Session 7-02: The Scope of Season 7

[Odola]

What happens to her after she gets there? She doesn't have to die this season, but if she does - how and why? What impact will that have on the story? If we decide to keep her alive for later seasons, what will be her role there?

Imho kill her fast so she does not learn of Dior existence... Otherwise it will look weird if she does not care enough to to want to meet him or at least send some messengers to have him described to her at their return and bringing some presents from her. A grandma is a grandma.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

Imho kill her fast so she does not learn of Dior existence... Otherwise it will look weird if she does not care enough to to want to meet him or at least send some messengers to have him described to her at their return and bringing some presents from her. A grandma is a grandma.

I'm not sure how she would know of Dior's existence. She may not even know that Beren returned from the dead. But even if she did, they are in Ossiriand and I can't imagine that news would reach her from there.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

We will be killing off some mortal characters by something other than old age this season (before the war at the end, I mean). So, we'll have to think about what happens to them and how that influences the story at that point.

Lalaith, of course, will die in a plague when she is 3.

But what will happen to Galdor? He needs to die early in the season so that Húrin can become the Lord of Dor-lómin soon after his return from Gondolin.

And how will we handle the end of Emeldir's story? Last we saw her, she was attending her son's wedding and fleeing from Carcharoth, and then deciding to migrate to Dor-lómin from Brethil. What happens to her after she gets there? She doesn't have to die this season, but if she does - how and why? What impact will that have on the story? If we decide to keep her alive for later seasons, what will be her role there?

There's an attack on Barad Eithel in 462 where Galdor is killed, Húrin and Huor in Gondolin could comprise an episode, they return early in the next, Galdor is killed at the end of the episode so Húrin accedes to the lordship.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Imho kill her fast so she does not learn of Dior existence... Otherwise it will look weird if she does not care enough to to want to meet him or at least send some messengers to have him described to her at their return and bringing some presents from her. A grandma is a grandma.

Crossing Beleriand would be an issue. Or we could have her killed when the Easterlings invade Dor-Lómin "And the old they killed or drove out to starve", take your pick.

 

[MithLuin]

Yes, if she survives this season, Emeldir would be part of the story of Dor-lómin being overrun by Easterlings. But it might seem somewhat incidental and throw-away if that is the last we see of her? If we cannot work her death into this season, that would be the default, though.

The Green elves of Ossiriand are notoriously hostile towards outsiders (especially dwarves and men), so the lack of exchange of news between Ossiriand and Dor-lómin (on opposite ends of Beleriand) would not surprise me. The tale of Beren and Lúthien stealing a silmaril spread like wildfire. It is *the* news of the time. Their wedding/death/return/and later childbearing would be noteworthy and news worth sharing...but fewer people know of these things as time goes on.

I don't think we should base our decision on Emeldir's fate on the idea that we must 'prevent' her from finding out about Dior. If she doesn't know, she doesn't know. If she does know, she can regret her grandchild being so far away, but be happy that he is safe and far from the wars. In other words...her reaction to news of Dior's existence would not 'break' the story, and if she never learns of this news, it won't likely be something the audience is wondering about, as Beren, Lúthien, and Dior may not appear in Season 7 at all (that will depend upon the Galadriel storyline).

 

[MithLuin]

There's an attack on Barad Eithel in 462 where Galdor is killed, Húrin and Huor in Gondolin could comprise an episode, they return early in the next, Galdor is killed at the end of the episode so Húrin accedes to the lordship.

I think we will want to shift that attack forward in time, so that Húrin and Huor can interact with Galdor before his death. We'll want him to be present at the reunion, and to get his moment of pulling the boys aside and asking them where they've been. So then the question becomes, do we keep that attack, and if so, how does that fit into the story?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I think we will want to shift that attack forward in time, so that Húrin and Huor can interact with Galdor before his death. We'll want him to be present at the reunion, and to get his moment of pulling the boys aside and asking them where they've been. So then the question becomes, do we keep that attack, and if so, how does that fit into the story?

Well, we could go with Húrin and Huor in Gondolin for Episode 1, they return to Dor-Lómin either at the end of the episode or the beginning of Episode 2, they talk with Galdor, Húrin and Morwen have their courtship and marry the next year (Episode 2 or 3). Galdor is killed in Episode 3 and Húrin is now Lord of Dor-Lómin, Túrin is born around this time.

 

[Odola]

I'm not sure how she would know of Dior's existence. She may not even know that Beren returned from the dead. But even if she did, they are in Ossiriand and I can't imagine that news would reach her from there.

Well, it was told before that we assume everybody automatically knows all that the audience knows per default and that we try avoid narrative irony if only possible. Dior is for sure someone Emeldir would naturally care deeply about if she were only able to know of him... So if he does appear before she dies she is assumed to know about him - however improbable in story...
And the issue here is, that if were she to known she would for sure have send messengers and those would be mortals, and no mortal ever spoke to Beren again, as such it is improbable for them to have spoken or seen little Dior...
Dior seem to have no contact to humanity ever in his growing up, his mother is mortal but not a human and his father is a returned nobody knows exactly what.

Actually during the whole of his short life Dior never meets a proper human nor do his children, as such Elwing's choice is a natural one, untill the Bay of Balar she has never as much as seen a human - why should she suddenly choose to become one? At least Tuor is a "proper" human for Earendil to have an idea what this is [well, that is not completely true, Tuor only ever met any humans as fellow slaves and as his slaveowners for a period of only a few years as a teenager, but whatever, he had at least met them... even if his proper acculturation into humanity is very shaky too, there is at least some contact there. (Even if I do not get how he ever became a leader among humans at the Havens if he had to little experience to know how to buy himself an apple from a market - he probable know better how to sing one onto an apple tree when he fancies one but not how to properly buy one, but whatever)].

So Emeldir's being around after we have shown Dior would make this whole angle - Beren, Dior and their family being completely isolated from any contact with humanity - improbable.

 

[MithLuin]

The Union of Maedhros naturally will involve interactions between many different groups, and we may want to structure the season by having a mini-plot in each location. At the very least, there will be 'key players' in each storyline when we come to them.

Húrin and Huor in Dor-lómin, along with their wives Morwen and Rían. We'll naturally want to spend a lot of time with these characters this season, and will thus have to develop some robust storylines here. Their reasons for joining the fight can be nuanced and involve much discussion.

Fingon the High King at Barad Eithel. Obviously, Maedhros will have to get him on board before anyone else. And Fingon will be working closely with the Men of Dor-lómin.

Nargothrond - Orodreth is not exactly pro-Fëanorean after the actions of Celegorm and Curufin and the death of Finrod. Nargothrond is headed in an 'absolute secrecy' direction, and joining the Union of Maedhros is not really for them. But then there is Gwindor. His brother was made captive in the Dagor Bragollach, he fought alongside Finrod, and he's going to want to join this fight against Morgoth, too. His relationship with Finduilas will also be a story we are telling this season, so he will likely be our point-of-view character in Nargothrond.

Doriath - Yeah, no. The girdle is shut, and what happens outside of it is barely of concern to Thingol. And he has no interest in opening diplomatic relations with the Fëanoreans after they killed his brother and tried to marry his daughter against her will. But Beleg and Mablung will want to act, and so how do they get involved in the battle? The renewed interactions between Doriath and the Men of Brethil may play a role.

The Falathrim and Círdan - They've been peripheral characters, but Círdan does not share the reluctance to go to war that some of the other elves seem to have. While the Union doesn't seem to really need a navy, there may be some key role that Círdan and his mariners play in the preparations for the battle.

The Fëanoreans - naturally, the Oath needs to come up, the tension between the brothers post Dagor Bragollach, and Caranthir's new role as a friend to Easterlings rather than Dwarves.

The Easterlings - storylines for Bor and Ulfang and their families.

The Dwarves of Belegost - King Azaghâl himself fights in this war, and this is a shift from their 'we'll supply weapons, but you fight your own wars while we stay safe in our mountains' mentality of the past.

Gondolin - will they or won't they? is a question that should be raised this season. How do they find out about the Union of Maedhros, and what ultimately determines Turgon to join his brother in the fight?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Well, it was told before that we assume everybody automatically knows all that the audience knows per default and that we try avoid narrative irony if only possible. Dior is for sure someone Emeldir would naturally care deeply about if she were only able to know of him... So if he does appear before she dies she is assumed to know about him - however improbable in story...
And the issue here is, that if were she to known she would for sure have send messengers and those would be mortals, and no mortal ever spoke to Beren again, as such it is improbable for them to have spoken or seen little Dior...
Dior seem to have no contact to humanity ever in his growing up, his mother is mortal but not a human and his father is a returned nobody knows exactly what.

Actually during the whole of his short life Dior never meets a proper human nor do his children, as such Elwing's choice is a natural one, untill the Bay of Balar she has never as much as seen a human - why should she suddenly choose to become one? At least Tuor is a "proper" human for Earendil to have an idea what this is [well, that is not completely true, Tuor only ever met any humans as fellow slaves and as his slaveowners for a period of only a few years as a teenager, but whatever, he had at least met them... even if his proper acculturation into humanity is very shaky too, there is at least some contact there. (Even if I do not get how he ever became a leader among humans at the Havens if he had to little experience to know how to buy himself an apple from a market - he probable know better how to sing one onto an apple tree when he fancies one but not how to properly buy one, but whatever)].

So Emeldir's being around after we have shown Dior would make this whole angle - Beren, Dior and their family being completely isolated from any contact with humanity - improbable.

Doesn't Elwing choose the fate of Elves instead of Men? Eärendil chooses his own fate because she chose to be an Elf.

 

[Odola]

Doesn't Elwing choose the fate of Elves instead of Men? Eärendil chooses his own fate because she chose to be an Elf.

indeed she does - and this is completely understandable - she does not know any no other lifestyle really - but Earendil is actually in the same position as her, because Tuor - while nominally a human - has not been raised as one and does not really know how to be one - the same issue with Elros - why those two (Earendil and Tuor) without much understanding what being a human even means do prefer it (Earendil would chose human if not for Elwing) needs an explanation imho - it is counterintuitive

Elwing herself is fine, clear and consistent - see was raise an elf on an elvish court with an elvish mother and elvish courtiers - she does not know nothing else

but this would be complicated by Emeldir knowing of Dior's existence, as Emeldir would be the connection between Dior and humanity, she would tell other humans of her grandson and those would claim him back - so it is cleaner to let her die before she can know of him

 

[Ange1e4e5]

but this would be complicated by Emeldir knowing of Dior's existence, as Emeldir would be the connection between Dior and humanity, she would tell other humans of her grandson and those would claim him back - so it is cleaner to let her die before she can know of him

We have a couple chances this season to kill her off and even if she were to try to visit, conditions for moving around Beleriand, specifically to Tol Galen which is on the other side of the subcontinent, are not... optimal.

 

[Octoburn]

How much time do we think should be focused on the "plague" story? Will there be much, or should it remain presented as it is in the Silmarillion/Narn, only shown in relation to the family of Hurin?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Re: Easterlings

I find it curious that Ulfang the Black is described as the chieftain of his tribe of Easterlings but his son Uldor the Accursed is the leader of the mutiny during the Nirnaeth. Was Ulfang unaware of the mutiny? Was he already dead and Uldor took up the plan (could have died before the Nirnaeth or during it)?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

How much time do we think should be focused on the "plague" story? Will there be much, or should it remain presented as it is in the Silmarillion/Narn, only shown in relation to the family of Hurin?

There may be time, depending on the layout of the season.

• Say we focus on Hurin and Huor in Gondolin for Episode 1,
• they return in Episode 2, we get some time to meet Galdor, courtship of Hurin and Morwen?
• Episode 3: Galdor is killed, Hurin and Morwen marry, Turin is born.
• Episode 4: Reactions to Beren and Luthien throughout Beleriand, Maedhros and Fingon conceive the Union
• Episode 5: The Alliance is beginning to take shape, debates on whether or not to join.
• Episode 6: In the meantime the Easterlings have arrived, possibly the Pukel-men? Sauron talks with some. Gwindor and Finduilas? They should be established as a couple before the Nirnaeth. Urwen/Lalaith is born
• Episode 7: Early military gains
• Episode 8: Plague; Urwen dies
• Episode 9: Bit of a lull; misinformation by Ulfang and Uldor? Debate in Gondolin? Courtship of Huor and Rian
• Episode 10: Preparations for the Nirnaeth
• Episode 11: Nirnaeth Part 1: Gelmir is executed, Gwindor is captured, Haldir is killed, trumpets.
• Episode 12: Nirnaeth Part 2: Trumpets are Turgon and Gondolin, Uldor reveals his colors but is killed by Maglor, Bor and his sons kill Ulfast and Ulwarth and are killed, Glaurung is wounded by Azaghal, Gothmog cuts Fingon in two, Hurin and Huor lead the last Hadorians to cover Turgon, Huor is killed, Hurin captured.

 

[MithLuin]

Notes:

We discussed storylines before settling on a theme.

Naturally, Húrin is the central character of the season, and we will take him from Gondolin to his capture in the Fens of Serech in Season 7. Early in the season, he will become Lord of Dor-lómin and marry Morwen. He clearly has Fingon's respect, as he defers to him in the battle. His desire to bring the fight to Morgoth is a strong motivation throughout.

In the Maedhros storyline, we see a new view of Morgoth as personally much weaker than he was as Melkor in Valinor - a view made clear to Morgoth's forces as well as to the Elves and Men. Morgoth's duel with Fingolfin and his loss of the silmaril to Lúthien drives home the point that Morgoth is not unassailable. Morgoth's lieutenant at Tol Sirion is defeated. Draugluin and Carcharoth are dead - and everyone knows that. There's a lack of leadership among Morgoth's forces. Also, there are baby dragons in Dorthonion. Waiting for them to grow up feels unwise. Morgoth's forces are not concentrated in Thangorodrim, but spread out throughout northern Beleriand, which means that they can be divided and conquered. The influx of new armies with the arrival of the Easterlings tips the scales in favor of the Union of Maedhros (seemingly). Time for Fingon and Maedhros to renew their close friendship.

In Gondolin, we will be dealing with Turgon's evolving view of his mission. He was sent to Gondolin to keep his people safe, yes, but also to prepare. Aredhel became impatient with the lands outside Gondolin being ignored, and wanted to make sure they were preparing for a purpose. In this season, Turgon will be dealing with the loss of Aredhel and Fingolfin, and figuring out how to fulfill his purpose. He will conclude that the moment is now and go to war in the Nirnaeth...but then, when was the moment? We'll also show Maeglin as he has settled in Gondolin, gaining followers, developing glowing blue swords, etc.

In Belegost, they have viewed the war with Morgoth as 'not their fight' for some time. They support the elves, and are happy to supply them with materials and assistance for their wars...but they have not been interested in fighting themselves to this point. What changes? Now, they know about the dragon. And they know that Maedhros is going to make an all-out push. So, they've become aware that the war will arrive at their doorstep all too soon. So, now is the time, because their neighbors have made some choices that make this the time.

In Doriath, Thingol declines to join the Union up front. Thingol could reject the union because Melian tells him that now is not the time. He could say that he thinks it's not the time, and that's the only reason he's not committing. There's tension over the silmaril and the Fëanoreans as well. Somehow, Beleg and Mablung decide to join the war anyway. Do they have the king's permission? Do they go with the Men of Brethil?

In Nargothrond, Orodreth will decline to join. But Gwindor will want to join. So we'll want to tell that story. Our focus will be on Gwindor (including his relationship with Finduilas), but not lose track of Gil-galad or Orodreth either. Also, Celebrimbor??

We'll deal with the Galadriel and Easterling storylines next time (and Sauron). The Easterlings are a large group, but not uniform/unified - multiple paths exist to bring them to Beleriand.

We decided that "Day Shall Come Again!" will be more powerful if all throughout the season characters are insisting that the day has come. The transition from amdir to estel will make the season hopeful. The amdir fails - it is not the day, and they do not succeed. But...they weren't wrong. Morgoth will be defeated. Just not at this time. So, we will see elements of hope and despair at the end of the season, with some very clear statements of estel: "Day shall come again!" and "From you and from me a new star shall arise" from Húrin and Huor. (And Turgon will send ships...) So the theme for the season is HOPE.

Before choosing the mid-point of the season, we'll want to work out the Sauron and Galadriel storylines and maybe start laying out some episodes.... but at a first pass, the Arrival of the Easterlings feels like it might be the turning point in the middle of the season.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

How are messages carried around Beleriand? I don't imagine it's like A Song of Ice and Fire where ravens are used between castles, though this could be used for Gondolin.

 

[Haerangil]

Messengers, message shouters, birds, smoke signals, beacons... all possible!

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Re: Thingol. It would be pretty out of character for Thingol to throw his hat behind anything headed by the Feanoreans given that two of them tried to have Lúthien wedded by force (and a poor grasp of Elven psychology), given he played almost no part in the Noldorin siege of Angband, much less Fingolfin's plans for an assault before the Dagor Bragollach.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Question about Handir and general character placement: do we want Handir to accompany his father to the Nirnaeth or hold the fort in Brethil? We don't really have many characters in Brethil (and admittedly not much chance since all but three are killed to a man) to show focus on this year aside from Húrin and Huor in the past circa the Dagor Bragollach, unless we want to have Beleg and Mablung accompany the Haladin to the Nirnaeth?