Session 6-03: Sauron and Thuringwethil

[Octoburn]

What kinds of goals/stakes can we set for the duo then?

If we set Beren's initial goal as revenge on Sauron for his father, it's not really a goal he attains. Sauron is still alive and his "exile" is imposed by Luthien rather than himself. Yes, the Quest will be the main drive of the season, but that goal wont kick in until the second or third episode probably. So what would be his overarching goal that spans the season and actually has some resolution? This would more than likely be some internal goal rather than an external one. Avenging his father and then the Silmaril Quest will be his main external goals.

For Luthien it could be even tougher. She doesn't even really seem to have an external goal until the Quest. I think the most compelling internal goal for her (which is also a bit external) is trying to live up to or grow out of the shadows of her parents. This seems impossible, considering her father is the king of Beleriand, and her mother is a goddess. There could be mentions of this early on, including the fact that it is nearly impossible for her, although she does seemingly surpass them both in reputation by the end. Maybe she mentions wanting to be a ruler of some kind, influenced by Galadriel's ambitions. Perhaps early in the season Galadriel visits Doriath and mentions that she and Celeborn intend to leave Beleriand to travel east and establish a kingdom and Luthien is tempted to go with her to establish her own realm. This could culminate in the end by the fact she and Beren essentially set up a mini kingdom in Ossiriand at the end of the story.

Perhaps Berens main goal at the beginning of the story has something to do with the continuing of his family's line, (which I really have no idea where we'd start there) which would culminate with the birth of Dior?

 

[Haerangil]

Yes, I am fine with Thuringwethil being the one who sets the trap of the shade of Eilinel for Gorlim. I do think, though, that Gorlim looks more the traitor if Sauron himself is not personally questioning him. Which is maybe fine, but Thuringwethil getting that confession out of him is going to have a different dynamic. There's a reason Tolkien had Maeglin cave to Morgoth himself rather than any underling in the betrayal of Gondolin. But naturally, Gorlim is a very minor character, and his betrayal here is still a betrayal no matter how it happens. The lure is that he thinks they'll restore his wife to him, but obviously that is a false promise, regardless of who made it. So, it's a fairly minor issue.

The more important issue is that while other characters can send a band of orcs to attack, really only Sauron or his minions would pull off the trap for Gorlim.

But if we do use Thuringwethil for the shade of Eilinel, and if that shade is indeed a hungry houseless spirit of some sort, then we will be showing Thuringwethil dabbling in necromancy immediately at the beginning of this season. Since we've seen her 'take on' the role of manipulating Annael for Sauron, seeing her also be a pupil of necromancy would be a reasonable step for her character to take - she wants to know all of Sauron's secrets, as well.

There are still logistics to work out, though. If the fall of Barahir's band is happening more-or-less at the same time as the fall of Tol Sirion...then Thuringwethil likely can't be in both places any more than Sauron could. And if Thuringwethil is the one manipulating Annael, and if Annael is the one who 'opens the gate' or magically lets in the ghosts or whatnot....then would she have to be present to make that happen? Or does Sauron do it directly himself this time?

Oh i would love it if Berens spirit met the ghosts of Gorlim and Eilinel in Mandos...

 

[Rob Harding]

What kinds of goals/stakes can we set for the duo then?

If we set Beren's initial goal as revenge on Sauron for his father, it's not really a goal he attains. Sauron is still alive and his "exile" is imposed by Luthien rather than himself. Yes, the Quest will be the main drive of the season, but that goal wont kick in until the second or third episode probably. So what would be his overarching goal that spans the season and actually has some resolution? This would more than likely be some internal goal rather than an external one. Avenging his father and then the Silmaril Quest will be his main external goals.

For Luthien it could be even tougher. She doesn't even really seem to have an external goal until the Quest. I think the most compelling internal goal for her (which is also a bit external) is trying to live up to or grow out of the shadows of her parents. This seems impossible, considering her father is the king of Beleriand, and her mother is a goddess. There could be mentions of this early on, including the fact that it is nearly impossible for her, although she does seemingly surpass them both in reputation by the end. Maybe she mentions wanting to be a ruler of some kind, influenced by Galadriel's ambitions. Perhaps early in the season Galadriel visits Doriath and mentions that she and Celeborn intend to leave Beleriand to travel east and establish a kingdom and Luthien is tempted to go with her to establish her own realm. This could culminate in the end by the fact she and Beren essentially set up a mini kingdom in Ossiriand at the end of the story.

Perhaps Berens main goal at the beginning of the story has something to do with the continuing of his family's line, (which I really have no idea where we'd start there) which would culminate with the birth of Dior?

Love thinking down these lines. I’ve mapped out thoughts I’ve personally had in a few other places but let me collect ideas in the format I use for script writing. I’ll put it all together soon.

I do think one way of making Luthien’s story tie to the primary story is to have a tiny band of survivors from Tol Sirion wander to Doriath’s borders. You can have this really be a time of Thingol doubling down on isolationism and not even welcoming refugees. Luthien learns of them and wants to help (she is a healer) but the reason they are there is being covered up - nobody wants to talk about dark forces in the world beyond their lands. Menegroth is safe snd that’s all that matters. Luthien has the long view that it won’t stay safe if darkness spreads - nor if they become the kind of lane that turns away those in need of aid. So she sneaks out at night and aids them. She brings them into the forest. Maybe even or a track them to the borders and she repels them against express orders. Or she sees a troop of guards heading for the survivors to threaten them and drive them out. So we see what she is willing to do to help others but also that she wants to see the outside world snd fight of darkness. Her external action goal is to be out there in the world helping it as she helped Menegroth. So when Beren arrives, as she says farewell to those she helped, we know she is a safe haven. But also know why she will keep him secret. Maybe rather than explicitly wanting her own kingdom, we can show she has grown disillusioned with Menegroth under her father’s isolationism regime. She wishes there were a genuine safe haven, not just for the handpicked few. Need to keep highlighting her as being about refuge and healing.

I definitely think we should find Melian encouraging Luthien to find her own path. She shouldn’t openly contravene Thingol, i think they present a united front, safe snd solid leadership. But in private, she hints that Luthien can make her own choices. She did. I think Luthien needs to know Melian is someone she can go to for guidance regarding Beren, after all, her mother also married ‘beneath her’. Melian I think should also encourage her to not be bound by Menegroth, by what people expect of her. I think a major pressure on Luthien could be her own expectation of belonging to her people. Even to eye point that when Beren goes on a likely suicide mission for a silmaril, she feels compelled to stay and heal divisions. I think Melian should encourage her that her voice isn’t just to heal, she can undo darkness and build new worlds. She is more than just what her people or her father require of her.

Action goal - help the outside world. Emotional need - allow herself to be more than her people’s healer. The drama comes from those things clashing.

For Beren I think it’s the initial action goal of vengeance - which can cool and he can convince himself he doesn’t need after Gorgol’s death, but should still later rear it’s ugly head as it should clash with an emotional need for family and belonging. All he’s ever wanted is real family. You can even build in that maybe his relationship with Barahir was frayed somewhat. In Luthien he finds the hope of family. But then the trials they go through put that happy ending further away. And the ultimate threat to it is his goal for vengeance. He must sacrifice that to achieve his need.

 

[Odola]

In other words, I do think it very important that Lúthien feature in the first episode, doing whatever she is doing in Doriath, and the audience should anticipate her having a significant role this season....but...we don't need to invent some villainous plot just to make her scenes more exciting. We should see what she's up to, what her opinion is on current world affairs, who she spends her time with, etc.

E.g. trying out how the new strange dwarvish device - the spinning wheel - works, while no other around her shares her curiousity and her bewilderment about mortal creatures' obsession with time saving and them placing efficiency over artistry, maybe? This could be the first moment when Luthien realises that "time is limited", that it is a resource that has to be valued and "spend well".
And I do think Luthien's perspective goes farther than just local politics. Imho she thinks in cosmic dimensions - is interested in greater matters - like: what does it actually mean to be a force for good? What are life and death actually? What is time and how ho use it well? What is being in Arda for and what lies beyondl? What is worth both living and dying for? Etc. etc. Metaphysical stuff that a half-Ainu would find interesting.

 

[Rob Harding]

E.g. trying out how the new strange dwarvish device - the spinning wheel - works, while no other around her shares her curiousity and her bewilderment about mortal creatures' obsession with time saving and them placing efficiency over artistry, maybe? This could be the first moment when Luthien realises that "time is limited", that it is a resource that has to be valued and "spend well".
And I do think Luthien's perspective goes farther than just local politics. Imho she thinks in cosmic dimensions - is interested in greater matters - like: what does it actually mean to be a force for good? What are life and death actually? What is time and how ho use it well? What is being in Arda for and what lies beyondl? What is worth both living and dying for? Etc. etc. Methaphisical stuff that a half-Ainu would find interesting.

Agree totally on those later points. I think that final question is hugely central. We then need to think how we visually represent her having those questions. I do think having her stand up for outsiders prior to Beren sets up her goals. An alternative option is possibly that she ISNT standing up for outsiders snd bows to familial snd national need and THEN Beren comes and is her catalyst to question all that

 

[Odola]

Agree totally on those later points. I think that final question is hugely central. How can we visually represent that?

If you go with healer and the reafugee angle, maybe there could be a grand-father figure who has a toddler on his arms whom he protects and after being rescued he dies happily consoling Luthien grieving at being unable to help him anymore that he is content, that he has lived his life already and is happy to be able to sacifice what's left of it for his grand-child to have a chance to live his/hers? There was a statement in Tolkien somewhere that elves are amazed at humans - having that little of life as they do have - willing to sacrifice that little bit for something they consider greater than themselves so readily. Maybe this is the first time she encounters such an attitude?

 

[Rob Harding]

If you go with healer and the reafugee angle, maybe there could be a grand-father figure who has a toddler on his arms whom he protects and after being rescued he dies happily consoling Luthien grieving at being unable to help him anymore that he is content, that he has lived his life already and is happy to be able to sacifice what's left of it for his grand-child to have a chance to live his/hers? There was a statement in Tolkien somewhere that elves are amazed at humans - having that little of life as they do have - willing to sacrifice that little bit for something they consider greater than themselves so readily. Maybe this is the first time she encounters such an attitude?

Funnily enough, very close to what I was thinking lol

 

[Odola]

Funnily enough, very close to what I was thinking lol

This would be a set up of the life and death theme, for sure. If one feels especially cruel one could even make that child perish as a consequence of Thingol's order to expel the refugees - which would cause a break of trust between father and daughter for sure - at least from her side.

But I myself am not convinced of Luthien's having so much experience with humanity already before meeting Beren. I would need to be convinced that the gain outweighs to loss of having Beren be the first and only human that she really meets.

 

[Rob Harding]

This would be a set up of the life and death theme. If one feels especially cruels one could even make that child prerish as a consequence of Thingol's order to expel the refugees - which would cause a break of trust between father and daughter for sure - at least from her side.

But I myself am not convinced of Luthien's having so much experience with humanity already before meeting Beren. I would need to be convinced that the gain outweighs to loss of having Beran be the first and only human that she really meets.

She could remain mystified by these humans but intrigued. Their actions are strange and she doesn’t fully comprehend the lessons they try to teach. She’s not even sure she wants to interact with others after them. She finds them interesting but possibly dangerous in that they interrupt her worldview. She could almost be ‘over’ them, in her words. But the audience sees they’ve got under her skin. Then, bam, Beren

 

[Odola]

She could remain mystified by these humans but intrigued. Their actions are strange and she doesn’t fully comprehend the lessons they try to teach. She’s not even sure she wants to interact with others after them. She finds them interesting but possibly dangerous in that they interrupt her worldview. She could almost be ‘over’ them, in her words. But the audience sees they’ve got under her skin. Then, bam, Beren

Could work. This semi-suppressed process started by that strange bewildering encounter might be then get reawaken in a far more safe philosophically-technical question of having the strange unexpected not-really-wanted dwarven present waiting there in the hall unclaimed by anybody after her return thus allowing her a way to ponder those questions in a - in her circumstances- far more politically-correct way, in the safety of her own room, having Melian keeping walking in as Luthien ties to figure out how this thing works and why anybody would consider it worthwhile to invent such a machine in the first place - when a spindle works just good enough and allows so much more artistic and locomotional freedom - giving her advice and explaining to her some technical Ainu basics about time, death and such stuff (which we actually do not need to hear - the discussion can fade off into the background before it gets too technical for us to follow, hearing just enough of it for us to get that Melian gives her to understand that there are more approaches and viewpoints and experiences out there, equally valid ones, than just the elvish one that Luthien knows of so far).

So that when Luthien meets Beren she is semi-prepared, she has a framework within she can place him into, and can continue her "science project" of "getting to the bottom of this time and live issue".

This way, later, when Luthien's sends the message from her treehouse prison out to have Melian send her the spinning wheel it is a clue that both Melian and the audience understand - Luthien is joining the action, she starts using time in a mortal manner - not just to enhance existing beauty or to express oneself artistically - but to "get things done".

 

[Rob Harding]

I think her standing around muting questions and staring at an object works if we keep cutting back to the wolf rough and ready, orc battling Beren for contrast and to give a jarring dichotomy of these two characters. Not sure it works in isolation but useful as contrast

 

[Odola]

I think her standing around muting questions and staring at an object works if we keep cutting back to the wolf rough and ready, orc battling Beren for contrast and to give a jarring dichotomy of these two characters. Not sure it works in isolation but useful as contrast

I thought on her being more hands-on with the wheel. Not just standing there. Sitting down, lifting parts of it, trying to figure out which part moves which, and so on. But still there could be a contrast there. An intelectual battle with an urgent question is no less interesting than a physical one if played properly. But we have moved far from Sauron and Thuringwethil.

 

[Rob Harding]

Backstory*: Generally a single incident that shapes their status quo. This could be established in an opening scene/flashback/revealed in dialogue or implied by where we find them. It presents a problem, but not a problem the character is likely to act on without an external force as this is the established status quo. Depending if you are telling a happy ending story or not, this could be reversed as the character is transformed by the end. (Elsa stays within her room, afraid of her power in Frozen/David Dunn's marriage is on the rocks in Unbreakable)
Wound: What pain do they carry and why (Luke Skywalker not knowing his place in the universe, Jessie the Cowgirl being left on the swing in the park)
Flaw: What is their main weakness (Indy's fear of snakes, Woody's insecurity about being Andy's favourite toy)
Emotional Goal: This is something your character wants internally, it may well be at odds with other goals. Whether it is or isn't can add drama, it could be in conflict to your action goal or one could depend on the other (Meg Ryan's Sally wants to find true love, Elastigirl wants to keep her family together)
Action Goal: This is the MacGuffin, the job that needs doing (In Twins, Danny DeVito's character needs $20k, Flick needs to find warriors to fight of the Hopper and his gang)
Need: What problem does the character have that must be overcome (Sally needs to stop looking for perfection, Elastigirl needs to let her family be who they are meant to be, Danny DeVito in Twins needs to overcome his wound of abandonment and stop being cynical. I'm having trouble pinning down Flick's need. I almost said, needs to prove himself, but really that is an emotional goal. He needs to stop lying? That is more an choice he makes that adds tension and drama, but it is not a deep rooted internal need? He needs to be valued, is what it comes down to I think. And therefore, his emotional goal to achieve that value, is to prove himself. He also has the action goal of getting warriors to save the village, and you can see how that plays into his emotional goal of wanting to prove himself. But his wound of being belittled by his colony actually hampers his action and emotional goals as he has not found warriors (because his flaw is that he is basically a screw-up). So has to lie to it in an attempt to satisfy his need. Okay, well, that all leads me on to
How Emotional Goal Impacts Need:
How Action Goal Impacts Need:
How Flaw Impacts Need:
How Flaw Impacts Emotional Goal:
How Flaw Impacts Action Goal:
How Wound Impacts Need:
Strength/Why Do We Like Them: (Leia is feisty, Joey Tribianni is a wiseguy with a heart of gold)
Who Do They Think They Are: Harry Potter thinks he's an unloved orphan/Andy Dufresne thinks he is an innocent man
Who Are They Actually: Harry Potter is secretly a hero/Andy Dufresne IS an innocent man (sometimes your protagonist can know exactly who they are and proving it to others is part of the goal)
Quirks And Idiosyncrasies:
What Is The Worst Thing That Could Happen To Them: If this isn't the big event that starts your story, then fear of it should be.

To get back on topic then but using some of what has been discussed, I still maintain that this^ is a really useful tool and something we should look at for Sauron and Thuringwethil. I think it’d be useful to start from this kind of framework during the episode discussion also.

 

[Haerangil]

Luthien toying around with her new spinning wheel and the elves being annoyed by its noise would be so funny! I avtually wondsr if elven magic could oppress noise... like a defenseshield.

That refugees idea.. doesn't convince me yet.But i'd see what you make of it if you do it.

 

[Odola]

Luthien toying around with her new spinning wheel and the elves being annoyed by its noise would be so funny! I avtually wondsr if elven magic could oppress noise... like a defenseshield.

It is an industrial, repetitive sound which anticipates (in a small degree) the future sounds of factory machinery or even a future steam locomotive. So elves, and especially wood elves might have a strong distaste for it for sure. A full spinning wheel is after all, a true machine, the way a sewing machine is one, too.

 

[Rob Harding]

Luthien toying around with her new spinning wheel and the elves being annoyed by its noise would be so funny! I avtually wondsr if elven magic could oppress noise... like a defenseshield.

That refugees idea.. doesn't convince me yet.But i'd see what you make of it if you do it.

Doesn't need to be that per se. But something that connects her to the world. A story thread that keeps her going. She needs a dog and trumpet - something that makes us like her and a skill we see she has that we know will be a strength later in the story.

 

[Haerangil]

A dog? Would't that be a possible competitor to huan? She should have magical faury-nightingales she talks to i think! A trumoet also is a loud instrument if War, nothing i'd cennect to Luthien... she sings to Daeron's fluteplay... and her voice is a powerful magic!

 

[Octoburn]

A dog? Would't that be a possible competitor to huan? She should have magical faury-nightingales she talks to i think! A trumoet also is a loud instrument if War, nothing i'd cennect to Luthien... she sings to Daeron's fluteplay... and her voice is a powerful magic!

 

[MithLuin]

I believe, as Octoburn has so succinctly pointed out, that Rob was speaking metaphorically. A character who has a pet dog is immediately more likeable than the same character without one, so showing the audience 'they have a pet dog' makes the audience like them better than they would have otherwise. Lúthien, who in fact will obtain a pet dog this season, should have personal traits the audience likes about her, before she meets Beren. In her case, more of the playful song and dance stuff than any pets - again, building on what we have seen of her thus far.

...but we will get to Lúthien further down the road. For the next two weeks, our focus is on Sauron and Thuringwethil. The starting point for Sauron we've established at this point: he is very dissatisfied with Morgoth's insufficient demonstration of power, he has developed a new interest in applying his necromancy skills to the spirits of dead elves, he wants to strike out on his own and conquer Beleriand on his terms, etc. We do have to discuss more about how that will play out over the course of the season, and nail down his character arc.

For Thuringwethil, we know how we've used her so far, and we know she is going to die this season, but we have not yet determined what her story this season will be. We've had some suggestions. She can break with Sauron, lose confidence in him for some reason. She can be working more independently, showing the great trust he has in her. She could be dabbling in the mind control (like with Annael) and the necromancy (especially if she is behind the 'shade of Eilinel'). She could have a role in the taking of Tol Sirion, and be involved in the plans for the conquest of Beleriand (which do not come to fruition...so they can be as ambitious as we would like them to be!) If there is an attack on Doriath, she could play some role in that. Corey Olsen made it clear that he wants to figure out what her story is before choosing the manner of her death.

 

[Haerangil]

Allright there you can see i am clearly not a native speaker !