Session 6-08: Beren and Lúthien Part 2

[MithLuin]

Session 6-08 will be held on Thursday March 24th at 10 PM Eastern Time. Note that daylight savings time will hit that timezone on Saturday March 12th, so adjust accordingly. We will continue to discuss the Beren and Lúthien storyline, beginning with Episode 5 and continuing to Episode 7. This will cover the part of the story from when Beren departs from Doriath to when Lúthien is reunited with him at Tol Sirion. Pacing...is it possible to do all of that in 3 episodes, or will Lúthien actually bring the tower down in Episode 8?

Some of the items to discuss:

Imprisoning Lúthien, the daughter of a Maia, in a treehouse. How does that work? Why the rapunzel routine to escape?
Confrontation with Sauron at Tol Sirion. How will that go?


Here is a brief overview of the Beren and Lúthien story, roughly broken down by episode so far:

 

[kanji_d]

Re: Why does the imprisonment work, she may be half-Maia but there is still a Maia in Doriath. I'm not sure if it fits Melian's character to go along with Thingol's demands, but if it does that creates a reason that seems good enough. As for why the escape is so complicated... um... Special Luthien magic? That's a really weak explanation, I know, but I get the feeling that's kind of the logical explanation given the rest of the story.

 

[MithLuin]

Yes, the implication that Melian is involved would explain how the imprisonment would work. Melian can make a treehouse inescapable, presumably. So that raises the question...will Melian aid Thingol in this matter ... And if so, why?

I read Melian's character as someone who accepts the inevitability of Beren and Lúthien's relationship. It isn't a matter of whether or not she approves...she knows it is meant to be. So it seems unlikely that she would use her power to try to stop it.

 

[Odola]

Yes, the implication that Melian is involved would explain how the imprisonment would work. Melian can make a treehouse inescapable, presumably. So that raises the question...will Melian aid Thingol in this matter ... And if so, why?

I read Melian's character as someone who accepts the inevitability of Beren and Lúthien's relationship. It isn't a matter of whether or not she approves...she knows it is meant to be. So it seems unlikely that she would use her power to try to stop it.

Do you happen to know what exactly is the issue about the treehouse situation that Tolkien Pofessor finds poblematic? Then we would have some directions what to think about.

 

[MithLuin]

He called it an adaptation challenge, so I imagine part of the issue is how to depict a treehouse...that also serves as a formidable prison. Otherwise, Lúthien's escape is going to be...obvious? After all, many viewers of Jackson's films mocked Saruman for imprisoning Gandalf on top of Orthanc. Didn't he have a dungeon? Why leave Gandalf in an open-air prison he can escape from?

If the top of Orthanc was not a convincing prison, how much less a treehouse? The treehouse would per force be nearer to the ground, and the tree would likely look... climbable. So, Thingol is going to look like an idiot for trusting the treehouse to hold her, and she is going to look weirdly weak for having so much trouble escaping. Like... seriously, she can't just jump out the window? I think it will have to be a magic prison of some sort. Either the tree is sentient or Melian helped, or some other explanation as to why this is more than it appears. Because the appearance is unlikely to be convincing alone.

 

[Odola]

If the top of Orthanc was not a convincing prison, how much less a treehouse? The treehouse would per force be nearer to the ground, and the tree would likely look... climbable. So, Thingol is going to look like an idiot for trusting the treehouse to hold her, and she is going to look weirdly weak for having so much trouble escaping. Like... seriously, she can't just jump out the window? I think it will have to be a magic prison of some sort. Either the tree is sentient or Melian helped, or some other explanation as to why this is more than it appears. Because the appearance is unlikely to be convincing alone.

Then I would go with an "awakened" tree option and would make her female (in a contrast to "Old Man Willow" who traps passers-by) and a personal friend of Thingol. Her "magical" care of Luthien would be both motherly but also not at all easily overcomable without hurting the tree herself - something Luthien could have done given her powers but something Luthien as an elf would never do voluntarily.
Would be both very elvish and magical imho.

 

[Odola]

As I see the discussion has calmed down a bit I will allow myself to link a great 2 minutes long animated summary of the history of handspinning

for those less familiar with it.

Here you see the development from manually twisting yarn in the Stone Agę to of the use of spindles (e.g. in Egipt), the use of first wheels in China as derivate of silk processing (the silk moth on the tree) the use of the charkha in India for cotton and the hand moved great wheel for flax in Europe, ending in a full spinning wheel and then an e-spinner at the very end.

As I've stated before there is no way imho the tree-loving free roaming Sindar for whom time is of no consequence would invent something as sedentary, mobility-limiting, industrial, machinal and artless as a full spinning wheel.

So I do think in our context the dwarves would be the most likely inventors as they are into industry, efficiency and specialist tool making.

As such I do propose the wheel to be a courtesy gift send to Melian from the dwarves as a polite addition to some diplomatic correspondence (akin to some "free samples" added to a customer mail nowadays) which she tried to show to Luthien as a curiosity to try to get her interested ot something else than her dance routine. The wheel I would then assume unused untill Luthien sends for it when in the tree house.

As such I would assume the wheel to be a metal one and not wood:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a2/47/2d/a2472daeb5819d0705a5946a571ee63e.jpg

 

[kanji_d]

I think it will have to be a magic prison of some sort. Either the tree is sentient or Melian helped, or some other explanation as to why this is more than it appears. Because the appearance is unlikely to be convincing alone.

Then I would go with an "awakened" tree option and would make her female (in a contrast to "Old Man Willow" who traps passers-by) and a personal friend of Thingol. Her "magical" care of Luthien would be both motherly but also not at all easily overcomable without hurting the tree herself - something Luthien could have done given her powers but something Luthien as an elf would never do voluntarily.

I do rather like the idea that Luthien could escape by far more simple means, but chooses not to because it would harm something. It both explains why the prison works and why the escape has to be so complicated.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

He called it an adaptation challenge, so I imagine part of the issue is how to depict a treehouse...that also serves as a formidable prison. Otherwise, Lúthien's escape is going to be...obvious? After all, many viewers of Jackson's films mocked Saruman for imprisoning Gandalf on top of Orthanc. Didn't he have a dungeon? Why leave Gandalf in an open-air prison he can escape from?

If the top of Orthanc was not a convincing prison, how much less a treehouse? The treehouse would per force be nearer to the ground, and the tree would likely look... climbable. So, Thingol is going to look like an idiot for trusting the treehouse to hold her, and she is going to look weirdly weak for having so much trouble escaping. Like... seriously, she can't just jump out the window? I think it will have to be a magic prison of some sort. Either the tree is sentient or Melian helped, or some other explanation as to why this is more than it appears. Because the appearance is unlikely to be convincing alone.

So, here's a thing: in S02, we had the Elves traverse rough terrain or even rivers with the help of friendly trees who reshaped themselves to suit. This could be use in the case of the tree house. To create a situation with no real egress.

 

[MithLuin]

And if the treehouse were made from the living tree, escaping without harming the tree becomes a challenge.

Here is a rough breakdown of these episodes. Daeron is probably the most conspicuous absence at the moment.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

And if the treehouse were made from the living tree, escaping without harming the tree becomes a challenge.

Here is a rough breakdown of these episodes. Daeron is probably the most conspicuous absence at the moment.

View attachment 4092

Most certainly, Luthien should not harm the tree. But we might call forward to her recruitment of Huan by her bringing the tree over to her "side".

 

[Odola]

Most certainly, Luthien should not harm the tree. But we might call forward to her recruitment of Huan by her bringing the tree over to her "side".

That was the idea idea I've stated in the other thread. But it should take some time. That is why I do suggest the tree to be Thingol's personal friend. There would be a loyalty conflict for the tree.

 

[MithLuin]

What to do about Daeron?

We do need to start figuring out his story, and where it's going.

I do not want him to be someone else proposing marriage to Lúthien this season. That is going to feel redundant with both Beren and Celegorm doing that, as well as 'why now?' when they've known each other for ages. But more importantly, I don't want Lúthien being in a position of figuring out how to reject his suit when Beren arrives.

Naturally, Daeron loves Lúthien. Everyone loves Lúthien. And they are best friends. But what form does his love take?

I would suggest that he be someone who is in love with Lúthien, but is resigned to the reality that she does not return his feelings. He has told himself that he's fine with being friends, and that he understands that marriage to him is just not a thing that Lúthien wants in her life. He's content to play music for her and watch her art grow. He values his role in her life, and in the court of Menegroth.

And so, in Episode 1, when we are getting the 'outsider view' of Lúthien, someone can tease Daeron about when he and Lúthien are getting married...to which he responds something along the lines of 'never' or 'not likely.' Perhaps at that time we can see that he is not opposed to the idea, but he knows it's not what Lúthien wants.

And then Beren shows up, and Lúthien falls in love in Episode 4.

Suddenly, Daeron is not so content to stand by and watch. He is hit out of nowhere by jealousy over what cannot be his, but what Lúthien apparently is capable of. Maybe he thought she was never going to fall in love with anyone? Or maybe he was okay with it as a concept...something that would happen 'eventually' or 'someday', but the reality is a little too close and personal and brings out some feelings that weren't present before. He can't fool himself about being 'over' his feelings for Lúthien...he's clearly not as resigned as he thought.

So what does he do? In this situation, I think he would warn Lúthien against Beren first, as a concerned friend...and only when she ignores his advice does he go to Thingol and reveal Beren's presence in Doriath. That conversation leads directly to the audience where Beren proposes and Thingol gives the quest. So while Lúthien may feel hurt by the apparent betrayal, all Daeron accomplished was hastening the thing he was trying to prevent.
During the Treehouse imprisonment episode, Daeron would try to make up with Lúthien. He never meant to hurt her, he was only looking out for her best interest, etc. And as part of that apology, he aids in her escape.

After she has left Doriath, which he knew she would do, what happens to him? Is he imprisoned by Thingol for going against the king's orders? Does he regret his choice and worry about Lúthien's safety out in the world? Or does pretty much nothing happen for him until Celegorm's proposal arrives? He could be angrier at that than he was over Beren, because he would know that Lúthien does not love this guy, so the sheer presumption and gall....at least DAERON respected her wishes! I would think this would be the moment he'd be spurred into action.

Tolkien sends him off hunting for Lúthien, ,never to be seen again. What do we wish to do with him?

 

[Odola]

...
Tolkien sends him off hunting for Lúthien, ,never to be seen again. What do we wish to do with him?

I find you previous plotline above convincing.

But about the end - either Daeron gets killed (eaten by a spider most probably or dies of a broken heart) or he is due to reappear somewhere - to many people roaming about for nobody to ever see him again. So he might either permanently recluse himself - but why? - or return when Dior is about to take over the thone and be killed when Doriath falls.

I personally would prefer the last solution - helping Dior recover Doriath after Thingol's death would both rehabilitate Daeron and reconnect Dior to the Doriath from before its decline has started. It would also give Daeron a honorable death when fighting the Feanorians.

 

[Haerangil]

C'mon! Elves are pretty extreme characters, even when not Feanorians. Some people are extreme in everything they'll do...
Daeron goes fey because of lost love and possibly deep guilt. Changing his fate would destroy that theme...
Why do we have to give him a defined end? I like open ends...

Would be like adding a line to the song "solitary man".

 

[Odola]

C'mon! Elves are pretty extreme characters, even when not Feanorians. Some people are extreme in everything they'll do...
Daeron goes fey because of lost love and possibly deep guilt. Changing his fate would destroy that theme...
Why do we have to give him a defined end? I like open ends...

Would be like adding a line to the song "solitary man".

Yeah, but this Daeron it this story is far to reasonable for such an end to be in character with this his character. ;-) Beyond just pure technical locational improbability of such an end given the general geopolitical circumstances.

 

[Haerangil]

I don't see any of that!

 

[Odola]

I don't see any of that!

So where do you see him wandering about without being eaten or found? He cannot be expected to climb up Ered Gorgoroth to Dothonion where wandering about fey without meeting anyone could be somewhat believeable? Besides, he knows Luthien goes West in seach for Beren so he would be following her - and there are no areas there for him to get "lost forever" - he would have to came to the valley of Sirion and as such be found there by somebody?

 

[Haerangil]

How do you know that? He would have followed her... always being too late, too late at Nargothrond, too late at Tol in Gaurhoth... then at the Gates of Angband, either too late too or assuming she was dead, we are told he didn't return to Doriath... why? Out of shame? Did he somehow hear she had returned and died and then went east over ered luin? Did he ever talk to anybody at all? Or did he hear she was returned at Tol Galen together again with Beren and hearing this he could't stand the thought and left to be as far away as possible?

All possible scenarios, yet not a very thrilling story to tell on screen ,i agree...
Yet, what's wrong with having him wander out into the wild and not telling his story? One could give him a short scene near the end of the season where he has a final look on Beleriand and then walks into the sunset playing a sad song.

 

[Odola]

How do you know that? He would have followed her... always being too late, too late at Nargothrond, too late at Tol in Gaurhoth... then at the Gates of Angband, [...] Did he ever talk to anybody at all?

To hear anything he has to speak to someone and as such be seen by somebody.

Or did he hear she was returned at Tol Galen together again with Beren and hearing this he could't stand the thought and left to be as far away as possible?

To leave "left to be as far away as possible" would mean "to sail".

This is all is before the War of Wrath - the lands are just not yet peaceful enough for a lone elf to safely roam about aimlessly and survive without ever meeting anyone else.

You mean he crossed the Blue Montains? Then he would be caught by the Easterlings.

All possible scenarios, yet not a very thrilling story to tell on screen ,i agree...
Yet, what's wrong with having him wander out into the wild and not telling his story? One could give him a short scene near the end of the season where he has a final look on Beleriand and then walks into the sunset playing a sad song.

But where is a believable wild able to support a lone elf's survival which is in the general direction of following Luthien's path? Show me this on the map, please.