Session 5-13 and 5-14: Last of the Elves + Villains

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I might have overlooked previous discussions, but I don't think it was mentioned today or recently...considering we already have quite a few characters going to the Gondolin who aren't from there (Maeglin, Eol, Hurin, Huor, Tuor) we should be careful about undermining the secrecy element of the city which will come into focus later on. To me, the most obvious point in time is that Rhogrin retreats with a remnant of the Noldor of Hithlum along with Turgon, at which point there's basically nowhere to go but Gondolin. Leading the last of the Noldor from Hithlum to Gondolin explains why he ends up the head of a noble house, and that Rhogrin had to (for one reason or another) abandon his dear lord Fingon to be killed by Balrogs will give a good background for his reckless charge and courageous stand during the Fall of Gondolin.

Edit: Me and Nick are in sync today! o:
Well, in the cases of Maeglin and Tuor, they have someone guiding them in who is familiar with Gondolin. Eol is smart enough to figure out where Aredhel and Maeglin went, and Hurin and Huor were flown in. And yes, for Rhogrin there’s literally nowhere else to go and Turgon was the only remaining Elf commander left in the field; Gwindor was already captured, Fingon is dead, the Sons of Feanor were in the Eastern front and already fled, and Thingol and Cirdan took no part in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad apart from Beleg and Mablung.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I don't think we're risking the secrecy element of Gondolin, actually. But perhaps we should think about situations when other Elves want to contact Turgon, but have no means to do so. Fingolfin would be one obvious example of course (I'm thinking before the big push).
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I don't think we're risking the secrecy element of Gondolin, actually. But perhaps we should think about situations when other Elves want to contact Turgon, but have no means to do so. Fingolfin would be one obvious example of course (I'm thinking before the big push).
The most likely Elven lord to keep in contact with Turgon is likely Cirdan. Both are connected with Ulmo, who is the most active Vala not named Morgoth, Turgon contacts him after the Nirnaeth to find pathways back to Valinor.

The other main Elves who might try and contact him are Fingon and Maedhros, but not until after Beren and Luthien, instead as part of the alliance leading up to the Nirnaeth. Speaking of which, how do they coordinate efforts? It’s not like these guys have ravens ;)

So @Haakon, I remember we discussed a few months ago the idea of having Annael placing a false alarm with the ”assistance” of Thurwingwethil of a feint-type attack by Gorgul on Barad Eithel while Sauron and Draugluin take Minas Tirith. Maybe bring that idea up again?

Edit: It was Here.
 
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Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
The most likely Elven lord to keep in contact with Turgon is likely Cirdan. Both are connected with Ulmo, who is the most active Vala not named Morgoth, Turgon contacts him after the Nirnaeth to find pathways back to Valinor.

The other main Elves who might try and contact him are Fingon and Maedhros, but not until after Beren and Luthien, instead as part of the alliance leading up to the Nirnaeth. Speaking of which, how do they coordinate efforts? It’s not like these guys have ravens ;)

So @Haakon, I remember we discussed a few months ago the idea of having Annael placing a false alarm with the ”assistance” of Thurwingwethil of a feint-type attack on Barad Eithel while Sauron and Draugluin take Minas Tirith. Maybe bring that idea up again?

Edit: It was Here.
In the scripts, we’ve shown Círdan knowing about Gondolin, though not it’s exact location. Presumably Turgon will reach out to Círdan when he begins trying to send ships west. I don’t think Círdan has any reason to keep in touch before that.

I’m not sure Fingon and Maedhros would Try to reach out to Turgon before the Nirnaeth. Turgon’s appearance at that battle is pretty unexpected, and if we have Fingon and Maedhros trying to send messages to Gondolin beforehand, it will just look like one of those messages got through.

As for communication between Fingon and Maedhros, we shouldn’t rule out ravens. We’ve shown birds being used as messengers on the show before. Also, Maedhros is going to retake a lot of territory between Beren & Lúthien and the Nirnaeth; the book says “even Dorthonion was freed for a while,” so there would be at some point safe passage for messengers from all the way from Himring to Hithlum.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
So @Haakon, I remember we discussed a few months ago the idea of having Annael placing a false alarm with the ”assistance” of Thurwingwethil of a feint-type attack on Barad Eithel while Sauron and Draugluin take Minas Tirith. Maybe bring that idea up again?
Yeah! But let’s do it next season, that’s when they attack Minas Tirith, right?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
In the scripts, we’ve shown Círdan knowing about Gondolin, though not it’s exact location. Presumably Turgon will reach out to Círdan when he begins trying to send ships west. I don’t think Círdan has any reason to keep in touch before that.

I’m not sure Fingon and Maedhros would Try to reach out to Turgon before the Nirnaeth. Turgon’s appearance at that battle is pretty unexpected, and if we have Fingon and Maedhros trying to send messages to Gondolin beforehand, it will just look like one of those messages got through.

As for communication between Fingon and Maedhros, we shouldn’t rule out ravens. We’ve shown birds being used as messengers on the show before. Also, Maedhros is going to retake a lot of territory between Beren & Lúthien and the Nirnaeth; the book says “even Dorthonion was freed for a while,” so there would be at some point safe passage for messengers from all the way from Himring to Hithlum.
So how would Turgon know that they're working on the alliance/battle in the first place?
Yeah! But let’s do it next season, that’s when they attack Minas Tirith, right?
Yes.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
But in all seriousness, you have to remember how Eagles work. They aren't messengers. They are far-ranging observers. So, they figure out that Fingon and Maedhros are planning an offensive, and bring that news to Turgon. Turgon then makes his own plans to join in, and likely lets Thorondor know this so that timing can be coordinated. But Thorondor doesn't visit Fingon and let him know Turgon is coming or anything.

Also, the Nirnaeth is post visit of Hurin and Huor to Gondolin. We have seen the active relationship the Eagles have with Turgon multiple times by then.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Also, do we want to introduce Gorgol the Butcher this season, in case Sauron needs to talk to the rank and file Orcs, which he uses to weed out Barahir's band? I tried to raise the question in Thursday's session but it got swept under the rug.
 
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Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Also, do we want to introduce Gorgol the Butcher this season, in case Sauron needs to talk to the rank and file Orcs, which he uses to weed out Barahir's band? I tried to raise the question in Thursday's session but it got swept under the rug.
If we have a scene which requires named Orcs, we can keep Gorgol in mind.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Numbers question: how many Orcs do we want Boldog to bring to the stockade battle? The Haladin's numbers are slated to be around 2,000 (smaller than the House of Hador's 6,000), perhaps around 3,000 Orcs?
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Question: so we’ve decided that Sauron is not at Angband and not in the know when the Dagor Bragollach is enacted, but where is he?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Question: so we’ve decided that Sauron is not at Angband and not in the know when the Dagor Bragollach is enacted, but where is he?
I may have missed a post or two, but I'm not certain that it's been decided that Sauron cannot be at Angband during this season. Just because he isn't involved in the sudden and somewhat rash decision to throw the party early doesn't mean we have to hide the party preparations from him. He knows they have a big campaign planned. And Angband is a pretty big place. Just because we show Sauron in Angband doesn't mean we have to show Gothmog or Morgoth.

As to other places he can be, we can have outdoor locations, or even small safehouses near where they have operations in progress.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Sauron can absolutely be in Angband and one or more occasion this season. I would suggest that he is there in the beginning, but certainly not towards the end of the season, since we will want him to be surprised by the timing of Dagor Bragollach. The surprise element of ‘the party’, as Nick calls it, should primarily be one the viewers should experience though, and Sauron only to a degree. He expects the attack, but the viewers don’t. This means that he could perhaps talk about an attack in conversation with Thuringwethil, but state that this and that has to be taken care of first. And we should know that those things haven’t been taken care of. But even if we have the bad guys talk about an attack, it should be in rather vague terms I think. Well, I digress... Where was I.. yes: I suggest that Sauron is in Angband to begin with, but leaves when he learns of the coming of Men, and preferably before Rhogrin escapes.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Sauron can absolutely be in Angband and one or more occasion this season. I would suggest that he is there in the beginning, but certainly not towards the end of the season, since we will want him to be surprised by the timing of Dagor Bragollach. The surprise element of ‘the party’, as Nick calls it, should primarily be one the viewers should experience though, and Sauron only to a degree. He expects the attack, but the viewers don’t. This means that he could perhaps talk about an attack in conversation with Thuringwethil, but state that this and that has to be taken care of first. And we should know that those things haven’t been taken care of. But even if we have the bad guys talk about an attack, it should be in rather vague terms I think. Well, I digress... Where was I.. yes: I suggest that Sauron is in Angband to begin with, but leaves when he learns of the coming of Men, and preferably before Rhogrin escapes.
Maybe he puts his spell on some of the Elven prisoners in Angband (see the C-Plot in Episode 3 on @MithLuin's color-coded plotline in 5.15), then leaves?
 
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