Session 5-05: The Storylines of Men, Part 1 - Haleth and ???

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Hmm what if Amlach is lured away from Estolad and kept busy by the cats of Tevildo? That could be one more thing for Tevildo to do before he's killed by Haleth. And what if Amlach is saved when some elves from Doriath manage to chase them away? It could be something that changes his perception of the bad guys and the elves. He kind of owes his life to the elves now, and has realised that the bad guys really exist, so he decides to go north to the frontlines to serve the elves and help them against the enemy.
True, and it would give the Elves from Doriath something to do. Thingol in this season isn't doing much except cause trouble for Aredhel and Haleth.

So what ideas are going to be presented to the Execs for next session?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
SilmFilm Session 5-05: Storylines of Men pt. 1

We want to avoid telling stories that are just migrations and introducing every named character from the time period. We need to tell good stories even if this does not mean following the text exactly, yet we want to preserve the spirit of Tolkien’s story.

The three houses of the Edain should each have a purpose in the story; they are illustrating three different examples of the human experience. The story of each house will be embodied in the stories of a small number of major characters.
House of Beor – embraces the role of serving the Elves
House of Hador – not sure whether to be formally aligned with the Elves or independent. This house’s identity should not just be that it is not like the other houses. They might be more interested in being military alliance than serving the Elves. Paralleling the houses of the Edain with the Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri, the House of Hador is like the Noldor. However, they are drawing closer to the Elves, not rebelling. Sauron would be manipulating Men kind of like Melkor was manipulating the Noldor in the fake Amlach story.
House of Haleth – remain independent from the Elves, even if they have the same goal


Family Trees
I had trouble taking notes on this part of the discussion. What the hosts wanted kept changing, and the gist was that we need to figure out the stories before we get the genealogy ironed out.

I believe that the inclusions of Bereg and Adanel have been justified, though not necessarily their place in the genealogy. Bereg is necessary to take Men back across the mountains and show that not all Men want to live with Elves. Adanel can be a mentor figure for Andreth and possibly a cousin or sister of Amalch.



What is the story of the Edain? Are they people who rejected Morgoth in the east? They could be parallel to the Faithful Numenoreans. Their legends of themselves have morphed over time. They don’t recognize Morgoth from their ancient history. They wouldn’t even have called him Morgoth. Some might realize after talking to Finrod that Morgoth is the guy from their history. The story of the eclipse would be passed down. They know they were fleeing from the Shadow; they are refugees. They are following rumor of the Light in the West. We could have a storytelling moment between Men.

We can make the houses of the Edain visually distinct to help viewers tell them apart. Those closer to the Elves will be fancier; Haleth’s people will be rougher.

Haleth’s Story
  • Haleth is looking for a safe place for her people where they are not serving anyone.
  • The unfriendship of the Green-elves can be focused on the House of Hador rather than the Haladin. Haleth’s resistance to Caranthir should not be due to preexisting prejudice from distrust of Elves. She dislikes the idea of serving anyone. She does not need to be discontented with Thargelion. The Haladin can be happy on their homestead until they get attacked by Orcs.
  • Haleth should be stubborn, sometimes bordering on foolish and prideful. The interaction between Caranthir and Haleth should be based on their own personalities. Haleth should understand that Caranthir is a jerk and would not be a good neighbor. Initially, Caranthir ignores the Haladin and thinks they are useless. He is impressed when he sees them fight off the Orcs, but he is still patronizing and maybe a little sexist.
  • The Haladin can be kind of like the rabbits from Watership Down (but Haleth isn’t having visions like Fiver). They are not sure what kind of land they want to live on at first. Haleth keeps searching for the perfect place to live. They want to avoid both Orcs and Elves. They start out on a farm then move to a forest.
  • A lot of people follow Haleth because she is charismatic. Haleth’s nephew would be a good character to push back against her.
  • Haleth is kind of a bully. She is admirable but not necessarily likeable. There can be a parallel between Haleth being a human establishing herself among Elves and Haleth being a woman establishing herself among men. She is not afraid of asserting her will to Elf lords or men among her tribe. She is not a beautiful woman who is also good in battle. We shouldn’t be casting someone too attractive. She should be tall.
  • When Haleth finds the borders of Doriath closed, she does not want to fight a battle she can’t win and endanger her people. She does not want to make the Elves her enemies. However, she would remember that Thingol denied her a place to live that the Elves did not appear to be using.
  • The Haladin go to Nan Dungortheb, and many people want to turn back. Haleth makes a speech to her people about how they have been denied every place they wanted to live and they have to move forwards and overcome any danger they encounter.
  • Why do the Haladin not go back across the mountains? Stubbornness. She also does not personally remember what was back over the mountains.
  • Beleg and Haleth can interact. He can be the one to turn her away from Doriath and warn her of the dangers of Nan Dungortheb. Beleg hears of her people’s journey through Nan Dungortheb and is impressed. When the Haladin first move into Brethil, Beleg is sent to her again to tell her that Brethil is part of Thingol’s kingdom.
  • Sauron could send Tevildo and some cats to Brethil to attack the Haladin. Some people want to move again, but Haleth refuses. Haleth and her Amazons go hunting Tevildo. Beleg helps out of respect for Haleth, but Haleth gets to face Tevildo alone.
  • Both Beleg and Caranthir will learn to respect Haleth. Caranthir does not respect Haleth as a person, but Beleg does. Beleg will speak on Haleth’s behalf to Thingol. Beleg would not be stealing Finrod’s role helping the Haladin. They would have different relationships to Thingol and to the Haladin. Finrod would be asking for a favor on behalf of the Haladin; Beleg would be making a recommendation.
  • How does this relate to the theme? Haleth is the human most resistant to change. All she wants is a place for her people to live.
  • In the timeline of the season, Haleth’s story could be the second one after the story of Beor, and she can be dead by the middle of the season.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Sauron could send Tevildo and some cats to Brethil to attack the Haladin.
I tried to get across during the session that we don't actually have to show the Angband chain of command here. Of course, during the siege, Big Cats in Brethil should not only be cause for some alarm, but also, one could wonder how they got there in the first place. Where do they have their base? Perhaps in Nan Dungortheb? Maybe the people of Haleth killing spiders will alert Tevildo, or some bats who witness the spider attacks, and they follow the people of Haleth to Brethil.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
SilmFilm Session 5-05: Storylines of Men pt. 1

We want to avoid telling stories that are just migrations and introducing every named character from the time period. We need to tell good stories even if this does not mean following the text exactly, yet we want to preserve the spirit of Tolkien’s story.

The three houses of the Edain should each have a purpose in the story; they are illustrating three different examples of the human experience. The story of each house will be embodied in the stories of a small number of major characters.
House of Beor – embraces the role of serving the Elves
House of Hador – not sure whether to be formally aligned with the Elves or independent. This house’s identity should not just be that it is not like the other houses. They might be more interested in being military alliance than serving the Elves. Paralleling the houses of the Edain with the Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri, the House of Hador is like the Noldor. However, they are drawing closer to the Elves, not rebelling. Sauron would be manipulating Men kind of like Melkor was manipulating the Noldor in the fake Amlach story.
House of Haleth – remain independent from the Elves, even if they have the same goal


Family Trees
I had trouble taking notes on this part of the discussion. What the hosts wanted kept changing, and the gist was that we need to figure out the stories before we get the genealogy ironed out.

I believe that the inclusions of Bereg and Adanel have been justified, though not necessarily their place in the genealogy. Bereg is necessary to take Men back across the mountains and show that not all Men want to live with Elves. Adanel can be a mentor figure for Andreth and possibly a cousin or sister of Amalch.



What is the story of the Edain? Are they people who rejected Morgoth in the east? They could be parallel to the Faithful Numenoreans. Their legends of themselves have morphed over time. They don’t recognize Morgoth from their ancient history. They wouldn’t even have called him Morgoth. Some might realize after talking to Finrod that Morgoth is the guy from their history. The story of the eclipse would be passed down. They know they were fleeing from the Shadow; they are refugees. They are following rumor of the Light in the West. We could have a storytelling moment between Men.

We can make the houses of the Edain visually distinct to help viewers tell them apart. Those closer to the Elves will be fancier; Haleth’s people will be rougher.

Haleth’s Story
  • Haleth is looking for a safe place for her people where they are not serving anyone.
  • The unfriendship of the Green-elves can be focused on the House of Hador rather than the Haladin. Haleth’s resistance to Caranthir should not be due to preexisting prejudice from distrust of Elves. She dislikes the idea of serving anyone. She does not need to be discontented with Thargelion. The Haladin can be happy on their homestead until they get attacked by Orcs.
  • Haleth should be stubborn, sometimes bordering on foolish and prideful. The interaction between Caranthir and Haleth should be based on their own personalities. Haleth should understand that Caranthir is a jerk and would not be a good neighbor. Initially, Caranthir ignores the Haladin and thinks they are useless. He is impressed when he sees them fight off the Orcs, but he is still patronizing and maybe a little sexist.
  • The Haladin can be kind of like the rabbits from Watership Down (but Haleth isn’t having visions like Fiver). They are not sure what kind of land they want to live on at first. Haleth keeps searching for the perfect place to live. They want to avoid both Orcs and Elves. They start out on a farm then move to a forest.
  • A lot of people follow Haleth because she is charismatic. Haleth’s nephew would be a good character to push back against her.
  • Haleth is kind of a bully. She is admirable but not necessarily likeable. There can be a parallel between Haleth being a human establishing herself among Elves and Haleth being a woman establishing herself among men. She is not afraid of asserting her will to Elf lords or men among her tribe. She is not a beautiful woman who is also good in battle. We shouldn’t be casting someone too attractive. She should be tall.
  • When Haleth finds the borders of Doriath closed, she does not want to fight a battle she can’t win and endanger her people. She does not want to make the Elves her enemies. However, she would remember that Thingol denied her a place to live that the Elves did not appear to be using.
  • The Haladin go to Nan Dungortheb, and many people want to turn back. Haleth makes a speech to her people about how they have been denied every place they wanted to live and they have to move forwards and overcome any danger they encounter.
  • Why do the Haladin not go back across the mountains? Stubbornness. She also does not personally remember what was back over the mountains.
  • Beleg and Haleth can interact. He can be the one to turn her away from Doriath and warn her of the dangers of Nan Dungortheb. Beleg hears of her people’s journey through Nan Dungortheb and is impressed. When the Haladin first move into Brethil, Beleg is sent to her again to tell her that Brethil is part of Thingol’s kingdom.
  • Sauron could send Tevildo and some cats to Brethil to attack the Haladin. Some people want to move again, but Haleth refuses. Haleth and her Amazons go hunting Tevildo. Beleg helps out of respect for Haleth, but Haleth gets to face Tevildo alone.
  • Both Beleg and Caranthir will learn to respect Haleth. Caranthir does not respect Haleth as a person, but Beleg does. Beleg will speak on Haleth’s behalf to Thingol. Beleg would not be stealing Finrod’s role helping the Haladin. They would have different relationships to Thingol and to the Haladin. Finrod would be asking for a favor on behalf of the Haladin; Beleg would be making a recommendation.
  • How does this relate to the theme? Haleth is the human most resistant to change. All she wants is a place for her people to live.
  • In the timeline of the season, Haleth’s story could be the second one after the story of Beor, and she can be dead by the middle of the season.
On Beleg: would the bond with the Haladin be why he brings a company to Brethil to help them out in the aftermath of the Dagor Bragollach? He’s the only leader from Doriath to participate in the Dagor Bragollach.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I tried to get across during the session that we don't actually have to show the Angband chain of command here. Of course, during the siege, Big Cats in Brethil should not only be cause for some alarm, but also, one could wonder how they got there in the first place. Where do they have their base? Perhaps in Nan Dungortheb? Maybe the people of Haleth killing spiders will alert Tevildo, or some bats who witness the spider attacks, and they follow the people of Haleth to Brethil.
A base in Nan Dungortheb seems to be the likely case. Tevildo could also be among the parties that attack Aredhel and her escorts when she leaves Gondolin. Thurwingwethil could see the spiders being killed, alerts Tevildo, and they harry the Haladin all the way to Brethil.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Thoughts on Haleth: since we have her fighting and killing Tevildo, how should she do it? What weapons does she use? How does she fight; is she speedy, long-range, defense-oriented, or a heavy-hitter?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I have a lot of doubts about how the timeline is going to work in regards to the compression of the family tree. It's going to significantly affect how much of a peace it feels like.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Thoughts on Haleth: since we have her fighting and killing Tevildo, how should she do it? What weapons does she use? How does she fight; is she speedy, long-range, defense-oriented, or a heavy-hitter?
As for a weapon, definitely a spear. As to the latter question, I'm not sure those things are mutually exclusive outside of video games.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
SilmFilm Session 5-05: Storylines of Men pt. 1

Family Trees
I had trouble taking notes on this part of the discussion. What the hosts wanted kept changing, and the gist was that we need to figure out the stories before we get the genealogy ironed out.



Haleth’s Story
  • A lot of people follow Haleth because she is charismatic. Haleth’s nephew would be a good character to push back against her
I agree that the family trees remain in flux at this point.

But one thing Corey Olsen seemed fairly clear on was that he wanted to condense a few generations here and there. He was okay with eliminating either Balan or Boromir, so that it would be Bëor --> Son --> Andreth. So, Andreth as Bëor's granddaughter (rather than great-granddaughter) seemed clear. He was okay with Andreth being the much older sister of a young Barahir, making her Beren's aunt. Those choices would remove 2 generations of the 5 in the original family tree (well, by 'original', I mean the published Silmarillion version). We may not wind up doing both, but I think that eliminating at least one generation from the House of Bëor is something that we will do.

Keeping Boromir as a named character was contingent on giving him a story worthy of the name later being given to a member of the Fellowship.

Adanel can be included, but her place in the genealogy needn't be something we ever specify/call out. She's important in her role as Andreth's mentor, but she needn't also be someone's sister/daughter/mother to 'fit' into the story.

Another place that condensing seemed to be desired was in Haleth's family tree. So, we have Haldad as father of the twins, Haleth and Haldar. But rather than having Haldar be the father of Haldan, who is the father of Hareth, he'd rather introduce Hareth as Haleth's niece and heir. He did specifically call that out on Nick's family tree when we got to that stage. Haldan will most likely be eliminated in our version of the story.

Again, nothing is 100% nailed down at this point, but those were some of the directions we're currently leaning in.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I agree that the family trees remain in flux at this point.

But one thing Corey Olsen seemed fairly clear on was that he wanted to condense a few generations here and there. He was okay with eliminating either Balan or Boromir, so that it would be Bëor --> Son --> Andreth. So, Andreth as Bëor's granddaughter (rather than great-granddaughter) seemed clear. He was okay with Andreth being the much older sister of a young Barahir, making her Beren's aunt. Those choices would remove 2 generations of the 5 in the original family tree (well, by 'original', I mean the published Silmarillion version). We may not wind up doing both, but I think that eliminating at least one generation from the House of Bëor is something that we will do.

Keeping Boromir as a named character was contingent on giving him a story worthy of the name later being given to a member of the Fellowship.

Adanel can be included, but her place in the genealogy needn't be something we ever specify/call out. She's important in her role as Andreth's mentor, but she needn't also be someone's sister/daughter/mother to 'fit' into the story.

Another place that condensing seemed to be desired was in Haleth's family tree. So, we have Haldad as father of the twins, Haleth and Haldar. But rather than having Haldar be the father of Haldan, who is the father of Hareth, he'd rather introduce Hareth as Haleth's niece and heir. He did specifically call that out on Nick's family tree when we got to that stage. Haldan will most likely be eliminated in our version of the story.

Again, nothing is 100% nailed down at this point, but those were some of the directions we're currently leaning in.
So removing some of these generations: how much does this compress the timeline?
 
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