Session 6-06: Nargothrond and Doriath

[MithLuin]

Session 6:06 of Silm Film will be held on Thursday Feb. 24th at 10 PM Eastern Time (note that we usually don't get started until 10:20 PM).

Our conversation will begin with a discussion of the Nargothrond storyline, in which we work out the plot of the political machinations of Celegorm and Curufin, as well as the impact on Orodreth and his family.

After we sort out the Nargothrond plot, we will then return to Doriath. We need to discuss Thingol's storyline. We know where it begins (the quest), and where it ends (Lúthien healing his winter), but we have some stuff to work out in the middle. Also, we have to figure out a story for Daeron.

I know Corey Olsen wants to discuss how we'll handle magic this season, but I think he can be persuaded to get to the Beren and Lúthien story after we finish with Nargothrond and Doriath.

 

[Odola]

We need to discuss Thingol's storyline. We know where it begins (the quest), and where it ends (Lúthien healing his winter), but we have some stuff to work out in the middle.

I think it is necessary to soften his jerkness and actively work in some redeeming qualities to show them, like: spontaneously bringing his wife some flowers, making sure Luthien gets her favourite food and all the comforts when she is kept captive in the tree house, maybe even going out into the forest to gather some of her favourite childhood berries himself, showing him plan some relief action for the Green Elves he has taken in, maybe by visiting those displaced familes as a king, listening to their concerns and comforting them personally etc. etc. I also think his fist impulse being him leadeing a search mission himself after Luthien escapes would help a lot, even if he is in the end conviced by his counselors not to do this.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Well, one of my ideas is that while Celegorm and Curufin are fleeing westward, they pick up Orodreth and his family while they're fleeing from Tol Sirion, which might explain their influence on Orodreth during the first few months of his reign as King of Nargothrond.

Curufin's plot to tie Doriath to the rest of the Noldorin realms could be seen as well-intentioned but misguided; yes the Elves must unite against Morgoth to stand a chance, as Maedhros attempts to set up with his Union. On the other hand his attempt to force Lúthien to marry Celegorm due to the latter's lust shows a relatively poor grasp of Elven psychology; Elves choose one partner for life and if Lúthien gave her heart to Beren, she would die before succumbing to rape, which would put Curufin's plan on the ash heap.

 

[Odola]

Curufin's plot to tie Doriath to the rest of the Noldorin realms could be seen as well-intentioned but misguided; yes the Elves must unite against Morgoth to stand a chance, as Maedhros attempts to set up with his Union. On the other hand his attempt to force Lúthien to marry Celegorm due to the latter's lust shows a relatively poor grasp of Elven psychology; Elves choose one partner for life and if Lúthien gave her heart to Beren, she would die before succumbing to rape, which would put Curufin's plan on the ash heap.

That is not sure. If Beren dies (preferably if it seems like an accident), she might marry again - as their own grandfather did. And she is the daughter of a statesman, she might be reasoned with and convinced, she s not immune to logic and argumentation. Rape by force is not technically possible for elves I would assume - an elf would just leave his/her hroa behind as last resort - but I m not sure about by magic and enchantement - but even so attempting to rape a half-Ainu by a mere Child would not work anyway, her magical powers by far exceede theirs.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

That is not sure. If Beren dies (preferably if it seems like an accident), she might marry again - as their own grandfather did. And she is the daughter of a statesman, she might be reasoned with and convinced, she s not immune to logic and argumentation. Rape by force is not technically possible for elves I would assume - an elf would just leave his/her hroa behind as last resort - but I m not sure about by magic and enchantement - but even so attempting to rape a half-Ainu by a mere Child would not work anyway, her magical powers by far exceede theirs.

So you agree with me that the plan looks like rubbish from an Elven psychology standpoint?

 

[Odola]

So you agree with me that the plan looks like rubbish from an Elven psychology standpoint?

To force her, yes. To tempt her with reason and power - no.

Remember that both Finduilas changes the object of her love as does Luthien herself - from Daeron - so that as long as the marriage has not taken place a "change of heart" might still take place. Otherwise Galadriel would not have tried to convince Finrod to marry.
So that the Feanorians might still reasonably hope to convince Luthien to change her choice.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I think it is necessary to soften his jerkness and actively work in some redeeming qualities to show them, like: spontaneously bringing his wife some flowers, making sure Luthien gets her favourite food and all the comforts when she is kept captive in the tree house, maybe even going out into the forest to gather some of her favourite childhood berries himself, showing him plan some relief action for the Green Elves he has taken in, maybe by visiting those displaced familes as a king, listening to their concerns and comforting them personally etc. etc. I also think his fist impulse being him leadeing a search mission himself after Luthien escapes would help a lot, even if he is in the end conviced by his counselors not to do this.

Thus far, our plans coincide with the story as written. Thingol is unjerkified primarily through repentance. He has a change of heart as a result of the events of this season that changes the way he interacts with humans. The lengths he goes to on Turin's behalf is clear evidence of this.

 

[kanji_d]

Thus far, our plans coincide with the story as written. Thingol is unjerkified primarily through repentance. He has a change of heart as a result of the events of this season that changes the way he interacts with humans. The lengths he goes to on Turin's behalf is clear evidence of this.

I agree with this here, and I think it's also important to distinguish jerkiness from pride. Thingol is perhaps the proudest of all the Elves in the Silmarillion save Feanor, and that's a part of his character to the end, when he refuses to give up the Silmaril to the Feanorians. It'll be a balancing act to keep those two sides of his character together, but I think it's absolutely possible.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I agree with this here, and I think it's also important to distinguish jerkiness from pride. Thingol is perhaps the proudest of all the Elves in the Silmarillion save Feanor, and that's a part of his character to the end, when he refuses to give up the Silmaril to the Feanorians. It'll be a balancing act to keep those two sides of his character together, but I think it's absolutely possible.

I thought that was Dior who refused to give up the Silmaril; Thingol was dead by then. Unless it's the Dwarves you're talking about.

 

[kanji_d]

I thought that was Dior who refused to give up the Silmaril; Thingol was dead by then. Unless it's the Dwarves you're talking about.

Was it? There's so much that happens in Of the Ruin of Doriath that it's hard to keep everything straight.

 

[MithLuin]

It would be easy enough to paint Celegorm and Curufin purely as conniving evil villains in the story this season. And certainly their actions are worthy of censure. Huan is going to abandon Celegorm over this. Celebrimbor is going to disown Curufin. The people of Nargothrond are going to exile the brothers. Thingol likely contemplates war over their treatment of Lúthien. So, it isn't like we have to try for a sympathetic reading of their actions.

However. (You knew a however was coming...)

I do think that their actions have to make sense to themselves. Neither brother is setting out to be a troublemaker, to stir up resentment for the fun of it. They have motivations, sure, but more than that, they can convince themselves that their actions are justifiable and the right thing to do. I think that the consequences should be somewhat of a shock to them...it's not like they 'got caught' doing something sneaky - they were pretty open about most of what they did here.

Both brothers have less than innocent motivations, and may not be entirely honest with themselves over that. That's fine. Celegorm thinks Lúthien beautiful and wants to marry her. Is he objectifying her and motivated more by possessiveness than love? Sure. He is someone we've shown as getting along better with animals than people, who is only really close to Curufin (who manages him), and Aredhel, who was his friend. He's never had a romantic interest before, and his infatuation can be genuine here. But that doesn't mean he knows how to handle it or understands Lúthien at all. Curufin is being ambitious throughout the season. He resented Maedhros' direction ever since he recognized Fingolfin as High King (and they were opposed to one another before that). Curufin is unapologetically a Son of Fëanor, but he would also like to be a king, and has been denied that. Meanwhile, Finrod isn't High King, either, but he gets to be king of Nargothrond. Curufin probably does not admit how jealous he is about that. His speech about keeping Nargothrond safe may be genuine, but he wants that crown, too.

So, on to the justifications...

Why did Thingol imprison Lúthien in Hirilorn? Surely it was because he wanted to keep her safe, and was afraid of her intention to go to Angband with Beren. A similar motivation exists for her imprisonment in Nargothrond. It is known that Finrod and Beren are captives of Sauron at Tol Sirion. Lúthien makes it clear that she intends to mount a one woman rescue attempt. What would Thingol think if the people of Nargothrond let her do that? Keeping her safe by keeping her in Nargothrond is really the only prudent option when a king's daughter has such a rash plan. (Celegorm would love her boldness, but not wanting her to get killed is hardly cruel.) While Lúthien is naturally outraged to be locked up, it's not like the people of Nargothrond let her go - so her imprisonment is quite likely viewed as necessary for her own good by people other than Celegorm and Curufin.

Concerning the marriage proposal.... Thingol is the one who named a silmaril as Lúthien's bride-price. There are precisely six people in Middle-earth with a 'legitimate' claim to the silmarils, and Thingol, Beren, and Finrod ain't on that list. Curufin is married. Celegorm, on the other hand, is an eligible bachelor with a claim to a silmaril...who happens to be really taken with Lúthien. If Celegorm had a silmaril, and chose to give it to Thingol, that would not contradict the Oath, which is aimed at people without a claim who keep the silmarils from Fëanor and his sons. By naming a silmaril as Beren's impossible quest, Thingol is guaranteeing the activation of the Oath if it is successful. Do you want Kinslayings? This is how you get Kinslayings. Naturally, Thingol thinks Beren can't succeed. But if he were to do so.... From this perspective, the offer to have Celegorm marry Lúthien is a diplomatic solution to an international incident caused by Thingol of all people announcing a desire for a silmaril. Thingol is unlikely to see it that way, and Lúthien is uninterested in a political marriage. The whole idea is a disaster. . .but maybe Celegorm doesn't think he created this situation.

Just putting this here because the story is told from Lúthien's perspective, so sorting out what other people are up to probably requires a different lens.

 

[Odola]

Thus far, our plans coincide with the story as written. Thingol is unjerkified primarily through repentance. He has a change of heart as a result of the events of this season that changes the way he interacts with humans. The lengths he goes to on Turin's behalf is clear evidence of this.

How does this repentance look like? Just accepting the unavoidable is not repentance but a selfserving action. Luthien has proven herself able to get along fine without him or his kingdom, if Thingol's choice is: "Luthien with Beren or no Luthien at all" Thingol's acceptance of Beren is pure self-interest. So how do we show him repentant? What is his victory? Does his wear sack-cloth and sits down in an ash heap? After returning from the death Luthien moves herself and her own nascent family as far from him and his influence as she can. She seems not to buy it - as such how should the audience?

 

[MithLuin]

As suggested in Thursday night's session, he presides over the wedding of Beren and Lúthien to show his wholehearted acceptance of Beren.

Surely you are familiar with family drama where a family member refuses to attend a wedding because they don't approve of the marriage? Even if the wedding is inevitably happening, despite this disapproval? This is the opposite of that - Beren is being welcomed with open arms now.

 

[Odola]

As suggested in Thursday night's session, he presides over the wedding of Beren and Lúthien to show his wholehearted acceptance of Beren.

Surely you are familiar with family drama where a family member refuses to attend a wedding because they don't approve of the marriage? Even if the wedding is inevitably happening, despite this disapproval? This is the opposite of that - Beren is being welcomed with open arms now.

Yeah, but such a person will be cut contact with by the newlyweds. If someone craves such contact he will not let it come so far.

This is not repentance. This is just accepting the new cicumstances as unavoidable. Thingol does not want to lose Luthien, and as such he accepts her new conditions out of fear of losing her again. This neither makes him less of a jerk nor rehabilitates any of his previous misdeeds. This just proves he is cunning enough to recognise when not to act against his own interest. And does not make him any more attractive for Dior to follow.

 

[MithLuin]

As has been pointed out, Thingol's fostering of Túrin will demonstrate that his repentance and new view of Men is genuine, not merely calculated to maintain his relationship with his daughter.

 

[Odola]

As has been pointed out, Thingol's fostering of Túrin will demonstrate that his repentance and new view of Men is genuine, not merely calculated to maintain his relationship with his daughter.

Hopefully so, still he will not prove himself very wise there in his approach.
Of course, nobody can expect him be an expert in human psychology, but there is a certain hybris there in his assuming as certain that he can pull this off - a certain imperalistic paternalism.
So this attempt is a mixed bag, his intentions are good but his execution ends - admittedly not wholly as his own fault - in a complete desaster.
So Thingol loses this instance too in the end.
Are those two doubtfull "victories" enough to outweight this whole unambigious trackload of jerkdom this season's story loads on his shoulders?

 

[Ilana Mushin]

I wonder if the initial interactions between Celegorm and Luthien could be genuinely friendly. He might feel like he is understood by her. She appreciates his love of living things (which is something she loves about Beren). From his perspective even if she remains in love with Beren for now, he is mortal and so Celegorm might reckon he has a chance once Beren has died even if of old age - and he must think that Beren will not survive captivity at that point anyway. She’s not necessarily going to be getting the full picture of C&C‘s usurping of the rule of Nargothrond.

On the other hand, Luthien would be well aware of the Feanorian involvement in the kin slaying and their status as persona non grata in Doriath so that would counter any initial friendliness at the beginning. Not sure how to get around that, unless Luthien is playing a peacemaker role, or can see how C&C might help her cause (Which I assume at this point is simply to rescue Beren and not to get a Silmaril).

I like the angle Mithluin proposes that he could see himself as a suitable suitor since from his perspective he has a legitimate claim to a Silmaril and can offer it as the bride-price to Thingol for Luthien. I agree that keeping Luthien in Nargothrond can be parallel with what Thingol does ‘for her protection’.

 

[MithLuin]

Out of curiousity, Odola, do you honestly think that bringing his wife flowers will do more to mitigate his flaws this season than reconciling with his daughter and giving Beren and Luthien's marriage his blessing? I have no issue with depicting Thingol as a spontaneously thoughtful husband. I just think that that example is small potatoes compared to the actual character arc we have planned for Thingol this season and am frankly confused by this insistence that his stint as a father who disapproves of his daughter's suitor creates a crisis of his entire legacy. He has time to rethink his actions, and indeed makes a different call in the end. That is the tale in the book, and that is the story we are attempting to tell as well. We have done a lot to set up Thingol in this season ever since we introduced him in the first episode of Season 2. When we presented the Season 4 episode in which he learns of the Kinslaying and declares the Ban, a few observers from the Prancing Pony Podcast complained that Thingol wasn't jerky enough, and that he gave too much weight to Melian's counsel. To which we said...just wait! He's getting there, but he's not there yet. We were establishing a template of how Thingol reacts to bad news, and how he makes his decisions. His behavior in Season 6 should very much feel like it's the same guy from Season 4. But this time, his reaction is stronger. He has time to repent of his choices, and does so when he accepts that the quest is fulfilled...without actually getting a silmaril. I see a lot of bold text, and I recognize that you feel strongly about how Thingol is portrayed, but I am a bit confused as to what part of his 'jerky' behavior this season you feel is out of character for Thingol as written by Tolkien in this story?

 

[Odola]

Out of curiousity, Odola, do you honestly think that bringing his wife flowers will do more to mitigate his flaws this season than reconciling with his daughter and giving Beren and Luthien's marriage his blessing?

We have Thingol acting as a jerk again and again. While accepting finally the fact that Luthien is set on Beren, accepting this fact does nothing to rehablitate his behaviour toward Melian. Small gestures go a long way. Showing that even if he ignores Melian in his professional life - in spite of her great contibution to his success therein - he still deeply cares for her in private makes it understandable why she puts up with it at all. We do not want her to come off as a "bullied wife".

I have no issue with depicting Thingol as a spontaneously thoughtful husband.
I just think that that example is small potatoes compared to the actual character arc we have planned for Thingol this season and am frankly confused by this insistence that his stint as a father who disapproves of his daughter's suitor creates a crisis of his entire legacy.

Small potatoes maybe but still "small gifts preserve friendship"- as it is said [Edit: this is actually an old German saying: "Kleine Geschenke erhalten die Freundschaft"]. It is a small thing we can show to make sure the audience remembers that he still cares for Melian at all.

He has time to rethink his actions, and indeed makes a different call in the end.

But we do not see his thoughts. His actions do not necessary show repentance nor even that he understands what he has done wrong in the first place, why it was wrong and is sorry for it. What we see is that Luthien has proven herself to a degree that he has no other choice but to accept it.

That is the tale in the book, and that is the story we are attempting to tell as well.

True, but from the summary perspective the book it told we do not see his detailed motivation at all. We mostly follow the actions there, but not character development. As such it the book can aford to let much more things vague and unexplained that our much nearer perspective does not. It is like the difference between the Hobbit and TLOTR books. The "detailed resolution" is completely different in both styles of story.

We have done a lot to set up Thingol in this season ever since we introduced him in the first episode of Season 2. When we presented the Season 4 episode in which he learns of the Kinslaying and declares the Ban, a few observers from the Prancing Pony Podcast complained that Thingol wasn't jerky enough, and that he gave too much weight to Melian's counsel. To which we said...just wait! He's getting there, but he's not there yet.

Thingol is a mixed bag but he has to stay mixed. He cann lose his balance to either side. For all his faults he has to be and stay one of the greatest elven king ever. In this season, as the sory demands him to be a jerk a lot imho we must take concious efforts to prevent the audience losing their respect for him. If they dismiss him as a jerk just with more power than he deserves and is emotionally done with him neither his death will have much impact nor is Dior's story at all understandable. Yes, Dior's life is short - he lives for ca. 40 years only and rules only 3. But still, even if he feels like a placeholder, he is the pivotal point for the whole Peredhil plotline. And - as I stated before - if we do not get Thingol right we are completely unable to get Dior right, and in the longe run - even our beloved Elrond. "Actions have consequences" - some very far-reaching ones.

We were establishing a template of how Thingol reacts to bad news, and how he makes his decisions. His behavior in Season 6 should very much feel like it's the same guy from Season 4. But this time, his reaction is stronger.

Yes. Still the audiance has to see and be reminded off that Thingol is a big deal still, a powerfull, wise, comitted elvish king, who admittedly does gets overpowered by his emotions at times and does unwise things which can have grave consequences, but he still remains loving towards his wife, daughter and people.

He has time to repent of his choices, and does so when he accepts that the quest is fulfilled...without actually getting a silmaril.

Do we see that repentance? How? We cannot see his thoughts. His later action do not prove him having learned much beyond "Luthien is not a little girl anymore, I have to pay her some respect" but this does not seem to be extend as much as even to include Melian.

I see a lot of bold text, and I recognize that you feel strongly about how Thingol is portrayed, but I am a bit confused as to what part of his 'jerky' behavior this season you feel is out of character for Thingol as written by Tolkien in this story?

When I tend to write a long passage I bold some parts to make sure the main pointI am making is easily found by a casual reader. If that bothers you, I can refrain from that.

As The Tolkien Professor said - we must try to avoid to make Thingol a caricature of an elvish king. If we do that, the audience will be disgusted by him. How then can be it understandable why Dior chooses to pick up his mantle later?

As many women reject being reduced to their role as wives and mothers only so reducing Thingol to just being Luthien's failing father - even if important for this particular part of the story that we tell this season - loses the sight of the big pictue - the important role he plays in the story as a whole. And this role of his should still remain possible for him to play. And he cannot do that if the audience loses their respect for him in this story. There is no way for him to really recover his reputation and good standing with the audience from such a blow in future plotlines - even in the Turin one, where his good intentions stay consistently fruitless and ineffective. So we should take care the audience never completely loses their respect for him in this one in the first place.

The removal of the Doriath attack form the B&L removes exactly that element from the story - it removes the reminder to the audience that Thingol is a competent, valiant, brave and effective elvish king. If we remove that, we have to make up for it otherwise - to keep his character in balance.

 

[MithLuin]

I agree that the audience should not view Thingol as simply a racist jerk who is overbearing towards his daughter. I don't think anyone intended to portray him that way in this season, so we are agreed there. We want to take him on a character arc that begins with hotheaded rash decisions but becomes more wise over the course of the season. I do not see an attack by orcs on Doriath as being relevant to this discussion of Thingol's status, but regardless, we are not including that element of the story in Silm Film. So, yes, the balance to his character will come from other directions.

I do not mind bold text. I occasionally find it helpful to use bold or italics to differentiate things or add emphasis. But it is probably good to keep in mind that some people read bold text as yelling. When there is a significant amount of bold text in a post, I presume that there is strong emotion as well. I do not wish to dismiss something that someone feels strongly about, but felt the need to explain that I did not really understand the connection you were trying to make.