Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Wait, I thought Daeron betrayed a second time before she was kept captive as a preventive measure (and why she was locked up).
Session 6-06: Nargothrond and Doriath
- Thread starter MithLuin
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Odola
Well-Known Member
A far I do remember Daeron changed his stance while she was held captive?
As for him reporting her plan to leave Doriath, I assume he supposed Thingol would talk her out of it and not imprison her.
Why she asked him for help before he reported her the second time when he had just reported her before? Before she did something against the rules - she concealed the violation of Doriath's borders by a forbidden intruder. Now she just wanted to help a friend and suitor she assumed in need - so no wrongdoing here.
What if Celegorm and Curufin have gone through Nan Dungortheb and come out completely ptsd (from the battle and nan dungortheb) and maybe they're chased by sth too? which drives them around the borders of doriath that also shuns them and then south? And I figure nargothrond would've had have messengers and maybe supply routes up sirion to tol sirion and they run into them? Or am I confusing some silm film/other chronology again?
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Sth?
I think this is the point where Orodreth needs to be (not too obviously) set up for what happens after B&L. His dynamic with Nargothrond, Finrod and also the Feanorians to some point, and his relationship with his kids and them too, that should be clear before B&L starts proper, I think. Especially since the fall of minas tirith is gonna involve him too, and it's gonna be pretty fast, and after we won't have much time for him till post quest. I feel like it would make sense to have Nargothrond and Doriath still firmly in post-bragollach mode in the beginning, so they basically still are in a "licking wounds and re-grouping" plot that then gets interrupted/confronted with B&L. Since in terms of elven kingdoms, B&L does mostly keep to the Dorthonion/Minas Tirith/Nargothrond/Doriath area, I think it makes sense to start the season maybe giving a quick look over Beleriand but then zooming in and focussing on them and how that area works rn. That would also avoid everyone basically looking like extras awkwardly waiting on the stage till B&L enter, and gives some denouement to the S5 finale. Didn't we also plan to put a small Nauglamir-plot at the beginning of S6 or am i mixing stuff up? (edit, just listened to ep.5 and it came up, nvm)
Maybe Doriath & Nargothrond are also communicating about what happened & what to do? Since they do have similar but still very distinctly different attitudes about the war and how it went/what they should have done. Maybe Finrod is communicating with Thingol (& maybe parallely covertly with Galadriel) to try find out how to deal with the new status quo, after all the position of the Arafinweans has gotten much more uncomfortable and Thingol is still refusing to adapt to that because in his view, he has basically been confirmed in his stance he took after the Dagor Aglareb, to not go out again.
(Speaking of Thingol, I agree with the ppl who said before that his redemption needs to come through the regret and change after B&L. Right now he doesn't have any reason to change, in his mind he's just been proven right another time, and Melian isn't yet in full prophecy mode, she's still trying to not influence the elves too much and just passively protect).
(Also, do we set up a big daeron plot and how do we not make it super annoying)
And also while i am interested very much in these points, we will have to talk about the magic and the "special effects" at some point. Maybe this could also be part of a "concept art/art department" episode? Like, in a real series, you might have your art department find visuals, in collaboration with the writing team trying to iron out the narrative use and place of the magic.
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As I mentioned in the other thread, let's continue the discussion of Thingol, Doriath, and Daeron in this thread, so it will be easier to see how the conversation has developed.
For the conversation about how to depict Magic, please go here:
[My organizational style defaults to 'extremely chaotic', so I typically do not rearrange threads here very much. I thought in this case, it was warranted to avoid losing discussions, or talking about too many different topics on a thread. My apologies if this feels intrusive.]
For the conversation about how to depict Magic, please go here:
Magic in Season 6
And also while i am interested very much in these points, we will have to talk about the magic and the "special effects" at some point. Maybe this could also be part of a "concept art/art department" episode? Like, in a real series, you might have your art department find visuals, in...
forums.signumuniversity.org
[My organizational style defaults to 'extremely chaotic', so I typically do not rearrange threads here very much. I thought in this case, it was warranted to avoid losing discussions, or talking about too many different topics on a thread. My apologies if this feels intrusive.]
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No, that makes a lot of sense, thanks!
Re: Daeron, it would probably be very easy for him to end up as a somewhat tired version of the higher status end of a love triangle that has no chance against our scrappy young hero. I am not sure I want to see a lot of that Daeron personally. I'd love for Daeron going to Thingol to leave more of a feeling of shock and betrayal in both Luthien and the audience, and less just petty but expected vengeance.
Re: Daeron, it would probably be very easy for him to end up as a somewhat tired version of the higher status end of a love triangle that has no chance against our scrappy young hero. I am not sure I want to see a lot of that Daeron personally. I'd love for Daeron going to Thingol to leave more of a feeling of shock and betrayal in both Luthien and the audience, and less just petty but expected vengeance.
Odola
Well-Known Member
The first time he goes to Thingol he just chooses to remember that he is a citizen of Doriath - so the shock to that audience is naturally limited - it could have been expected. The second time might be unexpected - both to Luthien and to the audience.
Both Daeron and Celegorm are put before the audience (and Lúthien) as potential alternatives to Beren. Naturally, Lúthien chooses Beren. But while the audience may think that Daeron and Lúthien are a better match at first...they aren't going to have any of those qualms about Celegorm - he is clearly bad news. So, not only is Daeron part of a potential love triangle, we're going to introduce another triangle immediately after. So, I think we should really emphasize the long history of friendship between Daeron and Lúthien - he knows her, and so the worries and concerns he has about her situation come from that place. That will contrast strongly with Celegorm's viewpoint, as a stranger who just met her, thinks she's beautiful, and hopes she'll come around to his point of view.
Think of it this way. If someone announces a sudden engagement to a scruffy guy she just met on Facebook, their friends will congratulate her, tell her the ring is beautiful, and wish them well. Because...casual acquaintances, co-workers, former classmates...they don't have to live with the consequences, and will just trust that she'll figure it out - if she's making a mistake, she'll learn the hard way. Very few friends will pull her aside and say, ummm...what are you doing?! The thought there is that people tend to mind their own business, or express their concerns to their own friends. They'll talk to *other* people about her crazy plans, but not confront her over it. The only people who would directly question the girl would be very close friends or family, who are concerned, because they don't want to see her hurt, and are willing to risk her being upset with them in one conversation if that is enough to avoid a bad situation that they see.
Most abusive relationships have red flags, but most abusers are careful to keep these red flags hidden from close friends and family for a long time. Being charming is necessary to mask the ugly behavior. There will always be a lot of excuses and explanations as to why things are happening the way they are. And any disagreement will be used for future isolation. There is enough tension in those situations that it is difficult to confront anyone involved, because the likely outcome is being cutoff.
So, strangely enough, Daeron's concerns about Beren - hey, you two just met, he's a scruffy mortal, he stumbled into our land from the war-torn disaster he calls home, I don't trust him....these sound like reasonable things to be concerned about, and the type of thing that he, as a good friend, could discuss with Lúthien. Becuase Beren is *not* abusive, nor seeking to manipulate Lúthien, he is not going to prevent Lúthien from having a heart-to-heart with her good buddy Daeron. And because she values his counsel, she's not going to simply get mad at him for questioning her new-found love. She'll probably tell him he doesn't understand, but also thank him for being a good friend and sharing his concerns with her.
So, I think we start with 'concerned friend' when it comes to the starting point of Daeron's story. Of course he loves Lúthien - everyone does, and she is very good friends with him. But perhaps the idea that it's jealousy, or 'Lúthien should choose me' is not really the primary angle, here. It's probably not absent entirely, but I think he could object to this relationship on other grounds, and be genuinely worried about Lúthien's wellbeing.
Think of it this way. If someone announces a sudden engagement to a scruffy guy she just met on Facebook, their friends will congratulate her, tell her the ring is beautiful, and wish them well. Because...casual acquaintances, co-workers, former classmates...they don't have to live with the consequences, and will just trust that she'll figure it out - if she's making a mistake, she'll learn the hard way. Very few friends will pull her aside and say, ummm...what are you doing?! The thought there is that people tend to mind their own business, or express their concerns to their own friends. They'll talk to *other* people about her crazy plans, but not confront her over it. The only people who would directly question the girl would be very close friends or family, who are concerned, because they don't want to see her hurt, and are willing to risk her being upset with them in one conversation if that is enough to avoid a bad situation that they see.
Most abusive relationships have red flags, but most abusers are careful to keep these red flags hidden from close friends and family for a long time. Being charming is necessary to mask the ugly behavior. There will always be a lot of excuses and explanations as to why things are happening the way they are. And any disagreement will be used for future isolation. There is enough tension in those situations that it is difficult to confront anyone involved, because the likely outcome is being cutoff.
So, strangely enough, Daeron's concerns about Beren - hey, you two just met, he's a scruffy mortal, he stumbled into our land from the war-torn disaster he calls home, I don't trust him....these sound like reasonable things to be concerned about, and the type of thing that he, as a good friend, could discuss with Lúthien. Becuase Beren is *not* abusive, nor seeking to manipulate Lúthien, he is not going to prevent Lúthien from having a heart-to-heart with her good buddy Daeron. And because she values his counsel, she's not going to simply get mad at him for questioning her new-found love. She'll probably tell him he doesn't understand, but also thank him for being a good friend and sharing his concerns with her.
So, I think we start with 'concerned friend' when it comes to the starting point of Daeron's story. Of course he loves Lúthien - everyone does, and she is very good friends with him. But perhaps the idea that it's jealousy, or 'Lúthien should choose me' is not really the primary angle, here. It's probably not absent entirely, but I think he could object to this relationship on other grounds, and be genuinely worried about Lúthien's wellbeing.
Yeah I agree, being a good friend should absolutely be central. An amount of jealousy could play into the feeling of betrayal, making his actions potentially a lot more selfish, but that could well play out a little in the background, at least at first. I wonder how to do the betrayal though. Is there enough time to really establish the trust between them? I feel like the whole sub-plot might feel a little pointless if a viewer's take away could just be: "ah there we go, that's how thingol is gonna find out"
Octoburn
Active Member
There is mention of a lot of the Grey-elves who were in other elven kingdoms (mostly Noldorin kingdoms; I believe Hithlum is specifically mentioned) returning to Doriath post-Bragollach to put some space between them and the war. That taking in of refugees could definitely be part of the early Doriath plotlines involving Thingol, Luthien, Melian, Daeron, etc.
As far as Daeron goes, he does betray Luthien twice to Thingol. He also aids in her escape from the treehouse, if you go by the Lay version; he makes her a loom which she weaves her cloak on. Would Thingol banishing him because of this make him seem even more "jerkish" or could it go towards helping to show that he's not just a jerk, he's punishing those who endanger his daughter? I could go either way on it, it's just an idea I had that could fill in the part about Daeron wandering eternally.
As far as Daeron goes, he does betray Luthien twice to Thingol. He also aids in her escape from the treehouse, if you go by the Lay version; he makes her a loom which she weaves her cloak on. Would Thingol banishing him because of this make him seem even more "jerkish" or could it go towards helping to show that he's not just a jerk, he's punishing those who endanger his daughter? I could go either way on it, it's just an idea I had that could fill in the part about Daeron wandering eternally.
To me especially the treehouse part and the loom are reminiscent of the og sleeping beauty fairy tale, where her parents go to great lengths to evade the prophecy about her, and burn all spindles in the kingdom & agressively try to shelter her. The Lay to me is a subversive version of multiple fairytales at once. Here in the Sleeping Beauty part of it, we don't have an evil fairy going for revenge, but only the unavoidable doom as a force Thingol is trying to resist. The parents in the fairy tale aren't evil per se, they just refuse to accept they cannot change prophecy, it is more desperate folly than maliciousness. Their measures can sound cruel and misguided, but they are depicted as tragic, not evil.
Daeron (in one version) kind of subverts the figure of the evil fairy, he brings the means of Luthiens' escape from the treehouse and enables her to pursue her doom. He is sort of the catalyst of the pursueing vs resisting doom process thingol, melian, luthien & beren are in
Daeron (in one version) kind of subverts the figure of the evil fairy, he brings the means of Luthiens' escape from the treehouse and enables her to pursue her doom. He is sort of the catalyst of the pursueing vs resisting doom process thingol, melian, luthien & beren are in
Odola
Well-Known Member
I would think this would be a simple vertical standing loom?
Seems the most elvish to me, anything with treadles is far too machinized, time-sevings-focussed and too rhytmic - beyond taking up too much space in a treehouse.
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I agree that showing Sindar returning to Doriath in the wake of the Dagor Bragollach would be an ideal way to show what the people of Doriath think of that event. They were mostly absent from the war itself, and did not feature prominently last season at all. We had some storylines involving Thingol and Men - his decision to ban them from Doriath in the first place, the decision of Haleth's people to transverse Nan Dungortheb rather than wait for his permission to enter Doriath, and then the eventual decision to 'allow' the people of Haleth to inhabit the Forest of Brethil in exchange of ridding the place of Tevildo and his cats. Beleg was an important go-between to find a diplomatic solution in that case. So, we have set up Thingol's policy on Men and closed borders, but we have room to discuss how the broken leaguer affects Doriath and everyone's views now.
Halstein
Active Member
The old Norse used this type of loom for weaving. They could also be used as an aide for casting spells.