Session 6-03: Sauron and Thuringwethil

Odola

Well-Known Member
Could Thuringwethil supply Sauron with something to make Necromancy viable. Could there even be lore books in Tol Sirion, perhaps a secondary personal reason for taking it. Maybe Thuringwethil seeks is put and assassinates its keeper as Sauron oversees the main assault. She is the reason he can reach these heights of power. Worse then perhaps if we do go with the idea of him then rejecting her further advice.
But why should Tol Sirion have such books? Why would any Noldo be interested in such knowledge?
 
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Rob Harding

Active Member
But why should Tol Sirion have such books? Why would any Noldo be interested in such knowledge?
I more meant some element that solves a problem for him. A missing piece. Of course it wouldn’t be intended for Sauron’s sort of purposes. Perhaps he needs to further understand elvish fea and knows elves are the ones to have this. Perhaps missives, papers, texts etc are being shared and happen to be at Tol Sirion at this points. Regardless, I feel tying these things together would be prudent. And add a personal reason for capturing Tol Sirion.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I doubt anything about elven fear that sauron wouldn't know would be written in a Book the noldor would have.Sounds wrong on so many levels.

Sauron is an experimental scientist, he'd try out things.What would the Noldor know? Religious-philosophical teachings the Ainur gave to them...
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
I doubt anything about elven fear that sauron wouldn't know would be written in a Book the noldor would have.Sounds wrong on so many levels.

Sauron is an experimental scientist, he'd try out things.What would the Noldor know? Religious-philosophical teachings the Ainur gave to them...
Yeah it’s not perfect but I think there needs to be a personal reason. I just think if we are going to introduce the idea of necromancy and him taking a stronghold then it makes sense to tie them together. But you also want a clear ‘why here and now’ beyond ‘it’s a good strategic location for Morgoth’ or however that summary was phrased. Tie it together to give the clear purpose and foreshadow what is to come
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I doubt anything about elven fear that sauron wouldn't know would be written in a Book the noldor would have.Sounds wrong on so many levels.

Sauron is an experimental scientist, he'd try out things.What would the Noldor know? Religious-philosophical teachings the Ainur gave to them...
What Vala did Thuringwethil originally belonged to? If she was originally a pupil of Námo (Mandos), then her being involved in the ghost project would make sense. If she (under assumed identity) had invited a Noldo from Tol Sirion - whose family membes have died/fallen and refused the call to Mandos and this Noldo is terribly worried about their fate - and she is offering to help him/her to ensure his/her family fëar's safety by teaching him/her some spells and this is the entry point for Sauron to gain power over those fëar in the first place? And then Sauron takes over the project, just like Melkor took over the orcs from him, and Thuringwethil is "not amused" about that?
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
What Vala did Thuringwethil originally belonged to? If she was originally a pupil of Námo (Mandos), then her being involved in the ghost project would make sense. If she (under assumed identity) had invited a Noldo from Tol Sirion - whose family membes have died/fallen and refused the call to Mandos and this Noldo is terribly worried about their fate - and she is offering to help him/her to ensure his/her family fëar's safety by teaching him/her some spells and this is the entry point for Sauron to gain power over those fëar in the first place? And then Sauron takes over the project, just like Melkor took over the orcs from him, and Thuringwethil is "not amused" about that?
I like this in essence though I do think the taking of Tol Sirion really needs to be a montage orteaser before credits as there is no way of having it run alongside our protagonists stories and so we need to hurry up and get to them
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I like this in essence though I do think the taking of Tol Sirion really needs to be a montage orteaser before credits as there is no way of having it run alongside our protagonists stories and so we need to hurry up and get to them
Having Thuringwethil murr under her breath about it when tracking e.g. Beren should be enough, I would think? Add to this others around her wondering and explaining to themselves why she is so ill-disposed of late, and we are done.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
Having Thuringwethil murr under her breath about it when tracking e.g. Beren should be enough, I would think? Add to this others around her wondering and explaining to themselves why she is so ill-disposed of late, and we are done.
But really you want to show not tell. Visuals trump exposition generally. I think we could have a really punchy opener with a big siege/invasion snd it be quick and dramatic and have real ties to the season story rather than only being set up for Sauron’s new status quo. Then slam straight into our protagonists in their normal lives before they are called to adventure
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
But really you want to show not tell. Visuals trump exposition generally. I think we could have a really punchy opener with a big siege/invasion snd it be quick and dramatic and have real ties to the season story rather than only being set up for Sauron’s new status quo. Then slam straight into our protagonists in their normal lives before they are called to adventure
Annael's betrayal, Thuringwethil's involvement, Saurons new project and estrangement both from his boss and his "right hand" and a big siege fast and making sense in a few minutes? Eating a cake and having it, anyone?
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
I honestly don't think you need most of that. You need to boil down to what this season is. Beren and Luthien. If you take too much time away from that, if you don't get to them in the first ten pages, it really isn't hitting the way it needs to. I think Corey and the gang need to work out what is vital from that story and have the taking of Tol Sirion probably as your dramatic opening. As it can't really go after meeting Beren and Luthien. Whether you can have other events go alongside Beren and Luthien dealing with family before a call to adventure at the end of the first episode - that's possible. It would mean you could have maybe Gorlim storyline's play out and Sauron's new project at the same time if you fudge storylines perhaps. And then end with the massacre of Barahir and his outlaws and Luthien stepping out of her role in some way. But frankly, it makes for a dull episode if they only start doing anything at the end. In the first ten pages you really want to have established your protagonists and their goals. You need to tell audiences what this story is. If all that time is dedicated to other characters, it really doesn't invest us in Beren and Luthien. It's just a writing thing. Yeah, we may have to kill some darlings to make the story work. I don't think we need to be beholden to the text. I think we've agreed Gorlim doesn't necessarily need to be a wraith. I don't think you even need dialogue in a scene of him seeing his wife. Have him be chased by a shadow above him. Have him collapse and look up and see the ghost of his wife. Have her vanish. He turns and sees Thuringwethil. He pleads at her feet. She smiles at him. He whispers in her ear. The ghost of his wife appears. He holds her as she vanishes like mist and Thuringwethil kills him. Simple, streamlined. Something like that tells the story without needing to take up anymore than maybe a single page. It's that efficiency we need to go for to fit all the elements in and have each punch hard and be memorable and not cluttered/
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I honestly don't think you need most of that. You need to boil down to what this season is. Beren and Luthien. If you take too much time away from that, if you don't get to them in the first ten pages, it really isn't hitting the way it needs to. I think Corey and the gang need to work out what is vital from that story and have the taking of Tol Sirion probably as your dramatic opening. As it can't really go after meeting Beren and Luthien. Whether you can have other events go alongside Beren and Luthien dealing with family before a call to adventure at the end of the first episode - that's possible. It would mean you could have maybe Gorlim storyline's play out and Sauron's new project at the same time if you fudge storylines perhaps. And then end with the massacre of Barahir and his outlaws and Luthien stepping out of her role in some way. But frankly, it makes for a dull episode if they only start doing anything at the end. In the first ten pages you really want to have established your protagonists and their goals. You need to tell audiences what this story is. If all that time is dedicated to other characters, it really doesn't invest us in Beren and Luthien. It's just a writing thing. Yeah, we may have to kill some darlings to make the story work. I don't think we need to be beholden to the text. I think we've agreed Gorlim doesn't necessarily need to be a wraith. I don't think you even need dialogue in a scene of him seeing his wife. Have him be chased by a shadow above him. Have him collapse and look up and see the ghost of his wife. Have her vanish. He turns and sees Thuringwethil. He pleads at her feet. She smiles at him. He whispers in her ear. The ghost of his wife appears. He holds her as she vanishes like mist and Thuringwethil kills him. Simple, streamlined. Something like that tells the story without needing to take up anymore than maybe a single page. It's that efficiency we need to go for to fit all the elements in and have each punch hard and be memorable and not cluttered/
So you would consider the whole thread here actually redundant?
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
So you would consider the whole thread here actually redundant?
umm…no? Definitely not. I’ve contributed lots of ideas to how I believe the enemies storylines can progress. But I do think we shouldn’t disregard good storytelling practice just to include lots of additional scenes up front. You need to get to the main story early. You set up your enemies goals and desires early too. But they aren’t the protagonists of this season. Set them up, make it clear and they are then nicely established so you can get to the main story with the enemies in the background, ready to emerge. I think a lot of conversation on details are interesting but you also need to make it tight and have good pacing. That’s all I’m saying. As lots of the conversation has shifted toward establishing scenes. If we can mail those act 1 questions then we can really nail them clearly in act 3
 
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Kathrin

Well-Known Member
I agree with Rob, about centering stuff around Beren & Luthien. I don't think that all parts of the season have to be connected to each other, but all to them. For example i think the idea of the spirits is very interesting for Tol Sirion, because it is Sauron using Necromancy as a tool where his other tactics have failed. But I don't think the spirits have anything to do with Thuringwethil, I think her story has to do with her motives, her connection to Sauron, and her getting hunted down/confronted by Luthien in some way. We are doing lots of loose brainstorming with lots of those threads next to each other, but that also means there's a danger of them all getting tangled up into a big ball of plot-yarn xD
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
But I don't think the spirits have anything to do with Thuringwethil, I think her story has to do with her motives, her connection to Sauron, and her getting hunted down/confronted by Luthien in some way.
Actually this was how I felt at the beginning. I failed to see any connection between the spirits' plot and Thuringwethil. But actually connecting her to them saves us both time and scenes. Her other motives and own plots would also need additional explanations and as such additional scenes and time diverted from the main plot. If we are going to show the spirits plot anyway, having her included in this plot actually saves us extra scenes and time.
 
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Rob Harding

Active Member
I agree with Rob, about centering stuff around Beren & Luthien. I don't think that all parts of the season have to be connected to each other, but all to them. For example i think the idea of the spirits is very interesting for Tol Sirion, because it is Sauron using Necromancy as a tool where his other tactics have failed. But I don't think the spirits have anything to do with Thuringwethil, I think her story has to do with her motives, her connection to Sauron, and her getting hunted down/confronted by Luthien in some way. We are doing lots of loose brainstorming with lots of those threads next to each other, but that also means there's a danger of them all getting tangled up into a big ball of plot-yarn xD
This. I honestly don't think the big questions have been asked of what these season is about. We are getting stuck into the wrong characters first and the wrong questions. I'm a bit confused why the sessions didn't start with Beren and Luthien as we know they are the protagonists and ironing out what their journeys will be. I don't mean physically across Beleriand but within themselves and each other. I think if this was the clear anchor, a lot of these other chats wouldn't be able to wander as far as they are. We can't really make decisions about how much screen time we give Thuringwethil until we what portions we have for her that don't distract from the central narrative.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I'm a bit confused why the sessions didn't start with Beren and Luthien as we know they are the protagonists and ironing out what their journeys will be.
As far I've understood this was the Tolkien Professor's own decission? We actually had to put a lot of effort to keep ourselves from discussing B&L even here, as this would be the natural inclination. I suppose this is to make sure they do not overshadow anything else?
 
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Rob Harding

Active Member
As far I've understood this was the Tolkien Professor's own decission? We actually had to put a lot of efford to keep ourselves from discussing B&L even here, as this would be the natural inclination. I suppose this is to make sure they do not overshadow anything else?
I just feel it's a little cart before horse. All that said, I am sure when we do get to them a lot of these discussions will become easier.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
What Vala did Thuringwethil originally belonged to? If she was originally a pupil of Námo (Mandos), then her being involved in the ghost project would make sense. If she (under assumed identity) had invited a Noldo from Tol Sirion - whose family membes have died/fallen and refused the call to Mandos and this Noldo is terribly worried about their fate - and she is offering to help him/her to ensure his/her family fëar's safety by teaching him/her some spells and this is the entry point for Sauron to gain power over those fëar in the first place? And then Sauron takes over the project, just like Melkor took over the orcs from him, and Thuringwethil is "not amused" about that?
I kinda always thought she may have been from Nienna's folk, butbthat of course is pure headcanon.I do not think the silmfilm project ever devided the issue either.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Actually this was how I felt at the beginning. I failed to see any connection between the spirits' plot and Thuringwethil. But actually connecting her to them saves us both time and scenes. Her other motives and own plots would also need additional explanations and as such additional scenes and time diverted from the main plot. If we are going to show the spirits plot anyway, having her included in this plot actually saves us extra scenes and time.
I don't even think that has to be explained too much.I often feel at odds with many modern tv shows having a tendency to explain and show too much...

A few evocative graphic scenes may often be sufficient, even better as it leaves out more imagination to the viewer. I totally have zero problem with Sauron just stalking a battlefield, singing a dark song and spirits starting to rise and follow him and in the next scene sauron actually has a fully fledged host of bodyless he can send to infest Tol Sirion.
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
I kinda always thought she may have been from Nienna's folk, butbthat of course is pure headcanon.I do not think the silmfilm project ever devided the issue either.
Nienna? Interesting and imho quite contraintuitive. How have you come to connect Nienna with bats? Mandos I can see, some fascination with death, night and darkness in Thuringwethil. Even Varda I could see, as a night-creature Thuringwethil might value the far stars more than the sun - and Varda is also known for her good hearing. But Nienna? Could you elaborate?
 
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