Session 5-13 and 5-14: Last of the Elves + Villains

Rhiannon said:
Last season, there was talk about spreading out the reveal of Glaurung's powers; consequently, we did not show his ability to speak during his attack in Episode 13. We did show that he was capable breathing fire and hypnotizing some Elves with his eyes.

If we want to save the reveal of Glaurung's ability to speak for the Dagor Bragollach, we will have to show him not speaking in any scenes of Angband before that. That might make it difficult to portray him as having any part in the internal politics of Angband. Or, we could simply forget about what we said last season and show Glaurung talking to the other villains this season.

Another possibility would be to differentiate between Glaurung's ability to speak and his ability to speak with the kind of persuasive, hypnotic power he later uses on Turin. Perhaps we could have Glaurung speak normally in his conversations with other villains in Angband, use some kind of musical cue or transformation of the actor's voice to indicate when Glaurung is casting a spell with his words, and then reveal this ability during the Dagor Bragollach.

I could envision a potential scene where Glaurung is attacking Maglor's Gap, and Maglor orders his soldiers not to look into Glaurung's eyes because that's how the Elves know he is able to hypnotize people. The soldiers obey, but then Glaurung starts talking. Maybe he counters Maglor's orders or calls out to Maglor personally, but either way, the morale of Maglor's soldiers fails, and Glaurung wins the battle.
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Having him show up and be part of the planning (if we intend to show any of the planning for the Dagor Bragollach) might be in play; you don't expect a dragon to be a strategist.
 
Oh... About a year ago, we discussed introducing a female Falathrim Elf, who would be sister of the Galdor who now has moved to Gondolin, or a close relative to Círdan, and who will be Voronwë’s mother. So maybe we should try to come up with a good story for her?

EDIT: Voronwë is already born (in Nevrast).
 
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Haakon said:
Oh... About a year ago, we discussed introducing a female Falathrim Elf, who would be sister of the Galdor who now has moved to Gondolin, or a close relative to Círdan, and who will be Voronwë’s mother. So maybe we should try to come up with a good story for her?
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Well, Voronwe's father is of the Gondolodrim (Turgon's folk) and his mother is of Cirdan's folk. How would somebody of the Falas adjust to being hemmed in?
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Well, Voronwe's father is of the Gondolodrim (Turgon's folk) and his mother is of Cirdan's folk. How would somebody of the Falas adjust to being hemmed in?
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I just noticed the old discussion and we said his mother was of Círdan’s people and that she could be his confidant after Galdor has gone. So yeah you’ve got a point, except that we have decided that Galdor, Círdan’s captain, moves to Gondolin. And Voronwë’s mother could go with him for some reason (they could be a small group going together). She meets Aranwë in Gondolin of course. Then she can’t be Círdan’s captain, but she could feature in scenes in Gondolin.
EDIT: Voronwë is born in Nevrast. His mother and father meet there, not in Gondolin.
 
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Haakon said:
I just noticed the old discussion and we said his mother was of Círdan’s people and that she could be his confidant after Galdor has gone. So yeah you’ve got a point, except that we have decided that Galdor, Círdan’s captain, moves to Gondolin. And Voronwë’s mother could go with him for some reason (they could be a small group going together). She meets Aranwë in Gondolin of course. Then she can’t be Círdan’s captain, but she could feature in scenes in Gondolin.
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She and Aranwe could be in charge of communications into Gondolin. Depends on how much Círdan is in the know about Gondolin.
 
Yeah maybe! I was thinking she’d simply be part of the large group of Sindar who live in Gondolin, but if communication with Círdan is possible, she could do that. Maybe Turgon maintains some kind of link for a while, that stops after Dagor B.

EDIT: She could live in Gondolin, but she could also live in Eglarest. She and Aranwë could then communicate with each other, and relay intel into and out of Gondolin.
 
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Haakon said:
Yeah maybe! I was thinking she’d simply be part of the large group of Sindar who live in Gondolin, but if communication with Círdan is possible, she could do that. Maybe Turgon maintains some kind of link for a while, that stops after Dagor B.
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The channel seemed to have reopened for a brief time after the Nirnaeth, since that’s when Turgon starts sending Elves to look for a path to Valinor.
 
Having slept on the matter, I think that while Voronwë is an important (but perhaps small) character, his parents are really not that important and we don't have to make up stories about them. If we establish that Galdor is captain of the House of the Tree, and that many Sindar follow him*, it won't be hard to present Voronwë as someone born in that House.

We should perhaps come up with something for Galdor to do, though. He could feature in Gondolin scenes, of course, but I'm not sure what he would do. Caution Aredhel and her companions? Be one of the companions?


*This idea isn't exactly what Tolkien wrote but he seems to have had a couple of different ideas, as usual - I'm not sure whether he wanted Galdor of the Tree to be a Noldo or a Sinda. In our version, we have assumed that Galdor, Círdan's captain, is the later named Galdor of the Havens, and now also Galdor of the Tree.
 
Haakon said:
We should perhaps come up with something for Galdor to do, though. He could feature in Gondolin scenes, of course, but I'm not sure what he would do. Caution Aredhel and her companions? Be one of the companions?
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Apart from giving him one of the more generic roles in the Aredhel story that any lord of Gondolin could fill, we could try to make use of his unique position in the ongoing discussions about Gondolin's purpose between Aredhel and Turgon (and later between Turgon and Idril?), because unlike all the Noldor lords, he hasn't seen Tirion upon Tuna which Turgon tries to emulate in Gondolin more than ever - especially Turgon's faux Two Trees are interesting, because they of course can't hope to reach the original's beauty and all the important Gondolin characters know that - except for Galdor (and later Maeglin). I don't know if that means Galdor would be more on board or less on board with Turgon's plans, but he has a unique perspective, having only seen sauce on tuna.
 
Yeah... Since he has chosen to join the Gondolin project, he should at least initially be really committed to it. And, looking forward to the fall of Gondolin, when he shall be playing an important part in the battle, be the salvation of Tuor and other things, one could get the idea that he hasn't lost his faith in the project throughout the years. So we could make him one of the most enthusiastic Turgon supporters. There's no particular need to make him extra wise or anything - sure, he is a close friend of Círdan, who is wiser than most, but wisdom doesn't necessarily run off. So he doesn't have to have bad feelings about Turgon's isolationism. I guess he could ask questions about Tirion and Aman, and make Turgon show his nostalgia. He could of course be instrumental should play an important role later on when Turgon starts to send ships to find Aman. But that is later.

Oh about Voronwë... he's supposedly born already, in Nevrast. So we could have his mother live in Eglarest and be Círdan's captain (or have some other important position), while her son and husband live in Gondolin. It could be an interesting story, a split up family. Voronwë could feel he's possibly made the wrong decision and debate whether he should return to the coast. Perhaps Galdor talks him into staying. It could contrast Aredhel leaving.
 
On Aredhel's companions (again): I think the way things are described in the Silmarillion ultimately turn out to be the best (!). Glorfindel et al actually go with Aredhel into Nan Dungortheb, but they are separated, they lose her. They manage to get out and return to Gondolin. I know, some people don't want Glorfindel to fail, ever, but I don't think it has to be a problem. Also, if we show that Nan Dungortheb is dangerous for Elven lords, Haleth making it through will look even more awesome.
 
I agree with you Haakon, but you're missing the more important consequence 😛 Haleth, despite disstent, forces her people through Nan Dungortheb and they lose some on the way, when they could've just gone around Doriath in the south - even if it's badass that they make it through, it was a bad decision on her part, really (and the hosts agreed we don't want to portray Haleth as a flawless leader, she has her faults).

Now Beren...he is pursued and forced out of Dorthonion, so he goes, on his own, through the Ered Gorgoroth and Nan Dungortheb into Doriath. Now that is what I call awesome!
 
Alcarlótë said:
I agree with you Haakon, but you're missing the more important consequence 😛 Haleth, despite disstent, forces her people through Nan Dungortheb and they lose some on the way, when they could've just gone around Doriath in the south - even if it's badass that they make it through, it was a bad decision on her part, really (and the hosts agreed we don't want to portray Haleth as a flawless leader, she has her faults).

Now Beren...he is pursued and forced out of Dorthonion, so he goes, on his own, through the Ered Gorgoroth and Nan Dungortheb into Doriath. Now that is what I call awesome!
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Good Point! It is a three-stage story of people daring to go through Nan Dungortheb.
 
As for what Tevildo is doing in Brethil, I think one can assume that he is waylaying stray Elves and sending them along to Sauron as a part of the catch and release program.
 
Haakon said:
As for what Tevildo is doing in Brethil, I think one can assume that he is waylaying stray Elves and sending them along to Sauron as a part of the catch and release program.
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What route do you think Tevildo and the prisoners take to and from Angband? Sorry if that has been worked out in the past already, but I'm struggling a bit on this question :s
 
Alcarlótë said:
What route do you think Tevildo and the prisoners take to and from Angband? Sorry if that has been worked out in the past already, but I'm struggling a bit on this question :s
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I don’t know. Perhaps there’s a route through Nan Dungortheb and up through Dorthonion? Whatever route they take, it will be risky. Perhaps Sauron sets up camp in Nan Dungortheb to deal with this. Maybe he has a cave or something there. Perhaps that’s why he is taken by surprise by Dagor B.
 
Session 5-14: Villains

Villains

We need to balance not showing the bad guys and preserving a sense of menace. If we constantly show the infighting among the villains, they will look less serious. The Dagor Bragollach should take everyone by surprise. We can build in the viewers the expectation that the climax will involve a decision made by the Elves, but instead Morgoth will attack.

We can focus on Sauron and his team rather than on Morgoth and Gothmog. Sauron will be planning separately from Morgoth. This will allow us to show characters who will die soon (Tevildo, Boldog, Thuringwethil, Draugluin), begin showing Sauron drifting away from Morgoth, and not betray the Dagor Bragollach.

Off screen, Morgoth will be planning the Dagor Bragollach with Gothmog and Glaurung. How do we convey that Morgoth’s attack was premature and he could have wiped out the Elves if he had waited longer? Sauron could be caught by surprise by the timing of the attack and complain about the attack coming too soon. Sauron will complain to Gothmog when Gothmog is boasting about what he has done. Sauron can say they should have waited until after he took Minas Tirith, waited for him to destroy the alliance between Men and Elves, waited for Ulfang and the Easterlings to arrive.

Are there more Dragons? No. Glaurung will be revealed in his splendor alone during the Dagor Bragollach. The Dagor Bragollach is also kind of Morgoth’s test of Dragons. It is extremely successful, so Morgoth will begin investing in more Dragons. After the Dagor Bragollach, Glaurung will be taking his place as a chief lieutenant of Morgoth. We need more Dragons by the Fall of Gondolin at the latest. Perhaps Gondolin will be the first place we show multiple Dragons. We don’t want to overshadow the betrayal of Ulfang with a multi-Dragon attack.

How long do Dragons take to grow up? Our only reference is Smaug, which is very vague. We have 55 years from the Dagor Bragollach to the Fall of Gondolin. Glaurung will focus on reproduction between the Dagor Bragollach and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Morgoth can use his power to augment the new Dragons while diminishing himself. The new Dragons will have variations, but not wings yet.

Morgoth, Gothmog, and Glaurung, will probably not appear on screen. The Elves can still talk about Glaurung and speculate about what he is. They will not know that he was not fully-grown. Sauron and his minions can talk about Glaurung and the other villains. Sauron might talk about his own plan to take over Beleriand. The Dagor Bragollach is the final example of Morgoth stepping on Sauron’s work. Sauron is losing faith in Morgoth and dismayed by his lack of subtlety. He does not trust Morgoth to make the best plan. Sauron will begin to distance himself more after Morgoth is shamed by Fingolfin. Sauron and his minions might be in denial about Morgoth’s failings. Sauron would be surprised that Morgoth is able to decline like he does.

Morgoth – will not show up until the Dagor Bragollach

Sauron – catch-and-release program, sowing dissension between Men and Elves

Thuringwethil – spy; Sauron’s chief lieutenant

Tevildo – killed by Haleth; might hunt Aredhel when she is around Brethil; scatters Aredhel’s party

Draugluin – involved in Huan’s prophecy

Gothmog – Dagor Bragollach; does not show up until the end

Boldog – leads the attack on the Haladin’s stockade, which is not coordinated with Sauron. Sauron wants to set the humans against the Elves and manipulate them, not kill them; this attack creates solidarity between the Men and Elves. The Orcs come around the Ered Lindon via the Dwarf-road, which might be involved in the Dwarf plot. Boldog’s orders probably come from Gothmog (but we don’t show this). Gothmog does not take Men seriously, does not care whether they can be turned against Elves. He sends out a small army with Boldog in order to prove his point that Men can be easily destroyed.

Glaurung – saved until the Dagor Bragollach

Shelob – Nan Dungortheb

Rhogrin and Annael

Rhogrin and Annael will escape, Díriel will not. Rhogrin and Annael can escape together whether than separately.

Annael will be a spy for the enemy. His treachery will not be revealed until he helps with the taking of Minas Tirith next season. Thuringwethil will visit him at night to take his memories, similar to Dracula visiting Lucy Westenra. While Annael is a prisoner, Sauron places the Spell of Not-so-Bottomless Dread on him when he is asleep. Even Annael will not know or suspect that he is a traitor. This means that anybody could be an unwitting traitor. Eventually, Annael will notice that his memories are being stolen because of the gaps in his memory.

The escape from Angband can be entirely heroic with no hint that there is anything wrong with Annael. Díriel will not escape. She has sworn an oath to Morgoth not to escape.

Hador will earn his reputation helping Rhogrin and Annael with their escape.

We will figure out Huan’s story next time and then discuss the episode outline for the season.
 
Nice! Thanks for the notes, Rhiannon!

Could someone please remind me, how and when does Rhogrin end up in Gondolin?
 
Haakon said:
Nice! Thanks for the notes, Rhiannon!

Could someone please remind me, how and when does Rhogrin end up in Gondolin?
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I might have overlooked previous discussions, but I don't think it was mentioned today or recently...considering we already have quite a few characters going to the Gondolin who aren't from there (Maeglin, Eol, Hurin, Huor, Tuor) we should be careful about undermining the secrecy element of the city which will come into focus later on. To me, the most obvious point in time is that Rhogrin retreats with a remnant of the Noldor of Hithlum along with Turgon, at which point there's basically nowhere to go but Gondolin. Leading the last of the Noldor from Hithlum to Gondolin explains why he ends up the head of a noble house, and that Rhogrin had to (for one reason or another) abandon his dear lord Fingon to be killed by Balrogs will give a good background for his reckless charge and courageous stand during the Fall of Gondolin.

Edit: Me and Nick are in sync today! o:
 
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