Session 5-04: The Season 5 Frame

[Haakon]

Personally, I don’t think Gandalf should be greeted similarly to how Beor’s people react to Finrod. If anything, a mirroring opposite. Again, I think that too close correspondents between frame and main story risks being a little clumsy, to be honest, and also could be confusing.

 

[Rhiannon]

Personally, I don’t think Gandalf should be greeted similarly to how Beor’s people react to Finrod. If anything, a mirroring opposite. Again, I think that too close correspondents between frame and main story risks being a little clumsy, to be honest, and also could be confusing.

Do you mean that Gandalf is greeted with dislike and distrust? That could work also.

Maybe we could even play with the viewers’ expectations. The first frame scene would show Gandalf arriving as a stranger among a tribe of Haradrim. The main story would show Finrod arriving as a stranger at the camp of the House of Bëor and gaining their friendship. Then, the closing frame scene would show the Haradrim who Gandalf met disliking him.

 

[Haakon]

Do you mean that Gandalf is greeted with dislike and distrust? That could work also.

Maybe we could even play with the viewers’ expectations. The first frame scene would show Gandalf arriving as a stranger among a tribe of Haradrim. The main story would show Finrod arriving as a stranger at the camp of the House of Bëor and gaining their friendship. Then, the closing frame scene would show the Haradrim who Gandalf met disliking him.

We could do it in a couple of ways but yes, I think we should give Gandalf a hard time from the start. Not extreme aggression, or hate, but definitely distrust.

 

[Brian Dimmick]

We could do it in a couple of ways but yes, I think we should give Gandalf a hard time from the start. Not extreme aggression, or hate, but definitely distrust.

We could show contrast between the Haradrim and Beor's people by how they first react to meeting a stranger. Beor's people are open to finding new people in Beleriand (they have come to Beleriand seeking somethign new, even if they may not be able or willing to articulate it clearly). Finrod is able to capitalize on that, and is well equipped to use his facility with language and his skills to win their trust. The Haradrim, on the other hand, have been conditioned by their society and the residual effects of Sauron's rule to be mistrustful and suspicious of outsiders, and particularly northerners. They are not openly hostile--they don't threaten his physical safety or imprison him. But they are not overly welcoming or forthcoming with information either. Gandalf can win at least some fo them over by his general friendliness and by showing that he is not coming to make demands on them, though that building of trust may take an episode or two. Viewers may sense a loss of innocence in comparing the Edain with the Haradrim.

 

[Brian Dimmick]

The last two episodes we know will be about the Dagor Bragollach, so the frame story for those should be the point where all of Gandalf's efforts in Harad fall apart.

I was wondering if, because the Dagor Bragollach is such amajor event and fills episodes 12 and 13 (assuming that continues to be the plan) if we want to try to mostly wrap up the frame by episode 11. I'm not sure what we could show as a climax to the frame that could go in those two episodes without seeming insignificant by comparison. (Unless we want to have some kind off military confrontation as the climax of our frame, but I don't think I'm in favor of that). We could add a little extra frame into episode 11--not showing the final resolution and defeat/enslavement of Gandalf's tribe, but showing things headed in a bad direction. This could be a nice ominous lead-in to the Dagor Bragollach. Then we could have a brief closing scene in episode 13. Just a thought.

For Gandalf's trip to Gondor, I thought I remembered from the episode that we were thinking of having him go to Gondor and then return to Harad. If we did that, it would put the Gondor visit closer to the middle of the season. Perhaps, in connection with this, we could have a connection with the Amlach story. The tribal leaders fo the Haradrim could be summoned to a council where they will discuss uniting (i.e.,. submitting to Sauron's rule). Before this council, there seems to be support for resisting this and going on as before, but things turn at the council. I don't think we would need to show such a council on screen (it would be repetitive of the main plot, and Gandalf wouldn't be invited/welcome anyway) but it could happen while Gandalf is in Minas Tirith. When he comes back he finds that the council has gone badly for him (probably through something he will recognize as trickery of Sauron). He spends a couple of episodes trying to undoe damage, but ultimately fails. I think it could be a nice counterpoint to the Amlach plot, showing what could have happened there too.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Question: where did the Harad idea come from? Because I have a relatively long memory for what’s discussed in threads and Harad never came up until last session.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Question: where did the Harad idea come from? Because I have a relatively long memory for what’s discussed in threads and Harad never came up until last session.

I hadn't heard about it until last session either that I remember. Why?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I hadn't heard about it until last session either that I remember. Why?

Simply wondering where it came from, since it felt out of left field. And I don’t feel very confident about writing an entirely original story with a cast that’s almost completely original.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Simply wondering where it came from, since it felt out of left field. And I don’t feel very confident about writing an entirely original story with a cast that’s almost completely original.

While the cast of our other frames have had characters that were featured (or at least mentioned) by Tolkien, we have had to largely construct those stories from scratch, as well as creating original characters. This is not much of a stretch from that.

 

[Rhiannon]

I think my largest concern with writing a story about Harad is that I don't have a clear idea of the culture or political structure of that area. Once we have figured out those, coming up with the characters and story won't be hard.

 

[Haerangil]

Maybe from the Speech of the mouth of Sauron before the Black Gate or the tale of Tal-elmar one could get some inspirations?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Looking at Appendix B in The Return of the King, it seems that they’re in Sauron’s camp by 2900 T.A.; they made an attack on Ithilien in 2885 T.A.. Gandalf could try to foster resistance.

 

[Haakon]

Looking at Appendix B in The Return of the King, it seems that they’re in Sauron’s camp by 2900 T.A.; they made an attack on Ithilien in 2885 T.A.. Gandalf could try to foster resistance.

Do you mean we should focus on the newly conquered Harondor?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Do you mean we should focus on the newly conquered Harondor?

I’m not sure. I’m reading conflicting accounts; in the Appendix Harondor was held by the Haradrim by the War of the Ring but maps say it’s deserted.

 

[Haakon]

I’m not sure. I’m reading conflicting accounts; in the Appendix Harondor was held by the Haradrim by the War of the Ring but maps say it’s deserted.

I think it’s because there are no cities or villages, just a number of mobile military camps.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I think it’s because there are no cities or villages, just a number of mobile military camps.

I just don't know; I'm not sure if Gandalf can do anything against the military if they've already picked for Sauron's team.

 

[Haakon]

I just don't know; I'm not sure if Gandalf can do anything against the military if they've already picked for Sauron's team.

What I’ve been trying to argue for is that the Haradrim have historically chosen Sauron’s side, and that they at this point have ties to Black Numenoreans, but not a fully organised alliance, and Sauron has not come forward at this point. I have written a couple of posts about it.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

What I’ve been trying to argue for is that the Haradrim have historically chosen Sauron’s side, and that they at this point have ties to Black Numenoreans, but not a fully organised alliance, and Sauron has not come forward at this point. I have written a couple of posts about it.

So would the Black Numenoreans be aware that Sauron has returned and declared for him in secret?

 

[Haakon]

So would the Black Numenoreans be aware that Sauron has returned and declared for him in secret?

What’s your opinion?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

What’s your opinion?

I’d say yes, that the Black Numenoreans have declared for Sauron and are behind the movements of whoever we put as the Heavy*. If Sauron is not directly involved with the Black Numenoreans, the entity manipulating things could be a Nazgul; if we so chose this could be the Witch-King of Angmar. If the Mouth of Sauron is the Heavy in this season, he could be sent by the Black Numenoreans to bring the Haradrim over to Sauron's side.

*TV Tropes term for the active, plot-driving villain, ie Darth Vader.