Session 5-06: The Storylines of Men, Part 2 - Bëor, Amlach, and (possibly) Hador

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I would prefer that the Council come before the introduction of Haleth and the Battle at the Stockade for two main reasons:
...

Also, even if they don't happen in the same episode, I think there is a logical progression from Beor's death to the Council. Because Haleth's story is so isolated, it would seem weird to have it take place between these.

If we have an episode in which Beor visits Estolad, we could also introduce Amlach and Adanel there as some of Bereg's friends.
Currently, the plan is to have Bëor introduced, then have Haleth introduced, and after that introduce Amlach.

So, a more likely progression at this point is:
  • Bëor meets Finrod
  • Haleth at the Stockade
  • Death of Bëor
  • Council
I agree with you that the death of Bëor can easily lead into the Council meeting - but we want Haleth to be an early story. We're not going to wait until Episode 5 to introduce her; she will be dead (well, out of the story, anyway) by Episode 7, most likely. It is very much possible to have Haleth born in Beleriand and have the stockade battle happen before Bëor's death.

I think we can tweak Morgoth's strategy to be whatever we need it to be. But again, keep in mind the tension in Angband's leadership structure. Orc armies are sent out by Gothmog, and are thus not necessarily connected in any way to Sauron's spying and deceits.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Currently, the plan is to have Bëor introduced, then have Haleth introduced, and after that introduce Amlach.

So, a more likely progression at this point is:
  • Bëor meets Finrod
  • Haleth at the Stockade
  • Death of Bëor
  • Council
I agree with you that the death of Bëor can easily lead into the Council meeting - but we want Haleth to be an early story. We're not going to wait until Episode 5 to introduce her; she will be dead (well, out of the story, anyway) by Episode 7, most likely. It is very much possible to have Haleth born in Beleriand and have the stockade battle happen before Bëor's death.

I think we can tweak Morgoth's strategy to be whatever we need it to be. But again, keep in mind the tension in Angband's leadership structure. Orc armies are sent out by Gothmog, and are thus not necessarily connected in any way to Sauron's spying and deceits.
I would've thought that the Orc attacks could be Gothmog losing his patience after Sauron fails at the Council, Gothmog essentially goes "Curse you and your convoluted plots!" and send an Orc army to the Stockade, then a later one would be the engagement where Hador makes his bones.

Also, looking at information on the Dagor Bragollach, is there any particular reason why Sauron is not listed as a commander during that battle?
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Currently, the plan is to have Bëor introduced, then have Haleth introduced, and after that introduce Amlach.

So, a more likely progression at this point is:
  • Bëor meets Finrod
  • Haleth at the Stockade
  • Death of Bëor
  • Council
I agree with you that the death of Bëor can easily lead into the Council meeting - but we want Haleth to be an early story. We're not going to wait until Episode 5 to introduce her; she will be dead (well, out of the story, anyway) by Episode 7, most likely. It is very much possible to have Haleth born in Beleriand and have the stockade battle happen before Bëor's death.

I think we can tweak Morgoth's strategy to be whatever we need it to be. But again, keep in mind the tension in Angband's leadership structure. Orc armies are sent out by Gothmog, and are thus not necessarily connected in any way to Sauron's spying and deceits.
Is there any reason why the Haladin would not go to the Council? Because they’re not mentioned at the Council and if we have the Council after Haleth goes to Brethil, it would be a bit of a hassle to re-cross Nan Dungortheb (which is not completely spider-free since Beren has to get through them plus Ered Gorgoroth) to go to the Council in Estolad.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Hmmm, that would be an interesting way to tie the story of Haleth into the other stories of Men - if they're invited to the Council and they either show up and disagree, or just don't bother attending in the first place. That could work if the Council happens after the Stockade battle, but before Haleth is turned away from Doriath.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I would have liked to have Sauron’s plot at the Council fail, whoever’s in charge of the Orcs decide that Sauron‘s plots are stupid, and send a force to attack the new stockade built by the Haladin.

Who is in charge of the Orcs, by the way?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Gothmog commands the armies of Angband. He'll appear personally in major battles (Dagor Aglareb, Dagor Bragollach, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Fall of Gondolin). The orcs' leader in the field is Boldog. He's a very large orc (well...) whose personality leans in the...beat everyone into submission direction.

Boldog probably isn't at the stockade battle. This may be the time to introduce the minor orc leader who is going to kill Barahir next season...but only if we're okay with orcs being long lived.

I think the desire to have the stockade battle happen early in the season is the right impulse. I don't think it makes sense for Angband to wait for Sauron's plans before acting with regard to Men entering Beleriand, and at any rate, we will discuss the Angband storyline at a later time.

Next week's session will focus on the stories of Bëor, Amlach, and (time permitting) Hador.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Gothmog commands the armies of Angband. He'll appear personally in major battles (Dagor Aglareb, Dagor Bragollach, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Fall of Gondolin). The orcs' leader in the field is Boldog. He's a very large orc (well...) whose personality leans in the...beat everyone into submission direction.

Boldog probably isn't at the stockade battle. This may be the time to introduce the minor orc leader who is going to kill Barahir next season...but only if we're okay with orcs being long lived.

I think the desire to have the stockade battle happen early in the season is the right impulse. I don't think it makes sense for Angband to wait for Sauron's plans before acting with regard to Men entering Beleriand, and at any rate, we will discuss the Angband storyline at a later time.

Next week's session will focus on the stories of Bëor, Amlach, and (time permitting) Hador.
I’ve had my suggestions about the Amlach storyline, which involves Sauron, and I don’t feel right since I’ve possibly brought it up too much. We could combine the ideas by having Sauron try to turn the House of Hador against the Elves and Orcs are sent to assail the Haladin simultaneously. The attack on the Haladin could be used as “proof” (really falsehood) by Sauron impersonating Amlach that the Elves are not to be trusted.

As far as Orcs who live a long time, it’s certainly possible since Bolg lives almost 150 years after succeeding his father at the end of the War of Dwarves and Orcs. Who do we want to give the order to the Orcs?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Hmmm, that would be an interesting way to tie the story of Haleth into the other stories of Men - if they're invited to the Council and they either show up and disagree, or just don't bother attending in the first place. That could work if the Council happens after the Stockade battle, but before Haleth is turned away from Doriath.
So possibly Haleth would be on her way to Doriath when the Council occurs?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I don't think the Haladin should be present at the Council. They don't have anything to add to the discussion, and they aren't going to be influenced by any of the arguments made there.

The points debated at the Council center around whether Men should remain in Beleriand and be friends with the Elves. The Haladin come up with their answers to these questions independently. Haleth is set on finding a safe place for her people to settle in Beleriand, and her view on friendship with the Elves will be shaped by her negative interactions with Caranthir and Thingol.

If we have Haleth take her people to the Estolad and participate in the discussion, I feel like we would reduce the impact of these events on the Haladin's views, unless their minds are already made up when they get to the Council. If their minds are already made up, then I think they would undermine a lot of the arguments made by the other attendees. I can't imagine Haleth hearing fake Amlach talking about how there is room for Orcs and Men to peacefully coexist with out saying something like "Oh yeah, and what do you call the attack in which my father and brother were killed by Orcs?"
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I don't think the Haladin should be present at the Council. They don't have anything to add to the discussion, and they aren't going to be influenced by any of the arguments made there.

The points debated at the Council center around whether Men should remain in Beleriand and be friends with the Elves. The Haladin come up with their answers to these questions independently. Haleth is set on finding a safe place for her people to settle in Beleriand, and her view on friendship with the Elves will be shaped by her negative interactions with Caranthir and Thingol.

If we have Haleth take her people to the Estolad and participate in the discussion, I feel like we would reduce the impact of these events on the Haladin's views, unless their minds are already made up when they get to the Council. If their minds are already made up, then I think they would undermine a lot of the arguments made by the other attendees. I can't imagine Haleth hearing fake Amlach talking about how there is room for Orcs and Men to peacefully coexist with out saying something like "Oh yeah, and what do you call the attack in which my father and brother were killed by Orcs?"
If we have the Orc attack before the Council, would this mean that Morgoth has given up on trying to get Men on his side (or at least not with the Elves) until the Dagor Bragollach?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
If we have the Orc attack before the Council, would this mean that Morgoth has given up on trying to get Men on his side (or at least not with the Elves) until the Dagor Bragollach?
This is one of the problems I have with placing the attack on the stockade before the Council. Even if the Haladin don't attend the council, any word of Orcs attacking Men after they entered Beleriand should raise serious doubts about the idea fake Amlach puts forth that the Orcs would allow Men to live in peace. Morgoth should at least give Sauron a chance to sway Men away from the Elves before attacking them.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
As I understand the timeline of the First Age, the council happens six years before the battle of the stockade (369 and 375). All of the three kindreds could be invited to the council, but the people of Haleth could decline (and show their general tendency towards independence).
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
It's of course not necessary to follow that timeline exactly. What's the difference, a few years here and there? I don't mind introducing Haleth early on, but I'm not sure why we have to wait with the council. Why can't we begin by more or less having the three kindreds pour into Beleriand - I mean, we begin with Bëor's people, and then the others arrive, bringing more trouble and the Elves could have problems telling them apart, and then we have the council, and in the process surrounding the council we get to understand something of the differences. We also learn that one of the groups aren't at the council, and then bam, we move to the people of Haleth and the Stockade attack.
 
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