The Making of Paper

No idea i just made that one up

No problem. But if you started why do you not continue the concept? Where is it planted? Which of the Noldorin kingdoms bothers with it? Is it more hardy than other figs or is it kept alive by spells or by some controller fires placed nearby in winter? Nargothrond is further South, are there orchands there, is it processed there? We could then e.g. see Beren eating some figs when on his way there. Just finish your thought. But it must be a parthenocarpic variety or we come into the whole fig wasp problem - fig wasps have a geographically limited range into the North. So it does not propagate by seeds only by cuttings. So someone must have taken some cuttings though the Helcaraxë and kept them alive by spells. A committed gardener.
 
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Just brainstormi g

If we go further - then we now Inglor's son's wandering elves had some very good quality appels with them which earned even Sam's praise in TLOTR, and that Mirkwood elves import apples - so apples are not a genuinely general elvish thing. So I propose Inglor to be the gardener in question, tending to Nargothrond's orchands. And we would make Nargothrond the centre of the "'Valinorian fig' paper" production supplying all the Noldorin kingdoms. And Doriath, as the kings of Nargothrond are Thingol's kin. Could work. So we could have little Gildor being handed a apple tree cutting by his father when saying goodbye. Adds up.

We could also see a decline of Nargothrond's orchands when Inglor is no longer there and the hidden elves neglect tending to them in the Hurin story - neither the C-bros nor Orodreth being much into gardening...
 
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Let's keep this thread on topic - we're focused on paper, not textile arts here. (Unless you are suggesting writing on the textile, of course!)

Sorry, have overlooked this question before. We were talking about rag paper - among others. Rags were fabric before. So to check what kind of rags elves would have available would be to know what fabrics they had available to get ragged enough to be made into paper.
 
If we go further - then we now Inglor's son's wandering elves had some very good quality appels with them which earned even Sam's praise in TLOTR, and that Mirkwood elves import apples - so apples are not a genuinely general elvish thing.

Sure.The famous cordof!
 
Sure.The famous cordof!

Then why does Mirkwood import apples from humans, then? ;) Is Cordof a stricly Noldorin breed ot not? Not clear to me from you answer.

Sorry for the digression - we are talking about the Valinorian paper fig.
So @Haerangil - please do offer some backstory for you idea?
 
No idea. Climate maybe? Or the cordof is better raised in well tended orchards in Lindon along the coasts than in wild and densely wooded, mirkwood?

On the valinorean fig... i'm not too happy wirh that at the moment since i could imagine figs in more southern, at last "french" climate, south of the bay of Balar but not in Beleriand proper.Maybe reeds or sone kind of Valinorean mulberry tree could do the trick better... or they really use vellum instead.
 
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... or they really use vellum instead.

Still the "pipe-weed history" Tolkien would have loved this whole dicussion for sure. ;)

But I find it interesting that in the Jackson movies - beyong The Hobbit book which Bilbo writes in - which is obviously paper (see the top edge) -

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all the other sheets (that I do remember) are made to look in a way that they could pass off as parchment.

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The edges here simulate the sharp edges of parchment being cut with the sharp knive from the frame.

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They deliberately make their paper resemble parchment - except for the 1st book example - to keep the visual "antique" feel of the story.
 
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Still the "pipe-weed history" Tolkien would have loved this whole dicussion for sure. ;)

But I find it interesting that in the Jackson movies - beyong The Hobbit book which Bilbo writes in - which is obviously paper (see the top edge) -

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all the other sheets (that I do remember) are made to look in a way that they could pass off as parchment.

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The edges here simulate the sharp edges of parchment being cut with the sharp knive from the frame.

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They deliberately make their paper resemble parchment - except for the 1st book example - to keep the visual "antique" feel of the story.

And right so since JRRT did so himself with some of his maps. Now parchment is animal skins, goat, sheep, cow...
And we know elves knew these animals and possibly either herded them or kept them around half-tamed half-self-sufficient.
 
And right so since JRRT did so himself with some of his maps. Now parchment is animal skins, goat, sheep, cow...
And we know elves knew these animals and possibly either herded them or kept them around half-tamed half-self-sufficient.

Yeah, but I find it interesting how the paper in the Hobbit book serves as a gate into the story - we see something very familiar connecting us from our world into the story but once we alredy are immersed into the story we mostly see parchment-like sheets. And most of the viewers do not even notice it consciously. The reverse of which I am afraid of when we suddenly see paper on Orodreth's desk - I fear this would get - at least some of - the viewers visually out of the immersion in the pseudo-pre-historic timeframe.

BTW Even the envelope Gandalf provides Bilbo to put the One Ring in seems to be parchment/vellum:

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1:24
 
Sorry, have overlooked this question before. We were talking about rag paper - among others. Rags were fabric before. So to check what kind of rags elves would have available would be to know what fabrics they had available to get ragged enough to be made into paper.

Correct, that conversation is on topic for this thread. Other discussions about fabric belong more appropriately in the Costumes forum.

As for the color of the paper...I do not think that all paper need be bright white. Certainly, there are situations where grey paper or brown paper could be useful, and I see no problem with depicting that on the show.

If the paper does need to be white, it could still be an off-white shade to denote its origins.

If bleaching is required, it could occur during the paper-making, true, but it could also occur when the fabric is made (in the case of rag paper) or after the paper is made. The Elves have been able to make white clothing ever since they reached Valinor (in fact, the Vanyar show a strong preference for it in our show). And as has been pointed out, the sun is great at bleaching materials out if you are clever enough to make use of that property.

As for the texture - yes, homemade paper tends to be very rough. One reason why is that homemade paper is not typically pressed to achieve smoothness. I think that adding a pressing step would make the paper a more useful product. Other steps to finish the paper could be included as well.

I do like the suggestion of a 'Valinorean paper tree'! That fits with Valinor having plants and animals that are not seen in Middle-earth.

Would elves gather enough rags to have a high volume paper production? (Do elves actually use linen? Do elves have access to cotton (this would have to be imported from afar). Do elves keep sheep to make wool? Do they make wild silk?)

What type of volume are you imagining? I certainly wasn't picturing a booming paper trade! Rather, that they can make and use paper, so they do, but they aren't wasteful and simply make what they need. Clothing naturally has a much shorter lifespan than do elves, so all of their clothing would eventually become rags. A method to recycle this material into something else that is useful would likely be appealing to the elves. No doubt they would use magic to preserve their clothing a little longer than expected (or in some rare cases, maybe indefinitely - like for Thingol's grey cloak from Valinor). But in general, yes, elves would have some quantity of rags to be recycled available in their communities.

Elves at Cuiviénen, the Avari, and the Elves on the journey to Valinor all wore clothing woven from plant-based fibers in Silm Film Season 2. So, presumably yes to the linen and flax. They did not make use of silk until they reached Valinor, but certainly post-Season 2 the Noldor have silk, yes. We haven't mentioned sheep specifically, I don't think, but I imagine wool is available in Beleriand. We did mention alpacas as possible animals the Noldor would have had with them when they started crossing the Helcaraxë (see the Season 3 Episode 9 Script Outline). While cotton could exist in Valinor, I don't think we've pictured it existing in Beleriand.

[Do elves use magic for retting? Flax and other plant fiber retting is a nasty, smelly and environmentally harmful process - I propose humans to be the ones doing it and elves buying spin-ready flax roving from the humans]. ...I also propose humans to be parchment makers. Hide processing is also a nasty process the humans would not be above. And humans keep domesticated animals that they do process. Vellum is basically fine parchment - just made of calfskin.

The process of retting removes the pectin from the fibers. It is possible that the elves use an enzymatic retting process rather than the traditional 'soak it in a pond for two weeks' method. If you think this version is more pleasant, it can be the basis for the magical elven retting. But the environmental impact is, on some level, a matter of scale. Elves can reduce that impact by not producing a large volume of material (whether that be flax or paper). As for the fact that it stinks - temporarily, yes. The paper doesn't stink.

I maintain - strongly and emphatically - that the Noldor are indeed chemists, and that their skill in this field rivals the Dwarves. There are differences in approach between them, and not a complete overlap, but it is simply not the case that all Elves would 'avoid' such things - because how else did the Noldor master metallurgy? They have had steel since Valinor. And they need not 'break a thing to find out what it is' - they can gain knowledge of how the world is made directly from Aulë in all the years he tutored them in Valinor. Science, knowledge of the world, (as opposed to technology or applied knowledge) is a pursuit the Valar (or at least Aulë, anyway) encourage. Understanding the natural world is something all Elves seem to have a strong affinity for, but in the Noldor, that takes the form of being master chemists (among other things).

The main issue with using humans as the primary source of materials for the Noldor is that they enter First Age Beleriand so late in the story. In Silm Film, Finrod meets Bëor in FA 340, and then the people of Bëor move to Nargothrond, adopting the lifestyle of the elves of Nargothrond in part. Fingon takes Hador into his service in FA 392. So, sure, the humans could make supplies that the Elves would trade with them for, but in these cases, the Elves were supplying themselves for hundreds of years before the humans arrived. And in Gondolin, no trade with humans or Dwarves is possible, yet we know they have books. Pengolod is a character in our story. As was Rúmil in Season 2. So, while it is possible that flax is grown and processed in, say, Dor-lómin and then flax roving is traded to other places...I would find it hard to believe that the Elves lacked a source of processed flax prior to that time because...the process of making it is too distasteful?

Also a reminder that Elves in Silm Film are not vegetarian. They do hunt, eat meat, and process leather hides themselves. They raise horses, and presumably keep other domestic animals. The Elves who crossed the Helcaraxë wear fur as a significant reminder of that experience. Aredhel's fur cloak (made for her by her Fëanorean cousins) features in Seasons 4 &5. It's true that they don't typically make their clothing out of hides, but making parchment is not something outside the pale of what they would do. It is the Dwarves who are naturally uninclined to animal husbandry.

As such I propose to have "Orodreth's documents" contain a variety of mediums, shades and styles.

Rather, I think it would make sense to consider the material of each prop, and some variety may exist within our show. I don't think Orodreth has a stack of different materials in various shades sitting on his desk. He would likely have one or two, in whatever quantity he needs. But we could reach a different conclusion about the material used for Aredhel's pop-up book that she constructs for Maeglin in Season 5, or the copy of Lúthien's song written down by Daeron and gifted to the dwarves of Belegost in Season 3. Since most materials are going to be made where they are being used, there can be a lot of variety in how things are made from place to place.
 
If the paper does need to be white, it could still be an off-white shade to denote its origins.

I would strongly propose that. And I would make it more fancy than human or dwarven ones, so maybe some delicate leaves incorporated in the edges - something to give it more of an elvish artistic feel.


The process of retting removes the pectin from the fibers. It is possible that the elves use an enzymatic retting process rather than the traditional 'soak it in a pond for two weeks' method. If you think this version is more pleasant, it can be the basis for the magical elven retting. But the environmental impact is, on some level, a matter of scale. Elves can reduce that impact by not producing a large volume of material (whether that be flax or paper). As for the fact that it stinks - temporarily, yes. The paper doesn't stink.

Of couse not. The paper making process shown in the video (the one where the bark strips are retted) above would - but that it not exactly what elves must follow.

I maintain - strongly and emphatically - that the Noldor are indeed chemists, and that their skill in this field rivals the Dwarves. There are differences in approach between them, and not a complete overlap, but it is simply not the case that all Elves would 'avoid' such things - because how else did the Noldor master metallurgy? They have had steel since Valinor. And they need not 'break a thing to find out what it is' - they can gain knowledge of how the world is made directly from Aulë in all the years he tutored them in Valinor. Science, knowledge of the world, (as opposed to technology or applied knowledge) is a pursuit the Valar (or at least Aulë, anyway) encourage. Understanding the natural world is something all Elves seem to have a strong affinity for, but in the Noldor, that takes the form of being master chemists (among other things).

Interesting. We never see elves do any chemistry in Tolkien, but if they do in our story, it would be nice to have the differences of their approach preserved.


The main issue with using humans as the primary source of materials for the Noldor is that they enter First Age Beleriand so late in the story. In Silm Film, Finrod meets Bëor in FA 340, and then the people of Bëor move to Nargothrond, adopting the lifestyle of the elves of Nargothrond in part. Fingon takes Hador into his service in FA 392. So, sure, the humans could make supplies that the Elves would trade with them for, but in these cases, the Elves were supplying themselves for hundreds of years before the humans arrived. And in Gondolin, no trade with humans or Dwarves is possible, yet we know they have books.

Handwritten books on parchment sheets were quite common. I do believe Gondolin's elves do hunt mountain goats?
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Highly recommend the article above - short, nice style and informative - [imho it shows why elves would love parchment... A far more "individual" material, far less an industralized one.]

Pengolod is a character in our story. As was Rúmil in Season 2. So, while it is possible that flax is grown and processed in, say, Dor-lómin and then flax roving is traded to other places...I would find it hard to believe that the Elves lacked a source of processed flax prior to that time because...the process of making it is too distasteful?

That is part of the problem. Flax needs fields. If elves use mostly what grows naturally or semi-wild, their sources would be more varied - as are the textiles found archeologically found in the older human layers. There one finds textiles made from stinging nettels or make e.g. from finely stripped tree bark. Only after a plant has been fully domesticated by humans it kind of "monopolizes" its given area. The more "wild" a resource it he more varied it tends to be.

The other thing - if what elves make is generally "rare" then the moment more of this same is commonly available - as the humans make more of a given thing - naturally it would be used for more "mundane" application. The rules of the market would apply even to elves to an extent.

Also a reminder that Elves in Silm Film are not vegetarian. They do hunt, eat meat, and process leather hides themselves. They raise horses, and presumably keep other domestic animals. The Elves who crossed the Helcaraxë wear fur as a significant reminder of that experience. Aredhel's fur cloak (made for her by her Fëanorean cousins) features in Seasons 4 &5. It's true that they don't typically make their clothing out of hides, but making parchment is not something outside the pale of what they would do. It is the Dwarves who are naturally uninclined to animal husbandry.

Parchment I could very much see for elves. Still we know of elves hunting, but we nevers see elvish cattle anywhere. Would they have some semi-wild herds? Still would they eat and skin animals under they care? They do not do this with their horses nor dogs? I could see them milk semi-wild cattle, but am not sure about them killing them.

Rather, I think it would make sense to consider the material of each prop, and some variety may exist within our show.

All for that.

I don't think Orodreth has a stack of different materials in various shades sitting on his desk.

Would he not get correspondance from different realms and cultures? Would that not be reflected in the variety of materials?


He would likely have one or two, in whatever quantity he needs. But we could reach a different conclusion about the material used for Aredhel's pop-up book that she constructs for Maeglin in Season 5, or the copy of Lúthien's song written down by Daeron and gifted to the dwarves of Belegost in Season 3. Since most materials are going to be made where they are being used, there can be a lot of variety in how things are made from place to place.

All for that too.
 
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Ah. I see there is yet again another underlying question that we need to address.

Are elves farmers or hunter gatherers?

Elves at Cuiviénen can certainly be hunter gatherers. We will see them using a lot of 'found objects' in their material culture early in Season 2. And no doubt some of the 'early elf' practices are retained by the Avari and (to a lesser extent) by the Nandor. But for the Elves who go to Valinor, the Calaquendi, a lot changes from that point forward.

One detail we know about Valinor is that Yavanna has wheat fields there, and that the elves begin to make lembas. So, if they were not farmers growing crops before...they are now. One decision that we made for Silm Film is that elven farming practices can be distinguished from human farming with an absence of monoculture. So, the elves would not have vast fields of a single crop, but rather multiple crops intensely grown in the same plot. (Ie, 'three sisters' method rather than crop rotation to maintain the health of the soil). This conversation happened within the context of Season 4, when the two camps of the Noldor were established around Lake Mithrim. Fields of crops will be necessary to the survival of Gondolin. The Hidden City needs to cultivate its own food.

We know the elves keep horses. Not that there are wild horses that they manage to tame and ride, but that they have mearas from Valinor that they brought over in the Swanships deliberately. Also, we did give the elves crossing the Helcaraxë herds to begin the journey with. The script outline specifically calls out alpaca and oxen (these creatures do not survive the passage, so they have to start over in Middle-earth). Elves would not, however, have herds of pigs. Those are a bit overly destructive and not agreeable to the elves in our story (or, rather, particularly disagreeable to the NANDOR, who would have different mores than other elves).

We have specified certain hunting methods as 'human' rather than 'elven' - so, for instance, the use of beaters or controlled burns to flush out prey is something humans may do, but elves will not in our story. The use of packs of hunting hounds is also a 'human' method - associated with the House of Haleth in our story. We have shown hunting of wild boar in Gondolin. We have not shown wild goats being hunted there, IIRC, but that is possible. Keeping tame goats is also possible.

So, yes - elves can have fields and herds. I hope that that helps to clarify what is or is not a limitation on what materials the elves of Beleriand have available to them.
 
Ah. I see there is yet again another underlying question that we need to address.

Are elves farmers or hunter gatherers?

Elves at Cuiviénen can certainly be hunter gatherers. We will see them using a lot of 'found objects' in their material culture early in Season 2. And no doubt some of the 'early elf' practices are retained by the Avari and (to a lesser extent) by the Nandor. But for the Elves who go to Valinor, the Calaquendi, a lot changes from that point forward.

One detail we know about Valinor is that Yavanna has wheat fields there, and that the elves begin to make lembas. So, if they were not farmers growing crops before...they are now. One decision that we made for Silm Film is that elven farming practices can be distinguished from human farming with an absence of monoculture. So, the elves would not have vast fields of a single crop, but rather multiple crops intensely grown in the same plot. (Ie, 'three sisters' method rather than crop rotation to maintain the health of the soil). This conversation happened within the context of Season 4, when the two camps of the Noldor were established around Lake Mithrim. Fields of crops will be necessary to the survival of Gondolin. The Hidden City needs to cultivate its own food.

We know the elves keep horses. Not that there are wild horses that they manage to tame and ride, but that they have mearas from Valinor that they brought over in the Swanships deliberately. Also, we did give the elves crossing the Helcaraxë herds to begin the journey with. The script outline specifically calls out alpaca and oxen (these creatures do not survive the passage, so they have to start over in Middle-earth). Elves would not, however, have herds of pigs. Those are a bit overly destructive and not agreeable to the elves in our story (or, rather, particularly disagreeable to the NANDOR, who would have different mores than other elves).

We have specified certain hunting methods as 'human' rather than 'elven' - so, for instance, the use of beaters or controlled burns to flush out prey is something humans may do, but elves will not in our story. The use of packs of hunting hounds is also a 'human' method - associated with the House of Haleth in our story. We have shown hunting of wild boar in Gondolin. We have not shown wild goats being hunted there, IIRC, but that is possible. Keeping tame goats is also possible.

So, yes - elves can have fields and herds. I hope that that helps to clarify what is or is not a limitation on what materials the elves of Beleriand have available to them.

Several questions:

So horses were bought from the Feanorians by the other Houses of the Noldor? Has Fëanor allowed it?

Do Sindar have their own breeds of horses?

Goats are even more destructive than pigs, wild boars live in the forests and so can pigs (see the feral hogs in the US). But where there are goats no new trees grow as goats would eat any sapling. So why goats when no pigs?

Would elves bothers to have flax fields?

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And the lack of any relation of cattle in Tolkien is strange, historic cattle was very important. But - as far I remember - we never see cattle (sheep are mentioned in the "mutton" troll episode in The Hobbit) appear anywhere in the texts? Maybe cattle is so obvious it does not need to be mentioned?
 

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And the lack of any relation of cattle in Tolkien is strange, historic cattle was very important. But - as far I remember - we never see cattle (sheep are mentioned in the "mutton" troll episode in The Hobbit) appear anywhere in the texts? Maybe cattle is so obvious it does not need to be mentioned?

At least one mention of keeping a cow is mentioned, in the Cat and the Moon song! Keeping a horned cow would imply that such a thing was common. Searching through the rest of the texts, Legolas makes a metaphor of the hobbits being "driven like cattle", and Beorn and the people of Esgaroth are both said to keep cattle.

But this is getting rather off-topic. I have no personal problem with some Elves having flax fields. But I am rather unconcerned with this whole paper discussion. Just wanted to throw in my two cents on the cow thing.
 
At least one mention of keeping a cow is mentioned, in the Cat and the Moon song! Keeping a horned cow would imply that such a thing was common. Searching through the rest of the texts, Legolas makes a metaphor of the hobbits being "driven like cattle", and Beorn and the people of Esgaroth are both said to keep cattle.

Great, thanks!
So we have hobbits and Breelandes, Beornings and Lakepeople. Those are mortals.
And then the reference of Legolas. Has he just seen that being done - by humans - or has he potentially done this himself?

But this is getting rather off-topic.

No really off-topic. Cowhide is a main souce of parchment.

I have no personal problem with some Elves having flax fields.

Then we should see them (somewhere in the landscape in the background at some times), e.g. when flying over Gondolin or some abandoned fields going wild in Dorthonion (of course depending on the seasons).

But I am rather unconcerned with this whole paper discussion.

Thank you for reading it regardless then and contibuting valuable info to it.
 
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Goats are even more destructive than pigs, wild boars live in the forests and so can pigs (see the feral hogs in the US). But where there are goats no new trees grow as goats would eat any sapling. So why goats when no pigs?

Not necessarily, we use Heidschnucken to keep natural heaths in their wanted state, in the Alps Chamois play a similar part.They are quite modest and undemanding animals.

As for sheep and Cattle... the elves at last have names for them

As there is a Quenya term for sheepfold and gnomish word for shepherd i believe they kept and herded sheep.There are also Goldogrin words for cowhouse/cattle and certainly ox, kine, bull, cow...

Their words for pig however always seem to imply strength, size and violence, they seem to refer to wild pigs and boar only so i doubt they had domesticated the animal. Theres words for barn and barnfowl as well btw.
 
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Not necessarily, we use Heidschnucken to keep natural heaths in their wanted state, in the Alps Chamois play a similar part.They are quite modest and undemanding animals.

As for sheep and Cattle... the elves at last have names for them

As there is a Quenya term for sheepfold and gnomish word for shepherd i believe they kept and herded sheep.There are also Goldogrin words for cowhouse/cattle and certainly ox, kine, bull, cow...


Then we should see them, e.g. Beren passig them going into or leaving Nargothrond etc. etc somewhere in the background.
 
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