Session 6-06: Nargothrond and Doriath

[Ange1e4e5]

Meril would have had the opportunity to meet Lúthien at Galadriel's wedding in Nargothrond, or possibly at the Mereth Aderthad. So, yes, a Sinda who looks up to Lúthien as Thingol's daughter and a leader of Doriath fits the character we have given Meril thus far.

She is quite protective of Orodreth. She knows he was deeply hurt by the loss of his parents. He was leary to even start a family after the death of his mother in the Dagor Aglareb. She wants to support him and help heal him. So, leaving Orodreth while he is facing a major crisis would be out of character for her. My presumption is that she will urge Gil-galad to leave, but will stay behind herself.

We have not yet come up with a firm answer to the question of what Celegorm and Curufin are doing in Nargothrond. Having them aid those escaping Tol Sirion fits, but...why are they on hand for that? We need to tell a story that puts them there if we are going that route.

I am fine with using a flashback to the end of the Dagor Bragollach to explain their presence in West Beleriand, but we are supposed to use flashback only very sparingly as a narrative device.

Well, the idea is that Celegorm and Curufin are fleeing westward from their holdings in... Himlad? Himring? Call it a chance meeting on the surface, though quite obviously more opportunistic than that; basically Orodreth would be placed in their debt. During the eight years they are in Nargothrond, Celegorm and Curufin would slowly gain power, and according to the published Silmarillion, they lead a sizable contingent of the military arm of Nargothrond and proven useful. Essentially they could control Nargothrond's future through Finrod's only heir, Orodreth (as indeed they do until word comes of the death of Finrod).

 

[Odola]

Meril would have had the opportunity to meet Lúthien at Galadriel's wedding in Nargothrond, or possibly at the Mereth Aderthad. So, yes, a Sinda who looks up to Lúthien as Thingol's daughter and a leader of Doriath fits the character we have given Meril thus far.

She is quite protective of Orodreth. She knows he was deeply hurt by the loss of his parents. He was leary to even start a family after the death of his mother in the Dagor Aglareb. She wants to support him and help heal him. So, leaving Orodreth while he is facing a major crisis would be out of character for her. My presumption is that she will urge Gil-galad to leave, but will stay behind herself.

Great, that make sense. But that means Meril becomes queen when Orodreth takes the throne. Does she get weary and decides to sail later? Or is she killed together with her husband? (By the way, accoring to NoME Gil-Galad is silver-haired. As such so prabably is his mother). What is Meril's stance towards the Feanorians? And how is Luthien's relationship with Finduilas?

 

[MithLuin]

I would say that Lúthien and Finduilas have never met before. Finduilas exists, and has for an entire season, but hasn't been really introduced as a character. The main relationship we will likely show her developing in the Nargothrond scenes this season will be with Gwindor.

We have not yet made any firm decision concerning Meril's fate. As for her connection to the Fëanoreans, I can't imagine she's thrilled with them. She married Orodreth before the Kinslaying reveal came to light. So, she had to deal with the fallout as a Sinda married to a Noldo. However, Orodreth is fast friends with Celebrimbor, and she doesn't have a problem with that.

 

[Odola]

I would say that Lúthien and Finduilas have never met before. Finduilas exists, and has for an entire season, but hasn't been really introduced as a character. The main relationship we will likely show her developing in the Nargothrond scenes this season will be with Gwindor.

We have not yet made any firm decision concerning Meril's fate. As for her connection to the Fëanoreans, I can't imagine she's thrilled with them. She married Orodreth before the Kinslaying reveal came to light. So, she had to deal with the fallout as a Sinda married to a Noldo. However, Orodreth is fast friends with Celebrimbor, and she doesn't have a problem with that.

So Meril she might be ready to let the past be past at first - for the peace of her family - but only up to the moment when the conflict with her son starts. But what later - she becomes queen when Finrod leaves but cannot openly go against the Feanorians? Can she be the originator of the fraction which gets them finally expelled, working gradually towards this goal from behind with her advisors, but not openly?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I would say that Lúthien and Finduilas have never met before. Finduilas exists, and has for an entire season, but hasn't been really introduced as a character. The main relationship we will likely show her developing in the Nargothrond scenes this season will be with Gwindor.

We have not yet made any firm decision concerning Meril's fate. As for her connection to the Fëanoreans, I can't imagine she's thrilled with them. She married Orodreth before the Kinslaying reveal came to light. So, she had to deal with the fallout as a Sinda married to a Noldo. However, Orodreth is fast friends with Celebrimbor, and she doesn't have a problem with that.

There's a couple ways; she could wind up a refugee with Cirdan at some point... or she's toast in the Fall of Nargothrond.

 

[Patrick Graham]

An old idea i had for Celegorm & Curufin was basically they are cut off from their brothers and are being pursued by a sizeable army and are denied entry through Doriath and refused aid for their refugee people by the march wardens and they fled through Nan Dungortheb (this part of my idea was vetoed) but it would place them in the region of Tol Sirion in time to rescue Orodreth and any survivors and explain there later standing of influence in Nargothrond. Or we could just show them turning up to the rescue without explaining there route.

 

[MithLuin]

I feel that we do need to explain their presence in West Beleriand, regardless of how they got there.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I feel that we do need to explain their presence in West Beleriand, regardless of how they got there.

I got the impression that the Sons of Fëanor were scattered by the presence of Glaurung, where the Dagor Bragollach fell hardest (apart from Dorthonion). What's the location of Keep Helevorn in East Beleriand? Celegorm and Curufin could be forced westward, fail to gain entry to Doriath as per @Patrick Graham's suggestion (why they would even try given their names are mud in Doriath is beyond me), see opportunity with refugees from Tol Sirion, and take it. On the other hand, how much of it needs to be said?

 

[Odola]

What's the location of Keep Helevorn in East Beleriand?

The Encyclopedia of Arda - Lake Helevorn

In the far north of Ered Luin, the Blue Mountains, a branch of the range ran down southwestwards to form a hooked shape. Within the crook of this shape,...

www.glyphweb.com

There is a nice map here who starys from where:

Dagor Bragollach - Alchetron, The Free Social Encyclopedia

In J. R. R. Tolkien's fictional Middleearth, the Dagor Bragollach (dr brlx) (Sindarin for Battle of Sudden Flame) was the fourth battle of the Wars of Beleriand. It was the great turning point in the War of the Jewels. It began on a winter's night in the beginning of the year 455 of the

alchetron.com

According to me they just follow the southern border of Doriath and could meet the refugees from Tol Sirion not far from Nargothrond itself - who could still be pursued down the Sirion valley.

 

[Patrick Graham]

I got the impression that the Sons of Fëanor were scattered by the presence of Glaurung, where the Dagor Bragollach fell hardest (apart from Dorthonion). What's the location of Keep Helevorn in East Beleriand? Celegorm and Curufin could be forced westward, fail to gain entry to Doriath as per @Patrick Graham's suggestion (why they would even try given their names are mud in Doriath is beyond me), see opportunity with refugees from Tol Sirion, and take it. On the other hand, how much of it needs to be said?

My thoughts regarding why the C brothers would try Doriath was to find a temporary refuge for their non combatants only, they were badly mauled by the enemy, driven from their land with an army on their tails. I don't think the brothers and their warriors wanted refuge only their wounded and non combatants. Plus being refused will bear fruit for future seasons, we are told Celegorm was the main instigator of the second kinslaying, we could use this as part of his motives for 'revenge' on Doraith amongst other reasons.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

An old idea i had for Celegorm & Curufin was basically they are cut off from their brothers and are being pursued by a sizeable army and are denied entry through Doriath and refused aid for their refugee people by the march wardens and they fled through Nan Dungortheb (this part of my idea was vetoed) but it would place them in the region of Tol Sirion in time to rescue Orodreth and any survivors and explain there later standing of influence in Nargothrond. Or we could just show them turning up to the rescue without explaining there route.

So, what in this scenario is this pursuing army's objective? Originally, the objective of the army attacking them was the Pass of Aglon. That having been taken, what is spurring this pursuit deep into hostile territory?

 

[MithLuin]

Right, Morgoth has taken the Pass of Aglon, so Celegorm and Curufin must retreat/flee with all of their people. That is our starting point.

I agree it is unlikely that an army of Warg riders would pursue them to the borders of Doriath, but harassing them while they are on the open plains nearby seems like a plausible thing that could happen. Raids deep into East Beleriand aren't going to be commonplace in the aftermath of the Dagor Bragollach, as they have to know that their hold on the Pass of Aglon and Maglor's Gap are tenuous at best. Digging in and short sorties are more likely.

The real issue is this. We know why Celegorm and Curufin must leave the Pass of Aglon. What we don't have is a clear reason why they then go to West Beleriand. If they are near Tol Sirion when it falls, then we can certainly bring them into Nargothrond with Orodreth and the refugees. But...what are they doing there in the first place?

There are a few established details we can work with, but we don't have a story yet.

1) Celegorm and Curufin disregarded Maedhros' instructions during the Dagor Bragollach, and as a direct result, lost the Pass of Aglon. Thus, there may be more conflict than usual between the brothers at the moment.

2) Celebrimbor and Orodreth are best friends. Celebrimbor would certainly be enthusiastic about visiting his good buddy Orodreth at Minas Tirith.

3) The route they take from East Beleriand to West Beleriand is the south of Doriath route, past the Falls of Sirion.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Right, Morgoth has taken the Pass of Aglon, so Celegorm and Curufin must retreat/flee with all of their people. That is our starting point.

I agree it is unlikely that an army of Warg riders would pursue them to the borders of Doriath, but harassing them while they are on the open plains nearby seems like a plausible thing that could happen. Raids deep into East Beleriand aren't going to be commonplace in the aftermath of the Dagor Bragollach, as they have to know that their hold on the Pass of Aglon and Maglor's Gap are tenuous at best. Digging in and short sorties are more likely.

The real issue is this. We know why Celegorm and Curufin must leave the Pass of Aglon. What we don't have is a clear reason why they then go to West Beleriand. If they are near Tol Sirion when it falls, then we can certainly bring them into Nargothrond with Orodreth and the refugees. But...what are they doing there in the first place?

There are a few established details we can work with, but we don't have a story yet.

1) Celegorm and Curufin disregarded Maedhros' instructions during the Dagor Bragollach, and as a direct result, lost the Pass of Aglon. Thus, there may be more conflict than usual between the brothers at the moment.

2) Celebrimbor and Orodreth are best friends. Celebrimbor would certainly be enthusiastic about visiting his good buddy Orodreth at Minas Tirith.

3) The route they take from East Beleriand to West Beleriand is the south of Doriath route, past the Falls of Sirion.

Well, as to why Nargothrond, that's the only place the refugees can go in West Beleriand that's an Elven realm. Nobody enters Doriath but on fate, Sauron cut Beleriand in two at Tol Sirion so they can't go to Hithlum/Mithrim, and nobody knows where Gondolin is unless you're on the back of an Eagle. So Nargothrond it is, and Orodreth likely remembers how to get there.

Now why Western Beleriand (and bear in mind we don't have to put all this in dialogue)? They could have been forced out of the vicinity of the Pass and westward.

 

[Odola]

Right, Morgoth has taken the Pass of Aglon, so Celegorm and Curufin must retreat/flee with all of their people. That is our starting point.

I agree it is unlikely that an army of Warg riders would pursue them to the borders of Doriath, but harassing them while they are on the open plains nearby seems like a plausible thing that could happen. Raids deep into East Beleriand aren't going to be commonplace in the aftermath of the Dagor Bragollach, as they have to know that their hold on the Pass of Aglon and Maglor's Gap are tenuous at best. Digging in and short sorties are more likely.

The real issue is this. We know why Celegorm and Curufin must leave the Pass of Aglon. What we don't have is a clear reason why they then go to West Beleriand. If they are near Tol Sirion when it falls, then we can certainly bring them into Nargothrond with Orodreth and the refugees. But...what are they doing there in the first place?

There are a few established details we can work with, but we don't have a story yet.

1) Celegorm and Curufin disregarded Maedhros' instructions during the Dagor Bragollach, and as a direct result, lost the Pass of Aglon. Thus, there may be more conflict than usual between the brothers at the moment.

2) Celebrimbor and Orodreth are best friends. Celebrimbor would certainly be enthusiastic about visiting his good buddy Orodreth at Minas Tirith.

3) The route they take from East Beleriand to West Beleriand is the south of Doriath route, past the Falls of Sirion.

How about Celebrimbor being close to Orodreth receiving a some sort of feeling he is in need? He would be on emotional uproar being ousted from Tol Sirion and Celebrimbor wants to check out on him? Having not really any better place to go his father and uncle decide to go West as they have no real reason to go elsewhere?

 

[MithLuin]

Yes, I do like the idea that the Fëanoreans are en route to Minas Tirith specifically to help reinforce its defenses after the Dagor Bragollach...only to have Sauron attack with an undead army.

I don't think we need to make Celebrimbor aware of the attack before it happens. Tol Sirion is the most important strategic location in West Beleriand, so it would be natural that many parties would be concerned about it post Dagor Bragollach.

I am concerned that it will look weird to send these characters from a loss of territory in East Beleriand, and then, rather than focus their efforts on retaking what they've lost or rebuilding Himring, they...decide to leave? It feels a bit...off.

If they didn't have to wind up in Nargothrond this season, and I was trying to come up with their movements, I would likely presume that they retreated south, perhaps to Amon Ereb, and then returned north to assist Maedhros with securing East Beleriand once again. So, to send them around Doriath to Minas Tirith, and then Nargothrond...well, it's a bit puzzling.

 

[Odola]

Yes, I do like the idea that the Fëanoreans are en route to Minas Tirith specifically to help reinforce its defenses after the Dagor Bragollach...only to have Sauron attack with an undead army.

I don't think we need to make Celebrimbor aware of the attack before it happens. Tol Sirion is the most important strategic location in West Beleriand, so it would be natural that many parties would be concerned about it post Dagor Bragollach.

I am concerned that it will look weird to send these characters from a loss of territory in East Beleriand, and then, rather than focus their efforts on retaking what they've lost or rebuilding Himring, they...decide to leave? It feels a bit...off.

If they didn't have to wind up in Nargothrond this season, and I was trying to come up with their movements, I would likely presume that they retreated south, perhaps to Amon Ereb, and then returned north to assist Maedhros with securing East Beleriand once again. So, to send them around Doriath to Minas Tirith, and then Nargothrond...well, it's a bit puzzling.

Celebrimbor I meant getting aware not before, but during the taking of Tol Sirion, as it might well take some days - or weeks - for Orodreth and his family to get down to Nargothrod, even if they travel by boat.

The Feanorians also might have somebody injured among them and the next assembly of good healers being Nargothrond.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

As far as Doriath is concerned, there really isn't that much in between sending Beren off to get the Silmaril and when he returns with Lúthien (and minus a hand) after the Boldog attack is going to be adapted out. Thingol gives Beren the quest of taking a Silmaril thinking it's a snipe hunt, has Lúthien placed in a beech tree (which she escapes from), reacting with some measure of anger when Celegorm attempts to press his suit.

Daeron has almost nothing to do after he betrays Lúthien to Thingol (twice I might add) and then looks for Luthien himself but does not return.
For example, what is his reasoning does he have for betraying her to Thingol? Why would Lúthien trust him again after he betrayed her?

 

[Odola]

Daeron has almost nothing to do after he betrays Lúthien to Thingol (twice I might add) and then looks for Luthien himself but does not return.
For example, what is his reasoning does he have for betraying her to Thingol? Why would Lúthien trust him after he betrayed her?

Remembering his loyalty a a subject to the king and a citizen to his country? He was cowering for an illegal intruder for a time out of frienship for Luthien to allow her to have her fun but then decided this is going out of hand, Luthien is compromising herself and the king and her father has to be informed?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Remembering his loyalty a a subject to the king and a citizen to his country? He was cowering for an illegal intruder for a time out of frienship for Luthien to allow her to have her fun but then decided this is going out of hand, Luthien is compromising herself and the king and her father has to be informed?

Which brings us back to the second question: why would Lúthien bother going to Daeron for help?

 

[Odola]

Which brings us back to the second question: why would Lúthien bother going to Daeron for help?

Because keeping her captive for as a preventive measure is exceeding the limits of a just king. As such Daeron would seek to remedy that. She is no a minor, she cannot be justly treated as a child anymore. She could be put to trial and sentenced for a misdemeanour but not randomly put under house arrest just because she wants to leave Doriath.