Session 5-05: The Storylines of Men, Part 1 - Haleth and ???

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I think that we can break elements of the Athrabeth into different episodes and at different times over the course of Andreth's life. As the thematic lynchpin of the season, she's going to have a lot to say at various times.
We could have the Athrabeth take up a single episode, maybe have it occur after the death of Aredhel. A fake-out breather episode.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
Found a family tree and removed some people. They are not shown, but still "exist":
Edain.jpg
I circled those that can be main characters this season. The rest could be supporting characters. The lighter areas at the bottom are people I suggest that we wait to introduce. F.eks. Baragund and Belegund aren't very important, except for being part of Barahir's band, so next season is their thing.
The rest of the Haladin could be introduced during the time Húrin and Húor stay with them in Brethil (ca 457, same year as Tol Sirion is taken by Sauron!).

In an earlier post I suggested that after Bëor dies there is some kind of unrest among men in Dorthonion because of the differences between the immortal elves and mortal men. I now thought that what if that is shown through some kind of conflict between Boromir and his cousin Bereg? Boromir supporting the elves, and Bereg against them. Then we show Adanel and her cousin Amlach arguing. Finally there is a big council when Amlach speaks very harsh things even lying about the elves. This leads Bereg to go east with a lot of men. It is revealed that it wasn't really Amlach speaking, and he goes to serve Maedhros as a way to maybe compensate for the losses.

Later Boromir witnesses the failed love between Andreth (his daughter) and Aegnor. There is some of fighting in Aglon and Hador, who has been visiting old Amlach, receives Dor-lómin from Fingolfin as a reward. Boromir asks Angrod/Aegnor if they will give his people their own lands too recognising that it's better for his people to live more separated from the elves. No more failed love, no more longing for immortality. He receives Ladros.

We have Haleth's story before the Aglon fighting. And Andreth through all of the Boromir, Aglon and the rest of the season. Spreading out the Athrabeth. Bregor (her brother) can be a supporting character too. He is later renowned for his bow, which became an heirloom of the House of Bëor.

We could also do something with Barahir before he saves Finrod. Bregolas (his brother) could be a supporting character, he dies in the Bragollach. Bregolas is also the father of Baragund and Belegund who are members of Barahir's band of outlaws. Beren and Emeldir (Barahir's son and wife) could also be characters here. Emeldir will lead the refugees away to Brethil during the Bragollach.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So Boromir receives Ladros after Hador receives Dor-Lomin? I thought Boromir was Lord of Ladros by the Athrabeth.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
So Boromir receives Ladros after Hador receives Dor-Lomin?
First, we need to figure out what the storylines of these characters are. Then, we can put them together on the timeline.

Obviously, we all have an eye to how these events can fit together, and what should come earlier or later....but the idea is to discuss them as stories first, and finalize logistics later.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
We could have Boromir and Bereg be present when Bëor dies. After his funeral Bereg could blame the elves for not saving him. His anti-elvish views could start from just really loving his grandpa. He will be influenced by the bad guys (Sauron/Thuringwethil), who takes advantage of his situation, and eventually he turns more extreme anti-elves.

Bereg could leave Dorthonion and end up in Estolad trying to influence the (to be-)people of Hador. Amlach is influenced by Bereg and his relationship with Adanel starts to grow worse. Some time before the Council Amlach is replaced with Fake Amlach. Maybe Real Amlach is taken by Sauron who has taken an elvish shape so Bereg believes that the elves even are dangerous? At the council Fake Amlach lies to men saying that elves are greedy and trying to establish dominion over the world by conquering the orcs' lands. Fake Amlach sends Bereg away with a lot of men. After he's gone real Amlach comes back, maybe he has managed to escape in some way? It's revealed that the bad guys really exists and that everything was a lie. Amlach goes to serve Maedhros.

Young Andreth could also be in Estolad. She is trained by Adanel to become a wise-woman.

Boromir witnesses Andreth's failed love to Aegnor. He starts wondering if elves and men really should live together. He has lost his cousin (Bereg) because he loved their mortal grandfather too much, and now his daughter is super sad because she can't marry an elf. After fighting at Aglon he asks Angrod for a fief of their own so this doesn't happen again.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
We could have Boromir and Bereg be present when Bëor dies. After his funeral Bereg could blame the elves for not saving him. His anti-elvish views could start from just really loving his grandpa. He will be influenced by the bad guys (Sauron/Thuringwethil), who takes advantage of his situation, and eventually he turns more extreme anti-elves.

Bereg could leave Dorthonion and end up in Estolad trying to influence the (to be-)people of Hador. Amlach is influenced by Bereg and his relationship with Adanel starts to grow worse. Some time before the Council Amlach is replaced with Fake Amlach. Maybe Real Amlach is taken by Sauron who has taken an elvish shape so Bereg believes that the elves even are dangerous? At the council Fake Amlach lies to men saying that elves are greedy and trying to establish dominion over the world by conquering the orcs' lands. Fake Amlach sends Bereg away with a lot of men. After he's gone real Amlach comes back, maybe he has managed to escape in some way? It's revealed that the bad guys really exists and that everything was a lie. Amlach goes to serve Maedhros.

Young Andreth could also be in Estolad. She is trained by Adanel to become a wise-woman.

Boromir witnesses Andreth's failed love to Aegnor. He starts wondering if elves and men really should live together. He has lost his cousin (Bereg) because he loved their mortal grandfather too much, and now his daughter is super sad because she can't marry an elf. After fighting at Aglon he asks Angrod for a fief of their own so this doesn't happen again.
So how do we want Fake Amlach incapacitated? And if Sauron is Fake Amlach, how will he be involved?
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
So how do we want Fake Amlach incapacitated? And if Sauron is Fake Amlach, how will he be involved?
Hmm I don't really understand what you mean.:oops:
Do you mean like how Fake Amlach is stopped? Maybe he isn't stopped, maybe he just disappears before Real Amlach comes back? Maybe Real Amlach comes back and Fake Amlach is just about to get caught?
It could be a little bit like how Thuringwethil disappears when she's on Cirdan's ship, or Sauron at the Mereth Aderthad. Sauron is about to get caught and turns into a bat and flies away.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Hmm I don't really understand what you mean.:oops:
Do you mean like how Fake Amlach is stopped? Maybe he isn't stopped, maybe he just disappears before Real Amlach comes back? Maybe Real Amlach comes back and Fake Amlach is just about to get caught?
It could be a little bit like how Thuringwethil disappears when she's on Cirdan's ship, or Sauron at the Mereth Aderthad. Sauron is about to get caught and turns into a bat and flies away.
Whoops, it seems I misspoke. What I’m asking is how we want Amlach to be incapacitated long enough for impersonation.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
If we're going to have Haleth kill Tevildo, I would prefer that Tevildo appear at least once more this season before the episode in which he dies. While Tevildo has been around for several seasons now, I think it would still be good to remind the audience about him and establish him as a villain this season. Here are a few places I've thought of that he could appear:
  • In Angband as part of the Rhogrin and Annael escape storyline.
  • In Angband as part of the Angband politics storyline
  • Aredhel encounters him north of Brethil when she leaves Gondolin
  • Attacking some Men in southern Dorthonion
We can also at various points remind viewers that Tevildo is around without actually showing him. For example, Beleg could be complaining to Thingol about the giant cats outside the Girdle before Finrod shows up to tell Thingol about the arrival of Men.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
If we're going to have Haleth kill Tevildo, I would prefer that Tevildo appear at least once more this season before the episode in which he dies. While Tevildo has been around for several seasons now, I think it would still be good to remind the audience about him and establish him as a villain this season. Here are a few places I've thought of that he could appear:
  • In Angband as part of the Rhogrin and Annael escape storyline.
  • In Angband as part of the Angband politics storyline
  • Aredhel encounters him north of Brethil when she leaves Gondolin
  • Attacking some Men in southern Dorthonion
We can also at various points remind viewers that Tevildo is around without actually showing him. For example, Beleg could be complaining to Thingol about the giant cats outside the Girdle before Finrod shows up to tell Thingol about the arrival of Men.
Maybe Sauron sends him to harass anyone on the borders of Doriath?

Speaking of which, we should hammer down what the villains are doing.
  • Sauron is still involved in the Catch-and-Release storyline with aid from Thuringwethil, and we’ve discussed having Thuringwethil play a large role in the implementation of Sauron’s hypnotism.
  • Speaking of Sauron’s entourage, what should Draugluin be doing? He seems to be out of the picture until Sauron takes Tol Sirion next season (unless that’s his time to shine).
  • I do not think Glaurung should be involved in this as the catch-and-release program as that appears to be Sauron’s brainchild and Glaurung seems to work with larger plots like the Turin plot. His hypnotism seems to work along different lines than Sauron; his victims remember everything they did while under hypnosis when it wears off while Sauron’s do not.
  • Meanwhile, either Sauron, Glaurung, and Gothmog could be the masterminds behind the battle plan for the Dagor Bragollach. We know that Glaurung attacks down and burns Maglor’s Gap, but what about the rest?
 
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Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
We could have Boromir and Bereg be present when Bëor dies. After his funeral Bereg could blame the elves for not saving him. His anti-elvish views could start from just really loving his grandpa. He will be influenced by the bad guys (Sauron/Thuringwethil), who takes advantage of his situation, and eventually he turns more extreme anti-elves.

Bereg could leave Dorthonion and end up in Estolad trying to influence the (to be-)people of Hador. Amlach is influenced by Bereg and his relationship with Adanel starts to grow worse. Some time before the Council Amlach is replaced with Fake Amlach. Maybe Real Amlach is taken by Sauron who has taken an elvish shape so Bereg believes that the elves even are dangerous? At the council Fake Amlach lies to men saying that elves are greedy and trying to establish dominion over the world by conquering the orcs' lands. Fake Amlach sends Bereg away with a lot of men. After he's gone real Amlach comes back, maybe he has managed to escape in some way? It's revealed that the bad guys really exists and that everything was a lie. Amlach goes to serve Maedhros.

Young Andreth could also be in Estolad. She is trained by Adanel to become a wise-woman.

Boromir witnesses Andreth's failed love to Aegnor. He starts wondering if elves and men really should live together. He has lost his cousin (Bereg) because he loved their mortal grandfather too much, and now his daughter is super sad because she can't marry an elf. After fighting at Aglon he asks Angrod for a fief of their own so this doesn't happen again.
I'm not really in favor of Boromir basing the decision to move his people to Ladros on his daughter's failed relationship with Aegnor. In fact, I'm not really in favor of Boromir knowing about their relationship at all. Andreth and Aegnor don't have to be meeting in secret; they can be open about their friendship, but the fact that they were considering marriage shouldn't be the gossip of Beleriand.

I think the relocation of the House of Beor to Ladros is something that should happen but not necessarily be shown on screen. Either it should be mentioned at the end of an episode as something the House of Beor is going to do, or it should have already happened at the beginning of an episode. In the former case, it could be connected to Hador receiving Dor-lomin as a fiefdom, either as a reward for Boromir or as part of a general trend of Elves noticing that Men do better when they have their own lands. In the latter case, it could simply be something that has happened between the episodes focused on Andreth and the episodes focused on Barahir.

We could also make the move to Ladros one of the consequences of the Athrabeth. Per the timeline in the books, Boron (Boromir's father) dies in winter of 408 ("soon after Yule"), the Athrabeth takes place "on a time of spring" in 409, and Ladros is given to Boromir in 410. Finrod could be up in Dorthonion to visit his brothers and recognize Boromir as lord of the House of Beor. In that episode, Finrod could observe some of the difficulties of Elves and Men living together, the most significant of which would be revealed in his conversation with Andreth (Men envy Elvish immortality and believe they should have been immortal, Men feel that Elves are looking down upon them because they are mortal, love between a Man and an Elf is bound to end in tragedy). After the Athrabeth, Finrod could talk to Angrod and Aegnor and recommend that they give the House of Beor some land where they can be apart from Elves.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I will say that my father has been aware of every boyfriend his adult daughters have had. Not every guy they went on a date or 2 with, but any guy who was around long enough to be a boyfriend did get introduced to the parents as such, and invited over for holidays or family barbecue or whatnot. I find it mind-boggling that Andreth's father would be unaware of his daughter's relationship and broken heart. I mean, there is comedic value to the oblivious, out of touch father, but that is quite honestly very over done. (Peter Pan's Mr. Darling: A little less noise, a little less noise). I agree that not every single person in their clan should know about this, but obviously Aegnor's brother Finrod does, and I would have to imagine that Andreth's family knows too.

That needn't necessarily be the motivation for the removal to Ladros, but I am not at all in favor of 'he doesn't know' being the reason for why not.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I will say that my father has been aware of every boyfriend his adult daughters have had. Not every guy they went on a date or 2 with, but any guy who was around long enough to be a boyfriend did get introduced to the parents as such, and invited over for holidays or family barbecue or whatnot. I find it mind-boggling that Andreth's father would be unaware of his daughter's relationship and broken heart. I mean, there is comedic value to the oblivious, out of touch father, but that is quite honestly very over done. (Peter Pan's Mr. Darling: A little less noise, a little less noise). I agree that not every single person in their clan should know about this, but obviously Aegnor's brother Finrod does, and I would have to imagine that Andreth's family knows too.

That needn't necessarily be the motivation for the removal to Ladros, but I am not at all in favor of 'he doesn't know' being the reason for why not.
Well, if it is the motivation, why Ladros? It’s still practically next door to Aegnor, wouldn’t Boromir want to move Andreth even farther away?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Maybe Sauron sends him to harass anyone on the borders of Doriath?

Speaking of which, we should hammer down what the villains are doing.
We should, and we will, but not in Session 5 - that will focus on the storylines of Men in Season 5.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
I'm not really in favor of Boromir basing the decision to move his people to Ladros on his daughter's failed relationship with Aegnor. In fact, I'm not really in favor of Boromir knowing about their relationship at all. Andreth and Aegnor don't have to be meeting in secret; they can be open about their friendship, but the fact that they were considering marriage shouldn't be the gossip of Beleriand.
All of Beleriand doesn't need to know, but I think it would be weird if Boromir didn't know. And I didn't suggest that Boromir would base that decision only on her daughter's failed relationship, but rather on the broader problems among his people, such as envying the elves for their immortality. His daughter's broken heart could come in addition to that.
That story of Bereg I suggested, about Bereg being angry at the elves for not saving his grandpa (Bëor) and being "tricked" into leaving Beleriand by the bad guys lies, could make this problem more personal for Boromir. (And it could also give Bereg a backstory, not just him saying some bad things and leave, and it could be a way to bind the different generations together).

Finrod could be up in Dorthonion to visit his brothers and recognize Boromir as lord of the House of Beor. In that episode, Finrod could observe some of the difficulties of Elves and Men living together, the most significant of which would be revealed in his conversation with Andreth (Men envy Elvish immortality and believe they should have been immortal, Men feel that Elves are looking down upon them because they are mortal, love between a Man and an Elf is bound to end in tragedy). After the Athrabeth, Finrod could talk to Angrod and Aegnor and recommend that they give the House of Beor some land where they can be apart from Elves.
Maybe it could be a mix of both our ideas? Maybe Boromir doesn't know about Aegnor and only sees the immortality envying, but Finrod manages to see more and understand more when speaking to Andreth? Finrod speaks to Angrod/Aegnor and Boromir and they agree to give him Ladros? I don't know just doing some brainstorming o_O
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
All of Beleriand doesn't need to know, but I think it would be weird if Boromir didn't know. And I didn't suggest that Boromir would base that decision only on her daughter's failed relationship, but rather on the broader problems among his people, such as envying the elves for their immortality. His daughter's broken heart could come in addition to that.
That story of Bereg I suggested, about Bereg being angry at the elves for not saving his grandpa (Bëor) and being "tricked" into leaving Beleriand by the bad guys lies, could make this problem more personal for Boromir. (And it could also give Bereg a backstory, not just him saying some bad things and leave, and it could be a way to bind the different generations together).



Maybe it could be a mix of both our ideas? Maybe Boromir doesn't know about Aegnor and only sees the immortality envying, but Finrod manages to see more and understand more when speaking to Andreth? Finrod speaks to Angrod/Aegnor and Boromir and they agree to give him Ladros? I don't know just doing some brainstorming o_O
So if Boromir wants to remove Andreth and his people from the object of their envy, why not take them further? Ladros is practically the next state over.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
It's not an issue of getting away. It's a question of having their own lands and homes, not mingling with the elvish settlements.

So, in Bree, men and hobbits live in an 'intermingled' arrangement - there are houses for men and houses for hobbits in town, both groups frequent the local inn, and their little society contains both.

But in most other situations in Middle-earth, that separation is maintained - Dale may have a very close relationship with Erebor, but the dwarves live in the mountain and the men live in the town, and that's that.

Ladros is not meant to sever ties between the House of Bëor and the sons of Finarfin. It's meant to create some distance so the Men can have their own homes and own society, and interact with the elves as a separate entity.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
All of Beleriand doesn't need to know, but I think it would be weird if Boromir didn't know. And I didn't suggest that Boromir would base that decision only on her daughter's failed relationship, but rather on the broader problems among his people, such as envying the elves for their immortality. His daughter's broken heart could come in addition to that.
That story of Bereg I suggested, about Bereg being angry at the elves for not saving his grandpa (Bëor) and being "tricked" into leaving Beleriand by the bad guys lies, could make this problem more personal for Boromir. (And it could also give Bereg a backstory, not just him saying some bad things and leave, and it could be a way to bind the different generations together).



Maybe it could be a mix of both our ideas? Maybe Boromir doesn't know about Aegnor and only sees the immortality envying, but Finrod manages to see more and understand more when speaking to Andreth? Finrod speaks to Angrod/Aegnor and Boromir and they agree to give him Ladros? I don't know just doing some brainstorming o_O
When I say don’t want Boromir to know about Andreth and Aegnor’s relationship, what I mean is that I don’t want him to know that they were considering marriage. He could know that they were friends and see that they are no longer friends, but he would not know their friendship was romantic. I think that the possibility of marriage between a Man and an Elf should not be a concept that crosses the minds of many people, perhaps not even Andreth and Aegnor themselves at first. In addition to the mortality/immortality difference, Men, particularly the House of Bëor, should see Elves as much higher beings than themselves. They mistook Finrod for one of the Valar when they first met him.

I like your idea of connecting Boromir and Bereg to the death of Beor, and I think we should definitely use Boromir to show some of the problems that come up when Men live among Elves, but I don't want to make him more perceptive about these problems than Andreth. While he could readily agree that the move to Ladros is a good idea, I think the initiative should come wholly from the Elven side.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
So if Boromir wants to remove Andreth and his people from the object of their envy, why not take them further? Ladros is practically the next state over.
He still wants to serve the elves, so he wants his people to have their own settlements, but still be close to the elves and the frontlines so they can help in the war against Morgoth and strengthen the siege.
 

Alcarohtar

Active Member
Whoops, it seems I misspoke. What I’m asking is how we want Amlach to be incapacitated long enough for impersonation.
Hmm what if Amlach is lured away from Estolad and kept busy by the cats of Tevildo? That could be one more thing for Tevildo to do before he's killed by Haleth. And what if Amlach is saved when some elves from Doriath manage to chase them away? It could be something that changes his perception of the bad guys and the elves. He kind of owes his life to the elves now, and has realised that the bad guys really exist, so he decides to go north to the frontlines to serve the elves and help them against the enemy.
 
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