything about dwarves though.
The Tolkien Gateway article on the Edain says that they learned a bit of Khuzdul.

However, I’m not sure how much we should stray by telling of events outside of Beleriand. The Hosts seemed reluctant last season.
 
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amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
I think the differences between Men and Dwarves are small enough, compared to the differences between Men and Elves, that even if they knew Dwarves, Men would still be gobsmacked by Elves. Especially Calaquendi.
 

Octoburn

Active Member
The Tolkien Gateway article on the Edain says that they learned a bit of Khuzdul.
Ah, this is a reference to a HoME book. I was going off the account in the Silmarillion.

However, I’m not sure how much we should stray from telling of events outside of Beleriand. The Hosts seemed reluctant last season.
Yeah, I'm not too keen on it myself. I do recall the scene last season of Melkor among men, before they arrive in Beleriand.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I take the initial movements of the three houses of the Edain to look something like this:

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I thought the Green Elves fled, not attacked.
According to the published Silmarillion, the meetings of the Edain and Green-elves varies slightly by house.

The Green-elves complain to Finrod that the Men of the House of Beor are "'hewers of trees and hunters of beasts; therefore we are their unfriends, and if they will not depart we shall afflict them in all ways that we can.'" There is no evidence one way or another as to whether the House of Beor met the Green-elves, but the Green-elves clearly observed their hewing and hunting. I do not believe the Green-elves attacked these Men, because they say that they will "afflict" them, not "continue afflicting" them.

The Haladin, "meeting the unfriendship of the Green-elves they turned north and dwelt in Thargelion." This suggests there was some interaction between these Men and the Green-elves. Whether it was a physical attack or not depends on how we want to interpret "unfriendship," but I do not think we should have the Green-elves and Men actually kill one another.

Marach and his people (the House of Hador) "were a tall and warlike folk, marching in ordered companies, and the Elves of Ossiriand hid themselves and did not waylay them," so I do not believe they had any interactions with the Green-elves at all.

As for meeting the Dwarves, the published Silmarillion does not indicate whether this happened or not. Based on my map above, they do go near Nogrod and Belegost, and it is explicitly mentioned that people of Marach "came down the Dwarf-road." Whether and how we want Men and the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost to meet and whether that meeting comes before or after Men cross into Beleriand seems to be up to us.

The Tolkien Gateway article on the Edain says that they learned a bit of Khuzdul.

However, I’m not sure how much we should stray from telling of events outside of Beleriand. The Hosts seemed reluctant last season.
The meeting with Dwarves in northern Rhun mentioned here is, I believe, derived from the following quote in The War of the Jewels: "In ancient days the Naugrim dwelt in many mountains of Middle-earth, and there they met mortal Men (they say) long ere the Eldar knew them; whence it comes that of the tongues of the Easterlings many show kinship with Dwarf-speech rather than with the speeches of the Elves." I may be missing it, but I saw no mention of northern Rhun or the Edain specifically in the chapter cited in Tolkien Gateway. It is certainly possible that the Edain met Dwarves, but I think it is also possible that the Edain did not meet Dwarves outside of Beleriand and only the Easterlings, who moved west later, met the Dwarves and had their language influenced.

Based on the published Silmarillion, the only group the Edain definitely met before they came into Beleriand was "the Dark Elves east of the mountains."
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I take the initial movements of the three houses of the Edain to look something like this:

View attachment 2712

According to the published Silmarillion, the meetings of the Edain and Green-elves varies slightly by house.

The Green-elves complain to Finrod that the Men of the House of Beor are "'hewers of trees and hunters of beasts; therefore we are their unfriends, and if they will not depart we shall afflict them in all ways that we can.'" There is no evidence one way or another as to whether the House of Beor met the Green-elves, but the Green-elves clearly observed their hewing and hunting. I do not believe the Green-elves attacked these Men, because they say that they will "afflict" them, not "continue afflicting" them.

The Haladin, "meeting the unfriendship of the Green-elves they turned north and dwelt in Thargelion." This suggests there was some interaction between these Men and the Green-elves. Whether it was a physical attack or not depends on how we want to interpret "unfriendship," but I do not think we should have the Green-elves and Men actually kill one another.

Marach and his people (the House of Hador) "were a tall and warlike folk, marching in ordered companies, and the Elves of Ossiriand hid themselves and did not waylay them," so I do not believe they had any interactions with the Green-elves at all.

As for meeting the Dwarves, the published Silmarillion does not indicate whether this happened or not. Based on my map above, they do go near Nogrod and Belegost, and it is explicitly mentioned that people of Marach "came down the Dwarf-road." Whether and how we want Men and the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost to meet and whether that meeting comes before or after Men cross into Beleriand seems to be up to us.


The meeting with Dwarves in northern Rhun mentioned here is, I believe, derived from the following quote in The War of the Jewels: "In ancient days the Naugrim dwelt in many mountains of Middle-earth, and there they met mortal Men (they say) long ere the Eldar knew them; whence it comes that of the tongues of the Easterlings many show kinship with Dwarf-speech rather than with the speeches of the Elves." I may be missing it, but I saw no mention of northern Rhun or the Edain specifically in the chapter cited in Tolkien Gateway. It is certainly possible that the Edain met Dwarves, but I think it is also possible that the Edain did not meet Dwarves outside of Beleriand and only the Easterlings, who moved west later, met the Dwarves and had their language influenced.

Based on the published Silmarillion, the only group the Edain definitely met before they came into Beleriand was "the Dark Elves east of the mountains."
Thanks for going through this so thoroughly!

Looking at the map, I would assume that the House of Bëor crossed the mountains without encountering any Dwarves. The other Houses, on the other hand, could very well have come across the Dwarves of Nogrod or Belegost, the people of Hador in particular. It is also the people of Hador who supposedly met Dwarves by Sea of Rhûn. They arrive in Beleriand three years after the people of Bëor. (The Haladin arrive just a year before, two years after the people of Bëor).
 

Kathrin

Active Member
Wow Rhiannon that's really thorough, thanks! That's probably a good guide for as soon as Men cross/walk around the ered luin. Now maybe I've missed something on why this isn't plausible (please correct me), but I was just looking at the map of Beleriand & eriador. If the men awaken in Hildorien (somewhere southeast of Mordor-to-be, right?), many of them travel up as far north as the sea of Rhûn, and then spread out from there. Maybe a couple of them team up and follow the same path, but I can't imagine they all do. The ones that wanna head west might as well go either by misty mountain passes or by what would later become the gap of Rohan. (Probably there's also always groups that settle somewhere along the way). They don't know the territory, so I don't think it makes sense to say they would just all avoid the mountains. If some of them choose misty mountain passes, that would already put them into or close to several Longbeard territories.

The ones that go Gap of Rohan-Enedwaith (there are distantly related Haladin there later) and then reach Ossiriand from the South might well not encounter any dwarves. (except if at the sea of Rhûn there were dwarves (there are 4 different dwarf clans somewhere in Rhûn. But there, the dwarves might've also kept a low profile, to first observe these strange new people.)

But the ones that travel more north and then west, they might go through Rhovanion, across the mountains, through Eriador and would end up straight at Nogrod/Belegost and might walk into Ossiriand from the North right? They might encounter any of the 3 more western dwarf clans. They question is more, which dwarf clans would wanna meet them. I'm sure they would notice.. Also the people who settle along the way might have closer relationships with the local dwarf clans than the couple of big, famous houses that head straight towards the elves.

I understand that the story happens mostly there, with the big, famous Houses of Men. But there are so many smaller peoples of men that just chill somewhere in the white spots of the map, and if the story ever passes through there, it might be nice to have at least an inkling of who they are. In the lord of the rings, the story is of course a lot more concentrated, so if we have Dunlendings, Druedain, beornings or hobbits, we can just say "oh well they originated somewhere in a valley over there, we don't know exactly anymore" and that's a 100% fine. But in the Silmarillion the chance of actually seeing those things happen somewhere at the edges of the story is higher. So maybe the big Houses of Men encounter Dwarves, maybe they don't, that's up to how we wanna tell the story (I'd vote that at least one of the bigger houses does) But I'm quite confident that some of the smaller tribes of Men do.

Sorry for the rant. I know our story is very elf-human centered, which makes sense, because it is the Silmarillion. It's just interesting to me.

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Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
There should be a difference among the Houses of Men as to how much they interact with dwarves, I think. Let’s say the people of Hador have quite a lot of positive contact. The Haladin and the House of Bëor could have less of that (if not hostile, then maybe the Dwarves avoid them for some reason). The Haladin meet the Druedain, who join them in the journey to Beleriand.

By the way, I’m slightly bothered by the fact that we’ve named a Dwarf Norn. It’s what the Men call Finrod. Well maybe it’s not a big problem.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
There should be a difference among the Houses of Men as to how much they interact with dwarves, I think. Let’s say the people of Hador have quite a lot of positive contact. The Haladin and the House of Bëor could have less of that (if not hostile, then maybe the Dwarves avoid them for some reason). The Haladin meet the Druedain, who join them in the journey to Beleriand.

By the way, I’m slightly bothered by the fact that we’ve named a Dwarf Norn. It’s what the Men call Finrod. Well maybe it’s not a big problem.
I thought the Men called Finrod "Nom", the Wise.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
What’s being compared?
Oh, just that the PubSil as written could have happened exactly as written even if Men had previously met Dwarves on the way. There would be no dulling of their wonder at discovering these alien beings due to already having encountered other alien beings - Dwarves would have been samey enough that the Elves would still provoke that reaction.
 

Brian Dimmick

Active Member
I agree that whether we show Men and Dwarves meeting is up to us. Since the PubSil is told from the Elvish perspective, and interactions or even trade between Men and Dwarves probably wouldn’t be of great interest to the elves unless it touched them, it makes sense that it would not be recorded. But we could fill it in.

Whether or not Men and Dwarves meet before Men enter Beleriand, I think they would be likely to meet afterward. The Edain move around quite a bit, and the Dwarves engage in trade, so they would be likely to encounter one another at some point over 150 years. Perhaps they even meet in one of the Elven courts.

If Dwarves and Men met in the east around the Sea of Rhun, that probably happens a couple of generations before the Edain enter Beleriand, so that even the first of the Edain to enter would know of the Dwarves only as stories. Some of those stories might influence how Men perceive Dwarves when they do meet in Beleriand.

What story would we want to tell about Men and Dwarves? To me that drives whether we show them meeting and in what circumstances. I think the Edain would be curious about anything in Beleriand that is not an Orc, but wouldn’t go out of their way to seek the Dwarves out. Dwarves would be keen to evaluate Men as potential trading partners, but probably wouldn’t see them as very promising on that front when they first arrive in Beleriand as nomads. I can see interactions happening, and perhaps some trade and even disagreement, but we should think about what story we can tell that will bear fruit down the road.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I agree that whether we show Men and Dwarves meeting is up to us. Since the PubSil is told from the Elvish perspective, and interactions or even trade between Men and Dwarves probably wouldn’t be of great interest to the elves unless it touched them, it makes sense that it would not be recorded. But we could fill it in.

Whether or not Men and Dwarves meet before Men enter Beleriand, I think they would be likely to meet afterward. The Edain move around quite a bit, and the Dwarves engage in trade, so they would be likely to encounter one another at some point over 150 years. Perhaps they even meet in one of the Elven courts.

If Dwarves and Men met in the east around the Sea of Rhun, that probably happens a couple of generations before the Edain enter Beleriand, so that even the first of the Edain to enter would know of the Dwarves only as stories. Some of those stories might influence how Men perceive Dwarves when they do meet in Beleriand.

What story would we want to tell about Men and Dwarves? To me that drives whether we show them meeting and in what circumstances. I think the Edain would be curious about anything in Beleriand that is not an Orc, but wouldn’t go out of their way to seek the Dwarves out. Dwarves would be keen to evaluate Men as potential trading partners, but probably wouldn’t see them as very promising on that front when they first arrive in Beleriand as nomads. I can see interactions happening, and perhaps some trade and even disagreement, but we should think about what story we can tell that will bear fruit down the road.
Well, suffice it to say that Men don’t say very much of their exploits outside of Beleriand. How far would Finrod need to dig into a Man’s mind, and with Men arriving in Beleriand at the end of Season 4, there’s a very slim window to talk about it.
 

Octoburn

Active Member
Oh, just that the PubSil as written could have happened exactly as written even if Men had previously met Dwarves on the way. There would be no dulling of their wonder at discovering these alien beings due to already having encountered other alien beings - Dwarves would have been samey enough that the Elves would still provoke that reaction.
Personally, I feel that having the dwarves discover* men followed immediately (like, the next episode at the latest) by Finrod discovering them is a bit redundant. The viewer already knows they exist, as they were briefly shown the last 2 years, so anything more than one reveal will grow repetitive, barring we actually have a reason (some type of set-up, foreshadowing, etc. Not just Oh! Dwarves have now met men!) for the men meeting dwarves.

I do have a question that occurred to me yesterday. I had it while thinking of Tuor's time in Gondolin. (Absentmindedly, I asked "how does Turgon react to Tuor, when he's never seen men before; I then remembered Hurin and Huor's time in Gondolin and realized he has) but, what is Turgons relationship with men, prior to Tuor? We know he hosts Hurin and Huor for a year or so (or is it more?) But outside of that, his kingdom has literally no interaction with men. Does he even know about them before the Bragollach? Would Thorondor have brought him news of men? Do Turgon and Fingolfin/Fingon later, pass notes by way of the Eagles? Would the nature and ways of men seem as foreign to Turgon when Tuor arrives, as they seem to Finrod when he first meets them?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Personally, I feel that having the dwarves discover* men followed immediately (like, the next episode at the latest) by Finrod discovering them is a bit redundant. The viewer already knows they exist, as they were briefly shown the last 2 years, so anything more than one reveal will grow repetitive, barring we actually have a reason (some type of set-up, foreshadowing, etc. Not just Oh! Dwarves have now met men!) for the men meeting dwarves.

I do have a question that occurred to me yesterday. I had it while thinking of Tuor's time in Gondolin. (Absentmindedly, I asked "how does Turgon react to Tuor, when he's never seen men before; I then remembered Hurin and Huor's time in Gondolin and realized he has) but, what is Turgons relationship with men, prior to Tuor? We know he hosts Hurin and Huor for a year or so (or is it more?) But outside of that, his kingdom has literally no interaction with men. Does he even know about them before the Bragollach? Would Thorondor have brought him news of men? Do Turgon and Fingolfin/Fingon later, pass notes by way of the Eagles? Would the nature and ways of men seem as foreign to Turgon when Tuor arrives, as they seem to Finrod when he first meets them?
Thorondor would likely bring news of what goes on in Beleriand, but not via notes from Fingolfin and Fingon; they’re not like the ravens from A Song of Ice and Fire. Perhaps Turgon knows more about Men considering he has a more open mind than Thingol; unlike Thingol he readily accepts Turgon as his son-in-law with little fuss.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Personally, I feel that having the dwarves discover* men followed immediately (like, the next episode at the latest) by Finrod discovering them is a bit redundant. The viewer already knows they exist, as they were briefly shown the last 2 years, so anything more than one reveal will grow repetitive, barring we actually have a reason (some type of set-up, foreshadowing, etc. Not just Oh! Dwarves have now met men!) for the men meeting dwarves.

I do have a question that occurred to me yesterday. I had it while thinking of Tuor's time in Gondolin. (Absentmindedly, I asked "how does Turgon react to Tuor, when he's never seen men before; I then remembered Hurin and Huor's time in Gondolin and realized he has) but, what is Turgons relationship with men, prior to Tuor? We know he hosts Hurin and Huor for a year or so (or is it more?) But outside of that, his kingdom has literally no interaction with men. Does he even know about them before the Bragollach? Would Thorondor have brought him news of men? Do Turgon and Fingolfin/Fingon later, pass notes by way of the Eagles? Would the nature and ways of men seem as foreign to Turgon when Tuor arrives, as they seem to Finrod when he first meets them?
Before Tuor arrives in Gondolin, Turgon also interacts with Men when he leaves Gondolin for the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. His high opinion of Tuor probably stems in large part from Huor’s sacrifice to save the Gondolindrim alongside Hurin. Plus, there’s the prophecy Huor says to Turgon: “From you and from me a new star shall arise.”
 
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