Session 6-02: The Villain Storylines

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yuck lol I kid. I just hate the term Mary Sue. It normally is used for overpowered characters who never experience an obstacles. Which is the death of drama. Even if you can overcome an physical hurdle you need a moral or emotional one. It’s why I think so few writers seem to be able to tell good superman stories.
Yes, a Mary Sue character tends to be one who is so overpowered that she can achieve seemingly impossible tasks with ease, as well as a character who 'warps' the characters around her into behaving in decidedly out-of-character ways, typically because they develop a sudden love for her. Everyone is now a supporting character in her story, regardless of what role they played in the story before.

And I stand by that evaluation - Lúthien is the ultimate Mary Sue.

Sure, Beren falls in love with her, but then, there's nothing unusual about that. She's a beautiful elf maiden, after all, and he's never met anyone like her before. But then Celegorm has the same reaction, instantly smitten the moment he sees her, and Celegorm has seen beautiful elf maids before. He was, in fact, good friends with Aredhel in the before times. And then Lúthien does a lot of magic stuff that no one else can do, including sing down a tower and put Morgoth to sleep. And speaking of people acting oddly when she comes around, I would be willing to overlook Morgoth (even though I probably shouldn't be so willing), but Mandos??? No one, and I mean no one, has ever given him a sob story that moved his heart. And yet, Lúthien sings a beautiful song to him, and he's suddenly moved to pity and says, 'wait, let me go ask my boss.' She cheats death.

So yeah...total Mary Sue.

Doesn't mean it's a bad story. Of course not, it's a great story!

Thor is one of the more Superman-like characters of the MCU (presumably Captain Marvel is as well, but I didn't watch that movie). And certainly between Ragnarok and Infinity War, they were building him up to be high-powered enough that nothing could really damage him physically. You could leave him for dead, floating around in outer space, but that didn't kill him. You could shoot him with the full power of a neutron star, but he was just singed a bit. Emotionally, however, he was a wreck - he'd lost his planet and his family and an eye, and failed to save the world. So, by the time Endgame came around, sure, he was powerful...but too unstable to be trusted with any significant superheroing. Lot of stuff left to resolve in the next Guardians of the Galaxy film. He needed Rocket for counseling purposes, and that was before he failed to kill Thanos. After that, he's straight up unreliable.

Can elves go insane? Seems a human aliment to me. Not something elves would be prone too. Sorrow makes elves fade and lose the will to live, but can it muddle their sharp minds? Could be some later bard projecting a human condition onto the character in a song but is it even actually possible technicality? I could imagine him just laying down under a tree and die out of despair but to go insane? Seems un-elvish to me. Of course if one of the bad guys met him accidentally in the forest and placed him under a spell or had he drunk something from an enchanted stream such effect would be possible. But simply going insane?
Elves can go fey. That's very much canonical. And, as you point out, they can give in to despair, giving up the will to live, and just laying down to die. So, I would say that madness is an ailment that elves can experience. As for wandering indefinitely due to grief or madness, I do present the other famous First Age elven bard - Maglor is going to forsake society and wander alone for the rest of his days after he fulfilled the Oath and cast aside the silmaril.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Yes, a Mary Sue character tends to be one who is so overpowered that she can achieve seemingly impossible tasks with ease, as well as a character who 'warps' the characters around her into behaving in decidedly out-of-character ways, typically because they develop a sudden love for her. Everyone is now a supporting character in her story, regardless of what role they played in the story before.

And I stand by that evaluation - Lúthien is the ultimate Mary Sue.

Sure, Beren falls in love with her, but then, there's nothing unusual about that. She's a beautiful elf maiden, after all, and he's never met anyone like her before. But then Celegorm has the same reaction, instantly smitten the moment he sees her, and Celegorm has seen beautiful elf maids before. He was, in fact, good friends with Aredhel in the before times. And then Lúthien does a lot of magic stuff that no one else can do, including sing down a tower and put Morgoth to sleep. And speaking of people acting oddly when she comes around, I would be willing to overlook Morgoth (even though I probably shouldn't be so willing), but Mandos??? No one, and I mean no one, has ever given him a sob story that moved his heart. And yet, Lúthien sings a beautiful song to him, and he's suddenly moved to pity and says, 'wait, let me go ask my boss.' She cheats death.

So yeah...total Mary Sue.

Doesn't mean it's a bad story. Of course not, it's a great story!

Thor is one of the more Superman-like characters of the MCU (presumably Captain Marvel is as well, but I didn't watch that movie). And certainly between Ragnarok and Infinity War, they were building him up to be high-powered enough that nothing could really damage him physically. You could leave him for dead, floating around in outer space, but that didn't kill him. You could shoot him with the full power of a neutron star, but he was just singed a bit. Emotionally, however, he was a wreck - he'd lost his planet and his family and an eye, and failed to save the world. So, by the time Endgame came around, sure, he was powerful...but too unstable to be trusted with any significant superheroing. Lot of stuff left to resolve in the next Guardians of the Galaxy film. He needed Rocket for counseling purposes, and that was before he failed to kill Thanos. After that, he's straight up unreliable.



Elves can go fey. That's very much canonical. And, as you point out, they can give in to despair, giving up the will to live, and just laying down to die. So, I would say that madness is an ailment that elves can experience. As for wandering indefinitely due to grief or madness, I do present the other famous First Age elven bard - Maglor is going to forsake society and wander alone for the rest of his days after he fulfilled the Oath and cast aside the silmaril.
Well, in the case of Celegorm and Aredhel, it isn't like they could had have a relationship closer than comradeship due to the Elven laws against marrying those who are closer than second cousins given the Maeglin story (Celegorm and Aredhel are half-first-cousins).
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I am quite happy to discuss villains more.

One problem i always had with werewolves is that i do not yet see them much as characters... do we really have talking wolves? Do we give them much of a personality? Like Gmork? Or Maugrim?
For Silm Film, we decided to have 'levels' of werewolf-type creatures. (None have the ability to transform into human shape, except for technically Sauron....but that is more Sauron assuming and then discarding the form of a werewolf.)

Draugluin, the Father of Werewolves, is the top tier. He is a Maia who has been forced into a tortured wolf body. We saw something of this process in Season 2. Sauron was involved; it was an 'experiment' of sorts. Draugluin is maybe a bit Gmork-like.

The next tier down is other werewolf-creatures. These are supernatural, but they don't talk. So, the wolves that attack the Fellowship on Caradhras, and leave no bodies behind? These are ngaurhoth - werewolves.

And then there are wargs, who are basically wolves that work for the villains and can be ridden as mounts by the orcs. But, they're mostly just...wolves. Vaguely evil wolves. When you kill them, you get a dead body.


Well, in the case of Celegorm and Aredhel, it isn't like they could had have a relationship closer than comradeship due to the Elven laws against marrying those who are closer than second cousins given the Maeglin story (Celegorm and Aredhel are half-first-cousins).
Right, among elves, first cousins is incest.
Half-first-cousins, though.....
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
For Silm Film, we decided to have 'levels' of werewolf-type creatures. (None have the ability to transform into human shape, except for technically Sauron....but that is more Sauron assuming and then discarding the form of a werewolf.)

Draugluin, the Father of Werewolves, is the top tier. He is a Maia who has been forced into a tortured wolf body. We saw something of this process in Season 2. Sauron was involved; it was an 'experiment' of sorts. Draugluin is maybe a bit Gmork-like.

The next tier down is other werewolf-creatures. These are supernatural, but they don't talk. So, the wolves that attack the Fellowship on Caradhras, and leave no bodies behind? These are ngaurhoth - werewolves.

And then there are wargs, who are basically wolves that work for the villains and can be ridden as mounts by the orcs. But, they're mostly just...wolves. Vaguely evil wolves. When you kill them, you get a dead body.
So would the Isle of Werewolves be primarily ngaurhoth or wargs in your view? If we're downplaying the presence of werewolves in the story (I wonder if this is a mistake given the island's name), maybe we have the concept of Tol-in-Gaurhoth partially serving the purpose of a cavalry marshaling point?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The Isle of Werewolves should be populated with second-tier werewolves, I think. The wargs seen in battle during the Battle of Sudden Flame were the third tier. Carcaroth can certainly be first tier - a Maia incarnate in wolf form, or just a monstrous version of the second tier type.

Could we not make that Draugluin? Or perhaps if we go the route of Sauron have a more incorporeal wolf form, could it be that that emerges from the shadows of cells and consumed people. I just really think that a succession of werewolves puts us in a very repetitive place. If you show that Draugluin has in affect been a precursor to Carcharoth this whole time and is himself a red herring to the prophecy, that makes sense to have him (and the fact that, you know, we know Draugluin). I suppose it's truer to say that it justifies why we introduce this bigger badder werewolf in Carcharoth: we already have an expectation that the big bad wolf in the prophecy out to be Draugluin. So offing him makes the audience think it's all okay...then you drop the bombshell of Carcharoth, as discussed by Corey et al. I really love that. I just think introducing other werewolves dilutes it. A string of progressively tougher werewolves clues the audience into the fact that there is a big boss werewolf on the horizon and spoils the needle scratch that is Carcharoth. And at worst, I worry it could be comical, having werewolf after werewolf. I think once Draugluin is gone, you need an absence of any werewolve adversaries so that Caracharoth comes as a real shock. Which is why I think something different needs to be done with Sauron himself. Just to make him visually interesting and distinct as an enemy 'wolf' if nothing else.
To be clear, the 'string of werewolves' Nick was objecting to was specifically the series of wolves that Sauron sends out one at a time, and Huan lurks at the end of the bridge to kill off, one at a time, until finally Draugluin makes it back to tell Sauron that Huan is there before he dies. That 'string' of wolves fought one after another in a row will have a video-game feel on screen, and should be avoided for the sense of repetition. Huan's main fights are with Draugluin and with wolf-Sauron...so that is what we will show.

The Isle of Werewolves being populated by multiple werewolves isn't a problem. The wolf in the shadows that kills each of Finrod's companions need not be a character, nor even the same wolf each time. Nor will we be showing it eat every single one of the 12 companions. Rather, this is a case of choosing how to portray that without making it repetitive. I don't think we need to add Draugluin or Sauron to that scene. Having either of them defeated prior to the arrival of Huan and Lúthien will diminish the later fight, won't it? Showing Finrod fight a werewolf bare-handed (and, presumably, naked, though we might not be showing that!) should be a tense enough scene with a nameless adversary - and the point of the fight is that Finrod wins - Beren is protected - but Finrod dies in the process. So, showing Sauron personally kill Finrod doesn't seem necessary - the fact that Sauron's lackey has killed Finrod while Finrod is in his dungeon...in a tower Finrod himself built...is the point.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
The Isle of Werewolves should be populated with second-tier werewolves, I think. The wargs seen in battle during the Battle of Sudden Flame were the third tier. Carcaroth can certainly be first tier - a Maia incarnate in wolf form, or just a monstrous version of the second tier type.



To be clear, the 'string of werewolves' Nick was objecting to was specifically the series of wolves that Sauron sends out one at a time, and Huan lurks at the end of the bridge to kill off, one at a time, until finally Draugluin makes it back to tell Sauron that Huan is there before he dies. That 'string' of wolves fought one after another in a row will have a video-game feel on screen, and should be avoided for the sense of repetition. Huan's main fights are with Draugluin and with wolf-Sauron...so that is what we will show.

The Isle of Werewolves being populated by multiple werewolves isn't a problem. The wolf in the shadows that kills each of Finrod's companions need not be a character, nor even the same wolf each time. Nor will we be showing it eat every single one of the 12 companions. Rather, this is a case of choosing how to portray that without making it repetitive. I don't think we need to add Draugluin or Sauron to that scene. Having either of them defeated prior to the arrival of Huan and Lúthien will diminish the later fight, won't it? Showing Finrod fight a werewolf bare-handed (and, presumably, naked, though we might not be showing that!) should be a tense enough scene with a nameless adversary - and the point of the fight is that Finrod wins - Beren is protected - but Finrod dies in the process. So, showing Sauron personally kill Finrod doesn't seem necessary - the fact that Sauron's lackey has killed Finrod while Finrod is in his dungeon...in a tower Finrod himself built...is the point.
So what happens to these werewolves once Draugluin and Sauron are defeated? Rocks fall, everyone dies?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I’m pretty up to date on season 5, but in terms of looking for Thuringwethil content, prior to 5, what arcs/episodes should I be looking at?
Season 2 introduces the conflict between Sauron and Gothmog. The balrogs are powerful, and do what they want. Sauron is a relative newcomer to their ranks, and while Melkor clearly liked him...Melkor isn't here right now. So, Sauron has to build up his own loyal supporters. Thuringwethil becomes a right-hand to him. She loves information, knowing things, finding out secrets...and so for her, Sauron is an attractive co-conspirator. There is never anything romantic between them, but there is mutual respect and admiration. They each consider the other person capable, rather than incompetent. In Season 2, Sauron begins work on his super secret necromantic orc project. The other members of his posse include Draugluin and Tevildo.

In Season 3, Melkor has returned, and the balrogs assist him, restoring Gothmog to his place by Melkor's side. Meanwhile, Morgoth is not interested in fallen elves who worship him. He's angry, and he takes some of that anger out on Sauron's SSNOP. And now they are orcs. And also Gothmog's. Morgoth takes the project away from Sauron, who is therefore a bit...disgraced? The First Battle is very Boldog-centric (not Sauron's initiative). The attack on the havens that presages the Second Battle, though, is all Sauron's forces - it's carried out by wolves and vampires. We see some of Thuringwethil's vampires attack elven ships from the air. Thuringwethil herself also assists Sauron in recruiting the giant spiders (Shelob) for the attack on Doriath. IIRC, Thuringwethil is the messenger who comes to the Fëanorean camp to propose a meeting, which leads to the destruction of Maedhros' entire army by Sauron (and a bunch of newly-revealed trolls).

In Season 4, Thuringwethil and Sauron work together and independently to ferret out the secrets of the Noldor. Thuringwethil spies out the plans for Minas Tirith before it is constructed (WHICH MIGHT BE RELEVANT NOW), and also goes undercover as a Noldo at the Mereth Aderthad, taking ship with Círdan to see if she can sow distrust with him by hinting at a dark secret she does not actually know. The one piece of information she has that Círdan does not is that....the Noldor burned the ships at Losgar, not the orcs or forces of Angband. This is enough to make Círdan take his misgivings to Thingol, leading to the Kinslaying reveal.

Season 5 Thuringwethil, of course, plays a role in the Amlach storyline, and is also the contact for the ensorcelled Annael. So, she will definitely play a role in his act of betrayal associated with the fall of Minas Tirith to Sauron's forces early in Season 6.
 

Mithrim

New Member
Hello Silmfilm Team
I just want to say first that I have been following this podcast and boards for over a year now and it has been great so far! Now I have a question and I don't know if this is in the right thread.
Has the show ever established Sauron's title as the Necromancer and why he is called that? I believe it is in Morgoth's Ring where Tolkien explains that Sauron can enslave the spirits of elves that reject the summons of Mandos
In anticipation of this season I was re-reading the Lay of Leithian and was struck by all the mentions of ghosts, shades, evil spirits etc. Sauron tricks Gorlim into believing that his wife is still alive with a "wraith" and he is mentioned to hold a host of phantoms with glamoury. If the hosts decide to show the Halls of Mandos this season, this might be a good thing to explore.
 
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Rob Harding

Active Member
Yes, a Mary Sue character tends to be one who is so overpowered that she can achieve seemingly impossible tasks with ease, as well as a character who 'warps' the characters around her into behaving in decidedly out-of-character ways, typically because they develop a sudden love for her. Everyone is now a supporting character in her story, regardless of what role they played in the story before.

And I stand by that evaluation - Lúthien is the ultimate Mary Sue.

Sure, Beren falls in love with her, but then, there's nothing unusual about that. She's a beautiful elf maiden, after all, and he's never met anyone like her before. But then Celegorm has the same reaction, instantly smitten the moment he sees her, and Celegorm has seen beautiful elf maids before. He was, in fact, good friends with Aredhel in the before times. And then Lúthien does a lot of magic stuff that no one else can do, including sing down a tower and put Morgoth to sleep. And speaking of people acting oddly when she comes around, I would be willing to overlook Morgoth (even though I probably shouldn't be so willing), but Mandos??? No one, and I mean no one, has ever given him a sob story that moved his heart. And yet, Lúthien sings a beautiful song to him, and he's suddenly moved to pity and says, 'wait, let me go ask my boss.' She cheats death.

So yeah...total Mary Sue.

Doesn't mean it's a bad story. Of course not, it's a great story!

Thor is one of the more Superman-like characters of the MCU (presumably Captain Marvel is as well, but I didn't watch that movie). And certainly between Ragnarok and Infinity War, they were building him up to be high-powered enough that nothing could really damage him physically. You could leave him for dead, floating around in outer space, but that didn't kill him. You could shoot him with the full power of a neutron star, but he was just singed a bit. Emotionally, however, he was a wreck - he'd lost his planet and his family and an eye, and failed to save the world. So, by the time Endgame came around, sure, he was powerful...but too unstable to be trusted with any significant superheroing. Lot of stuff left to resolve in the next Guardians of the Galaxy film. He needed Rocket for counseling purposes, and that was before he failed to kill Thanos. After that, he's straight up unreliable.



Elves can go fey. That's very much canonical. And, as you point out, they can give in to despair, giving up the will to live, and just laying down to die. So, I would say that madness is an ailment that elves can experience. As for wandering indefinitely due to grief or madness, I do present the other famous First Age elven bard - Maglor is going to forsake society and wander alone for the rest of his days after he fulfilled the Oath and cast aside the silmaril.
What I was specifically referring to is the general portrayal of a Mary Sue (often as an author-insert in fan fiction) never facing a problem they cannot overcome without ease. There’s drama, then the Mary Sue steps in and the drama is over. Almost a constant deus ex machina in their own story. The story is going and, oh, here comes the Mary Sue, and now that part is over. No drama. That’s what I dislike in Mary Sue characters. Thor is almost the ideal opposite of this: super powerful and super flawed so there’s always drama. You don’t need someone as flawed as Thor, but you need drama. There’s no point watching a character who never struggles. There’s no story there.

Thanks for the Thuringwethil breakdown, very useful stuff. I was specifically trying to think about how she feels about Sauron this series. As a spy type character, could she have a better grasp of Luthien and Beren than Sauron? Could she have a better prediction of Luthien’s prowess than Sauron? When I did my own take in the tale I had Thuringwethil (who’d obviously had no prior appearances in my context) act as a seductress to Beren in an attempt to drive a wedge between this growing union. Just trying to change up her role and character apart from Sauron before her demise.

In terms of werewolves, yes, I recognised the discussion surrounded mainly the bridge scene and yes, one wolf after another is probably a bad way to do it. That said, it could make a really intense montage. Literally every two steps Huan takes another wolf cones. Every one he fights leaves him more bloodied abd he won’t let Luthien approach until he’s safely cleared the bridge. Then, all wolves killed, Luthien cones up and heals him. Swelling music, no dialogue, quick cuts. Could work. What I don’t think would work is having to many ‘prominent’ werewolves. I quite like the idea of different wolves entering the dungeons. I think as soon as you single any out as special by having one main guard wolf, they get built up. And the more wolves indivisible built up, the more distracted the audience will get. The less impact Carcharoth has. You want to keep it simple. Even show a pack of starving wolves scrapping in an adjacent room and maybe every now and the a hatch opens and the first open to get through gets to eat a prisoner before some signal calls them back? Just make them part of the torture system rather than antagonists with intent.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
And speaking of people acting oddly when she comes around, I would be willing to overlook Morgoth (even though I probably shouldn't be so willing), but Mandos??? No one, and I mean no one, has ever given him a sob story that moved his heart. And yet, Lúthien sings a beautiful song to him, and he's suddenly moved to pity and says, 'wait, let me go ask my boss.' She cheats death.
This is actually easier to understand if one assumes the Valar having invested a lot in the establishment of an Ainu-bloodline among the Children. As (according to NoME) Melian is refusing to get pregnant again (due to the way the process binds her to the material world), Luthien dying childless makes the whole plan and a lot of effort fail just after a very promising start - and there is doubt a similar attempt can be ever tried again. So using a pretext to ensure Luthien does start a bloodline is actually quite self-serving here from the Valar's perspective.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Well, yes, Mary Sue characters are typically written as wish-fulfillment self-insert fanfiction stories, where the authors are not necessarily skilled, and the goal is not to make a dramatic story, but one that is fun for the writer. There is seldom any attempt to add dramatic tension, because that is not the point of what the author is doing in that story. But just because they are generally written that way does not mean that they have to be that way by definition. The definition tends to focus on the type of character, which Lúthien is, and the effect of that character on the story, which Lúthien has. Also, we happen to know that Tolkien was very much writing self-insert with the Beren and Lúthien story. ;)


Hi, Mithrim! Welcome to Silm Film :) Sauron's role as Necromancer was introduced in Season 2, when he was working on several projects that utilized those skills. One of those projects was the creation of Draugluin. Draugluin (in Silm Film) is a Maia spirit loyal to Melkor...who is then bound in wolf form by Sauron in a process that can only be described as torture. Also at this time, Sauron undertakes the Super Secret Necromantic Orc Project, in which he is trying to mold captured elves into slaves worshipping Morgoth. The details of this project are left....up in the air, but presumably Sauron does have the ability to wrench spirits out of bodies (temporarily).

Just as there is an opportunity for Thû in Season 6...there is certainly the opportunity for Sauron to again showcase his necromancy skills. We have not really introduced the concept of Hungry Houseless spirits who did not make it to Mandos yet, but we probably do want to bring that in at some point here.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Hello Silmfilm Team
I just want to say first that I have been following this podcast and boards for over a year now and it has been great so far! Now I have a question and I don't know if this is in the right thread.
Has the show ever established Sauron's title as the Necromancer and why he is called that? I believe it is in Morgoth's Ring where Tolkien explains that Sauron can enslave the spirits of elves that reject the summons of Mandos
In anticipation of this season I was re-reading the Lay of Leithian and was struck by all the mentions of ghosts, shades, evil spirits etc. Sauron tricks Gorlim into believing that his wife is still alive with a "wraith" and he is mentioned to hold a host of phantoms with glamoury. If the hosts decide to show the Halls of Mandos this season, this might be a good thing to explore.
Not to mention a wraith of Gorlim is conjured admitting his treachery to Beren, and telling him to warn his father and their companions. Beren arrives too late.

I will admit this one is confusing; why would Sauron conjure a wraith of Gorlim to warn them if he had already had them killed, why allow Beren to arrive too late to even get himself killed by stragglers?
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Not to mention a wraith of Gorlim is conjured admitting his treachery to Beren, and telling him to warn his father and their companions. Beren arrives too late.

I will admit this one is confusing; why would Sauron conjure a wraith of Gorlim to warn them if he had already had them killed, why allow Beren to arrive too late to even get himself killed by stragglers?
If he gets everybody killed, who will suffer then? Having the last one - no longer a threat (because alone on his own) - suffer the loss is the ultimate victory.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
Is the wraith of Gorlim necessary? I’m not sure it’s vital storytelling. I feel like you can have Beren arrive late and see the fires burning. The reason he isn’t there is more interesting than what called him back. If it’s hunting or trapping or tracking, then we are setting up skills. A useful adage when introducing characters is to give them a ‘dog and a trumpet’. I think this was coined by a soap writer here in the UK. Basically, show something to build sympathy and connection (the ‘save the cat’ principle) and give them a unique talent or feature so we feel like we know them and know they have this useful skill that could come into play. I mean, Beren doesn’t really need calling back. He wasn’t leaving so would have returned of his own accord. You could have Gorlim’s image warn him to build tension, but I’m some ways, that breaks it. As an audience, you know there’s a threat snd you know he will either arrive in time or not. But what’s worse than seeing a man happily strolling through a glen, past a lake, up a slope with fresh food in his arms, only for him to drop it as his face is illuminated by flames. Seeing his home ablaze snd his people massacred (or still being massacred) is way more of a dramatic punch. You could have a confrontation where he watches Gorgol kill Barahir and escape to reinforce that need for vengeance. Gorlim is how Sauron finds the location but do we need more than that
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
If he gets everybody killed, who will suffer then? Having the last one - no longer a threat (because alone on his own) - suffer the loss is the ultimate victory.
Call it strategic value/pragmatism; what use is leaving one person alive if that person is able to take revenge?
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Call it strategic value/pragmatism; what use is leaving one person alive if that person is able to take revenge?
But Beren alone seems not to be much of a threat and Sauron is an artist, he cannot kill all his audience - who will admire his artwork = success - if he does? Beren will probably die alone in the forest anyway - but remembering Sauron's success. I highly doubt Sauron's is about pure efficiency.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
But Beren alone seems not to be much of a threat and Sauron is an artist, he cannot kill all his audience - who will admire his artwork = success - if he does? Beren will probably die alone in the forest anyway - but remembering Sauron's success. I highly doubt Sauron's is about pure efficiency.
I just think it’ll come across as a bizarre choice and involve more legwork. You can literally have just set up Gorlim being captured and tortured, cut to Beren coming home and seeing the destruction
 
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