Session 5-06: The Storylines of Men, Part 2 - Bëor, Amlach, and (possibly) Hador

I guess the question I have is whether or not we should have the Orc attack on the stockade before or after the Council. If we have it before the Council it shows that Morgoth has already given up on recruiting Men (or at least the Edain), which defeats the purpose of the Fake Amlach, the aim of which is to keep Men and Elves apart. An Orc attack would undermine the idea that the Fake Amlach or Bereg would be trying to propagate that the Orcs would be willing to leave them alone.
 
It would be easy enough to claim that *those* Men got attacked by orcs because they were living in Elven lands and taken for elvish allies. It could easily be twisted into a reason why Men should be leery of 'getting involved' with elves, and the advantages of remaining completely separate (which is really Fake!Amlach's goal - to get the Men to avoid forming any alliance with the elves).

The fact that the Haladin weren't actually allied with the Sons of Fëanor and were strictly independent people is something that would be difficult to establish without dispute if there are no Haladin at the Council.
 
MithLuin said:
It would be easy enough to claim that *those* Men got attacked by orcs because they were living in Elven lands and taken for elvish allies. It could easily be twisted into a reason why Men should be leery of 'getting involved' with elves, and the advantages of remaining completely separate (which is really Fake!Amlach's goal - to get the Men to avoid forming any alliance with the elves).

The fact that the Haladin weren't actually allied with the Sons of Fëanor and were strictly independent people is something that would be difficult to establish without dispute if there are no Haladin at the Council.
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Depends on whether or not the Haladin should show up at the Council.

What is on the docket for Amlach?
 
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We will discuss the Council, certainly.

I know you are keen to discuss the method by which Sauron lures him away. At this stage of planning, though, the point is to establish that Sauron does in fact kidnap/capture him before the council, rather than have him just be 'away' for some innocuous reason. We will work out the details when we plan out the individual episode.
 
MithLuin said:
We will discuss the Council, certainly.

I know you are keen to discuss the method by which Sauron lures him away. At this stage of planning, though, the point is to establish that Sauron does in fact kidnap/capture him before the council, rather than have him just be 'away' for some innocuous reason. We will work out the details when we plan out the individual episode.
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You are right, I am keen to discuss how Sauron keeps him away and even how he stirs up resentment against the Elves via Amlach; I just hope the idea isn’t thrown out...
 
SilmFilm Session 5-06: Storylines of Men pt. 2

Bëor

Because of the structure and perspective of The Silmarillion, the reasons why Men move different places are unclear. A goal of SilmFilm should be to create storylines that explain Men’s motivations so that we are telling a good story.

The people of Bëor are the first and quickest to devote themselves to the Elves. They practically worship them. They will need to have a multi-generational story arc.

In the book, Bëor alone goes with Finrod to Nargothrond. This might work if Bëor is like the ambassadors (Ingwë, Finwë, and Elwë), but he dies in Nargothrond before going back to his people. However, we want to show what Men living among Elves looks like with a whole people rather than with one person.

Finrod should begin the season by viewing Men the same way the Valar saw Elves. He wants to create something like Valinor where Men and Elves can live together and Elves can teach and protect Men, which might help to redress the crimes of the Noldor. Bëor is in complete agreement, and the House of Bëor moves to Nargothrond.

There might be some problems with moving an entire people into a secret realm, but the House of Bëor can start out very small (50-100 people) to mitigate this. They will grow over time, and the large numbers that cause Fingolfin to think it is time to fight Morgoth near the end of the season can come mostly from the House of Hador, which will be by far the biggest house.

After Bëor moves to Nargothrond, he lives there the rest of his life. He sees Nargothrond as paradise and thinks it is the Light in the West that Men were searching for. Ironically, Nargothrond is underground, and someone could bring this up. The House of Bëor will not be doing any fighting after they come to Nargothrond, which will be a contrast with the House of Haleth.

The only events that must happen before Bëor’s death is his people's arrival in Nargothrond.

Bëor’s death should prefigure the death of Aragorn. Finrod assumes Bëor is dying of grief like Elves, but Bëor explains that he is submitting to death. This death can seem positive to Finrod because Bëor accepts it, but Bëor’s death of old age is the first blow against Finrod’s Valinor for Men plan.

The second blow is the unrest of Men. Living directly with the Elves in Nargothrond seems good at first, but problems arise over time. Men should not be retiring to paradise and ignoring the world. They need change and would be discontented without it. Also, their population is growing pretty rapidly.

Several generations, about 75-80 years, pass between Bëor and Andreth in which the House of Bëor dwells in Nargothrond. Then, young Andreth perceives that it would be better for Men and Elves to live separately and encourages the House of Bëor to move to Dorthonion, where she ironically falls in love with Aegnor. Finrod comes to see that the paradise he tried to establish cannot last, and he is glad that the House of Bëor didn't do any kinslaying on their way out.

When the House of Bëor move to Dorthonion, they are on the front lines of the war against Morgoth, and their culture transforms. Barahir and Beren are warriors enriched by Elvish knowledge, kind of like Aragorn.


Amlach and Hador

The Council involves mostly the House of Hador, although the other houses might send representatives. It takes place while the House of Bëor is in Nargothrond. After the Council, some Men go back east, and the rest of the house goes to Dor-lómin. Hador is the leader of these people at this time, but we want to try to preserve the element of Amlach entering the service of Maedhros.

Next session, we will discuss Hador first and then Amlach.
 
The text says that 2,000 Men of the House of Beor cross. Maybe they’re up to 3,000 by the Council, Bereg takes 1,000 back over the Blue Mountains , and we have 4,000 by the Dagor Bragollach?

Also, I’m not really on board with having the House of Beor not really know much about combat before going to Dorthonion/Ladros. That’s like taking a low-grade rookie offensive guard, putting him up against a high-level defensive tackle like Mean Joe Greene or Bob Lilly, and expecting him to do well; I remember watching footage of a play in Super Bowl VI pitting the Dallas Cowboys against the Miami Dolphins, with Lilly busting through Pro Bowl offensive linemen Jim Langer and Bob Kuchenberg and sacking Dolphins QB Bob Griese for a 29-yard loss. Anyways, why would Finrod be okay with them going there if they’re going to be steamrolled?
 
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Ange1e4e5 said:
The text says that 2,000 Men of the House of Beor cross. Maybe they’re up to 3,000 by the Council, Bereg takes 1,000 back over the Blue Mountains , and we have 4,000 by the Dagor Bragollach?

Also, I’m not really on board with having the House of Beor not really know much about combat before going to Dorthonion/Ladros. That’s like taking a low-grade rookie offensive guard, putting him up against a high-level defensive tackle like Mean Joe Greene or Bob Lilly, and expecting him to do well. Anyways, why would Finrod be okay with them going there if they’re going to be steamrolled?
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I don't recall exact numbers being mentioned in the book. Can you remind me where in the Silmarillion that is found?
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Also, I’m not really on board with having the House of Beor not really know much about combat before going to Dorthonion/Ladros.
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I think we agree that they have fought before entering Beleriand. We could perhaps show younger generations being trained while in Nargothrond, either by the Elves, or by themselves, as some kind of sign of restlessness.
 
Haakon said:
I think we agree that they have fought before entering Beleriand. We could perhaps show younger generations being trained while in Nargothrond, either by the Elves, or by themselves, as some kind of sign of restlessness.
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The Professor seemed to think they wouldn’t know how to fight.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
The Professor seemed to think they wouldn’t know how to fight.
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At some point, probably yes, at least to a degree.

I didn't listen to the session except for a few minutes at the end so I can only guess what he meant. I could guess then, that they initially know how to fight, but that they stop any kind of arms training while living in Nargothrond (which I doubt, though, it won't drop to 0%, even if some people will forget about fighting), but that after some time, after Bëor dies, they begin to want to take action somehow, connected to their desire to move out of their sheltered life in the cave realm. They should then start to remember their earlier and now to an extent forgotten knowledge about weapons and fighting, and the Elves will also teach them something of their skills.
 
Haakon said:
At some point, probably yes, at least to a degree.

I didn't listen to the session except for a few minutes at the end so I can only guess what he meant. I could guess then, that they initially know how to fight, but that they stop any kind of arms training while living in Nargothrond (which I doubt, though, it won't drop to 0%, even if some people will forget about fighting), but that after some time, after Bëor dies, they begin to want to take action somehow, connected to their desire to move out of their sheltered life in the cave realm. They should then start to remember their earlier and now to an extent forgotten knowledge about weapons and fighting, and the Elves will also teach them something of their skills.
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He didn’t say anything about them knowing how to fight beforehand.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
He didn’t say anything about them knowing how to fight beforehand.
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Again, I can only guess what he thinks but I am going to be bold here and assume that he agrees that they can’t have journeyed from back East without using any weapons whatsoever.
 
Looking at the Silmarillion text, it says that the Edain want to go westward but can‘t; there’s Doriath to the north (plus Nan Dungortheb) and the fens of Sirion to the south. It’s going to be rather difficult moving the House of Beor to Nargothrond. On the other hand Haleth will look more impressive by forging her path through Nan Dungortheb.
 
Haakon said:
So we agree about the fighting skills of the people of Bëor?
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I don’t agree that they atrophy while they’re in peacetime as the Professor suggests. If their skills atrophied, why would they take a position at the front lines if they’re going to be ill-prepared or useless? I have a problem with the House of Beor going to Nargothrond but it appears that the Professor is dead-set on it.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
I don’t agree that they atrophy while they’re in peacetime as the Professor suggests. If their skills atrophied, why would they take a position at the front lines if they’re going to be ill-prepared or useless? I have a problem with the House of Beor going to Nargothrond but it appears that the Professor is dead-set on it.
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I did not get the impression that he was suggesting that their skills atrophied, but rather that they lived a softer life in Nargothrond than the House of Haleth did in the wild. The House of Beor won't be actively fighting Orcs, but this doesn't mean the people won't be making and learning to use weapons. When they leave their sheltered life with the Elves, they will see more clearly the threat of Morgoth and probably participate in more real fighting, so they will become a more militaristic culture than they were in Nargothrond. Even if they are a bit softer when they first leave Nargothrond, they wouldn't be leaving at a time of active war, so it's not like they would be marching right out into battle. They would have time to train before they saw actual combat.

The Professor very clearly said that he was not dead-set on the House of Beor going to Nargothrond. He wants the House of Beor to live directly with the Elves and seem restricted by their environment out of the Elves' desire to protect and provide for them.
 
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