The Making of Paper
- Thread starter Haerangil
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Odola
Well-Known Member
So... Bilbo has soMEOne to import paper for him TO Rivendell FROM the shire? Where... it is so comm8n Hobbits use the material as TP?
Bilbo has to get his pipeweed regularly anyway so adding several sheets of paper seems not a big deal. Done pobably by his friends the dwarves with their regular caravans going East to West and back again. They do not even have to enter Rivendell each time, the goods can be picked up by some of the elvish guards or left in safe location to be picked up. I am sure Bilbo has a way to pay them - should they insist on it - but I doubt all of them would.
And there is one reference to paper that I have remembered myself - but it is hyphenated so Ruth could not find it:
For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large waste-paper basket. Dora was Drogo's sister and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century.
If hobbits have something that can be recognisael instatly as a waste-paper basket that paper must be a commodity. So TP is not out of question imho, at least for the higher classes.
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Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Pipeweed is a popular thing with travelling rangers, dwarves, Wizards...
We know the shire and Bree both export it to some extend but... (toilet)paper?
Personally I'd find it by FAR funnyer, and not lesser logical or believable, if the Rangers used the precious handmade elven-paper from rivendell, a substance which humans have forgotten about because their short lifespan and missing passion lacks the span of time and commitment to make it in its very long timeconsuming process - and use it as payment to sustain their herb-inhaling habit... and the hobbits just use it to write letters and after that reuse the waste-paper for flypaper and TP
We know the shire and Bree both export it to some extend but... (toilet)paper?
Personally I'd find it by FAR funnyer, and not lesser logical or believable, if the Rangers used the precious handmade elven-paper from rivendell, a substance which humans have forgotten about because their short lifespan and missing passion lacks the span of time and commitment to make it in its very long timeconsuming process - and use it as payment to sustain their herb-inhaling habit... and the hobbits just use it to write letters and after that reuse the waste-paper for flypaper and TP
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Odola
Well-Known Member
I do not think they would export that (TP), just could use that fo themselves... But normal paper would probably be present as label and packging when exporting pipeweed - for hobbits paper is "normal". No problem for Bilbo to get some extra staples of empty sheets added to the order.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Your sold to the idea of hobbits being the sole and only inventors, producers, suppliers and exporters of TP. I won't argue any longer...
Wherever a culture that has little interest in any technology more complicated than a watermill or forge bellows and which is largely illiterate got that idea, knowledge ,technology or needs for.
Wherever a culture that has little interest in any technology more complicated than a watermill or forge bellows and which is largely illiterate got that idea, knowledge ,technology or needs for.
Odola
Well-Known Member
I am not sure TP existsts at all in ME. I just said such a possibility cannot be excluded for the Shire hobbits - and this refered to a remark that Nicholas Palazzo made about some biological functions of ME inhabitants. Whereas hobbits as a whole for sure use a lot of "normal paper" - same levels of their society involve in regular and frequent correspondence - to the extent that waste-paper baskets are an obvious recognisable necessity. That much is obvious from the texts.
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Haerangil
Well-Known Member
It speaks for a limited distinct class, within a specific local, isolated culture which happens to be the distinct group the supposed narrator comes from. It's interesting, but to draw too much from it is still unwarranted assumption. We know hobbits made use of paper.
Odola
Well-Known Member
How do you call that class isolated? And it is clearly not (only) local - see Merry and Pipin who are not from Hobbiton themselves. It was maybe not the most numerous class in the Shire but is still the most dominant one and seems to have been distributed evenly throughout the country.
If paper was used to the extent that it is described in the texts it has been familiar even to the illiterate. Doubt those who were using it made it themselves. You need not to be literate to make paper. Still you have also merchands and postmen and policemen in the Shire of whim at least their superiors would need to file some reports from time to time. You would have to have some kind of pre-lawyers - as wills are written and signed and so seem contracts - and those seem - theoretically at least - to be able to be contested if something is found amiss.
Paper is not treated with the awe that some of the imported goods are described with - e.g. the toys from Dale. So it seems to be a local and obvious product in the Shire.
But still paper seems not to be obvious in Gondor which is a high culture further in the South with greater technology and lusher vegetation (and by no means lacking in rags either - if talking of rag paper). And we know that paper was not obvious in Gondor even at a time when the highly advanced technology of Numenor has not yet been forgotten.
| Parchment | RK-1 | 1- Minas Tirith | Gandalf's room | Narrator | There were candles on the table and rolls of parchment. |
One logical conclusion one can draw from this is that hobbits invented paper and nobody significant really noticed the implications.
You can of course choose not to come to this conclusion, and think paper simply omittred randomly at other places.
But imho that is not taking the texts and the meticulous author completely seriously.
Because - why then does Faramir not omit the other exotic writing stuff that he mentions?
It is not that the writing materials are not mentioned in Gondor at all - they are - but that paper is missing on that list.
And that at the same that it is obvious in the Shire.
As I said - you can choose to not follow my conclusion but still you cannot call it unwarranted by the text - of tLotR at least.
I found this discussion below on the topic - and here the author suspects Dale as the origin of hobbit paper because of the cracker-paper left on lawn after Bilbo's birtday party - but to me this is not necessary convincing - the goods from Dale have been ordered a year in advance and the toys inside are what the hobbits marvel at and not the cracker-paper itself - were it something imported and rare they would have taken it and not left it randomly behind. There was time enough for Bilbo to get the toys wrapped in cracker-paper locally - and even to have the mark of "Dale" be painted on them as it did confirm his dragon story that few in the Shire believed to be true - as party-crackers themselves seem to be familiar to the hobbits, it is just the high quality of the toys inside that is not. I do not think the hobbits would be able to read the Dale sign if written originally in Dale - to far away for the script to be readable for them. I think Dale propably used dwarvish runes. Of course some hobbits in regular economical contact with dwarves might be able read runes too, still - it does not seem to by the way that runes are described - neither in the Hobbit not in tLotR.
And that is the issue that hobbits seamed to have had paper already also while Dale was yet in ruins - and we do not see paper in Mirkwood - as far I do remember.
What I find interesting is the mention of "Yellowskin, or the Yearbook of Tuckborough" - while this might refer just to the binding, it might also suggest the book itself having been written originally on parchment.
I never imagined I'd enjoy pondering PAPER this much! - Middle Earth Ranger Forum
middleearthrangers.org
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We know that the Shire is based on the English countryside at the time of the Diamond Jubilee (1897). Thus, the ubiquitous nature of paper, the existence of a postal service, and the necessity of lawyers and wills is quite natural in this context.
The world of the dwarves in the Hobbit is more akin to the Norse tales their names are drawn from. The Elder Edda dates to roughly 1000 AD.
One place this is shown quite clearly is in the parting words of Bilbo with the dwarves of Erebor after the Quest.
Balin: ""Good-bye and good luck, wherever you fare! If ever you visit us again, when our halls are made fair once more, then the feast shall indeed be splendid!"
Bilbo: "If ever you are passing my way, don't wait to knock! Tea is at four; but any of you are welcome at any time!"
They are saying the same thing to one another, but the language used emphasizes that they come from different cultures. Even so, Thorin certainly writes up a contract and leaves a letter for Bilbo when he visits Bag End at the beginning of the story. There is nothing to suggest that the dwarves are unaware of paper or somehow adverse to or unfamiliar with its use.
So, there is (quite naturally) a culture clash between the Shire and the rest of Middle-earth, and the hobbits leaving the Shire are being exposed to that world in much the way the reader is - with wonder at something different than their everyday life. This is a deliberate device used by J.R.R. Tolkien that has been pointed out many times. So, no, it's not surprising that other writing surfaces (such as parchment) are named outside the Shire.
It is not that Merry and Pippin come from a different part of the Shire; it's that they are gentry. As are Bilbo and Frodo. The Gaffer's comments about Mr. Bilbo teaching Sam his letters suggests that this is uncommon among hobbits of his own class. There are sharp class distinctions in the Shire, and literacy is expected in the gentry whilst being unexpected among the working class. The post office is thus kept busy by only a portion of the population of the Shire. We are also aware of what types of books hobbits like to read and write - genealogies, and books where information that they already know is recorded.
Faramir is describing the library of Minas Tirith, a city that has been continuously inhabited for 3,000 years. While it is not impossible to have long-lasting paper pages, it is true that if you want a document to last over a thousand years, it would make sense to preserve it on parchment or metal tablets or carved into stone. Númenor was very into preservation - who knows, maybe they had acid-free paper? The materials he is describing can date from the time of the founding of Minas Tirith. That, I think, is the main reason there are so many 'divers' methods in play. No one is going to suggest that Gandalf read the actual first hand account of Isildur concerning the finding of the Ring...off a piece of paper 3,000 years old! Even parchment is unlikely to last more than 1,000 years unless stored in remarkably good conditions... Though what the scroll was made from is not specified, it could have been a carved metal scroll. From the text of the scroll, it is clear that Isildur was writing it with the intention of creating a long-lasting record: "...records of it shall be left in Gondor, where also dwell the heirs of Elendil, lest a time come when the memory of these great matters shall grow dim."
And yet both Gandalf and Faramir name books prominently as what the library of Minas Tirith consists of; assuming that the books are not made with paper pages is an assumption, and one not supported by the text. We know that a copy of the Red Book makes its way to Gondor and is stored in this very library.
So, no, I do not think that hobbits invented paper, nor do I think that the rest of Middle-earth outside the Shire is paperless. One could argue that paper features more prominently in the hobbits' material culture than in other places in Middle-earth (Rohan, for instance, does not have a postal service...), but to make this absolute is probably to take the reading too far and to misunderstand the context of the Shire.
The world of the dwarves in the Hobbit is more akin to the Norse tales their names are drawn from. The Elder Edda dates to roughly 1000 AD.
One place this is shown quite clearly is in the parting words of Bilbo with the dwarves of Erebor after the Quest.
Balin: ""Good-bye and good luck, wherever you fare! If ever you visit us again, when our halls are made fair once more, then the feast shall indeed be splendid!"
Bilbo: "If ever you are passing my way, don't wait to knock! Tea is at four; but any of you are welcome at any time!"
They are saying the same thing to one another, but the language used emphasizes that they come from different cultures. Even so, Thorin certainly writes up a contract and leaves a letter for Bilbo when he visits Bag End at the beginning of the story. There is nothing to suggest that the dwarves are unaware of paper or somehow adverse to or unfamiliar with its use.
So, there is (quite naturally) a culture clash between the Shire and the rest of Middle-earth, and the hobbits leaving the Shire are being exposed to that world in much the way the reader is - with wonder at something different than their everyday life. This is a deliberate device used by J.R.R. Tolkien that has been pointed out many times. So, no, it's not surprising that other writing surfaces (such as parchment) are named outside the Shire.
It is not that Merry and Pippin come from a different part of the Shire; it's that they are gentry. As are Bilbo and Frodo. The Gaffer's comments about Mr. Bilbo teaching Sam his letters suggests that this is uncommon among hobbits of his own class. There are sharp class distinctions in the Shire, and literacy is expected in the gentry whilst being unexpected among the working class. The post office is thus kept busy by only a portion of the population of the Shire. We are also aware of what types of books hobbits like to read and write - genealogies, and books where information that they already know is recorded.
Faramir is describing the library of Minas Tirith, a city that has been continuously inhabited for 3,000 years. While it is not impossible to have long-lasting paper pages, it is true that if you want a document to last over a thousand years, it would make sense to preserve it on parchment or metal tablets or carved into stone. Númenor was very into preservation - who knows, maybe they had acid-free paper? The materials he is describing can date from the time of the founding of Minas Tirith. That, I think, is the main reason there are so many 'divers' methods in play. No one is going to suggest that Gandalf read the actual first hand account of Isildur concerning the finding of the Ring...off a piece of paper 3,000 years old! Even parchment is unlikely to last more than 1,000 years unless stored in remarkably good conditions... Though what the scroll was made from is not specified, it could have been a carved metal scroll. From the text of the scroll, it is clear that Isildur was writing it with the intention of creating a long-lasting record: "...records of it shall be left in Gondor, where also dwell the heirs of Elendil, lest a time come when the memory of these great matters shall grow dim."
And yet both Gandalf and Faramir name books prominently as what the library of Minas Tirith consists of; assuming that the books are not made with paper pages is an assumption, and one not supported by the text. We know that a copy of the Red Book makes its way to Gondor and is stored in this very library.
So, no, I do not think that hobbits invented paper, nor do I think that the rest of Middle-earth outside the Shire is paperless. One could argue that paper features more prominently in the hobbits' material culture than in other places in Middle-earth (Rohan, for instance, does not have a postal service...), but to make this absolute is probably to take the reading too far and to misunderstand the context of the Shire.
Odola
Well-Known Member
Both Thorin's letter and the contract might as well have been on parchment also. And Thorin was in the Shire and it's surrounding for at least several hours before - so were the other dwarves, no problems of having had aquired some local paper then. No reason to assume dwarves to have or produce to paper on a regular basisc for their very own use. But they are merchands and able to adapt to local customs in their business deals. They go regularly through the Shire - they might even buy paper there regularly if they happen to need some or find it usefull for something.
Exactly what I said - gentry is not a "local class" in the Shire. And the postmen - while not gentry themselves - must be at least able to read the addresses correctly.
And the literacy level is considerable:
Small hobbit-children ran after the cart all through Hobbiton and right up the hill. It had a cargo of fireworks, as they rightly guessed. At Bilbo’s front door the old man began to unload: there were great bundles of fireworks of all sorts and shapes, each labelled with a large red G and the elf-rune, .
That was Gandalf’s mark, of course, and the old man was Gandalf the Wizard, whose fame in the Shire was due mainly to his skill with fires, smokes, and lights. His real business was far more difficult and dangerous, but the Shire-folk knew nothing about it. To them he was just one of the ‘attractions’ at the Party. Hence the excitement of the hobbit-children. ‘G for Grand!’ they shouted, and the old man smiled.
Hobbiton's children are clearly literate - their class is not mentioned and it might have been mostly Bilbo's doing, but still...
While I can agree with some of the ideas - still this is what copyists are for. Records and important chronicles and work of literature get copied regularly - and then the newest copies would have been on paper - if that would have been availble - high quality one - but paper still. But paper is not mentioned at all by Faramir or nowhere in Minas Tirith - do we see any posters on the house walls, paper bags for apples - paper sheets for notes passed between the guards, for receipts in the Houses of Healing, for paper bags for healing herbs? Do not remember any such an instance. And the Red Book is produced by hobbits on their own material - so no problem there. The copies could be made on parchment or Gondor might have learned to import or even to make paper from hobbits in the FA - no problem there either.
My assumption is that those books are handwritten on parchment - as that was the general usus and the baseline of what to be expected. The assumption that they are on paper would be to me on the same level as to assume them having been printed - an extraodinary assumption and as such in need of some proof from the text.
Exactly the lack of any paper context other than the Shire makes me assume Shire the origin of it. We have clearly the highest concentration of paper in the Shie - and most often one has the hightest concentration of something at its very source. That is the most natural assumption and all other- while possible - would have to be meassured against it.
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Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Clear examples of deductive fallacy, a postman being able to deliver a letter right doesn't imply he is literate, neither does Children recognizing a symbol. And of course the gentry is a LOCAL class hence the shire itself is local.
The other examples are classic Faulty generalization, it's insufficient samples and generalization from the particular.
The other examples are classic Faulty generalization, it's insufficient samples and generalization from the particular.
Odola
Well-Known Member
A postman has usually serveral of the letters to deliver and has to decipher the addresses in various handwritings and many diverse abbrevations - this is basic literacy - maybe he would not make it though a "War and Peace" but he is able to decipher letters and put them together.
Same with the children - they are clearly taught - not only they do recognise the letter but know what words start with it - they have a basic (pre-)literacy stage already acquired. I assume most of the adult Rohirrim riders would not be this advanced.
I could say same of the assumption that e.g. Gondor has any paper - as I do not remember any prof from the text that it does - so it seems to have even less info to generalize from. But would this bring the discussion any further? No. So I will refrain from doing that.
By the way the Book of Mazarbul seems to been intended as parchment we have some pages Tolkien made and the burn marks and damage on it resemble that of burned parchment, not of paper (even if the pages themselves are made of paper, this is deliberately made not to look like paper by Tolkien):
Crisp as a Poppadom
Fire is a constant hazard in libraries, and most collections of historic manuscripts have some burnt parchment. Certainly the British Library has its share, including parts of the Cotton collection. Most older manuscripts were written on parchment which, being animal skin, does not respond to...
blogs.bl.uk
this above on the right is paper that is deliberately artificially made to look like parchment - as burned paper looks like this:
Tolkien seems to have burned the paper and then mostly cut the burnholes back to achieve edges that do resemble parchment holes, colouring the paper in a way that woulds resemble burned parchment. (Real parchment seems to have been too costly in his times to be able to make such experiments with).
BTW: Some might find this interesting:
Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum?
Why is the UK still printing its laws on vellum?
After a U-turn, the UK government is to continue printing and storing its laws on vellum. Shouldn't it go digital?
www.bbc.com
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Haerangil
Well-Known Member
1st depends on how many people write letters, if it is not every household but only three people in each village you only need one person to be sble to read - the guy at the mail sorting.illiterate postmen were by the way nothing uncommon until modern times.
2nd is wrong again. I was well able to write as a young child without being literate, what i wrote just did not make any sense at all, yet i had seen letters and was able to identify many of them.
3rd is not the same since your deductions exclude possibilities while the other logic doesn't.
It took us so long to find a way to justify the sheer existence if paper, it's making being connected to such a terrible amount of environmental problems...
We came up with bark or reedpaper just to be able to lean back and exhale, so we don't have to imagine factories of massive paper production in the shire poisoning it's beautyful landscapes with tons of dangerous chemicals.
Thinking about it i come to the conclusion that Sauron and Saruman most likely are the no1 and 2 in industrial paperdroduction, Sauron clearly needs massive amounts of paper for his massive beaurocracies paperworks, all orcs are literate as we know, they all have personal numbers. No doubt the existence of paper in the shire is due to the Sack-ville bagginses long-time shady dealings with the south and the entire postal-service was a Sarumanic intrigue to corrupt hobbit society...
2nd is wrong again. I was well able to write as a young child without being literate, what i wrote just did not make any sense at all, yet i had seen letters and was able to identify many of them.
3rd is not the same since your deductions exclude possibilities while the other logic doesn't.
It took us so long to find a way to justify the sheer existence if paper, it's making being connected to such a terrible amount of environmental problems...
We came up with bark or reedpaper just to be able to lean back and exhale, so we don't have to imagine factories of massive paper production in the shire poisoning it's beautyful landscapes with tons of dangerous chemicals.
Thinking about it i come to the conclusion that Sauron and Saruman most likely are the no1 and 2 in industrial paperdroduction, Sauron clearly needs massive amounts of paper for his massive beaurocracies paperworks, all orcs are literate as we know, they all have personal numbers. No doubt the existence of paper in the shire is due to the Sack-ville bagginses long-time shady dealings with the south and the entire postal-service was a Sarumanic intrigue to corrupt hobbit society...
Odola
Well-Known Member
O.k.
But that means a least 1 person and his/her replacement at each post office - who all are not gentry themselves- still makes a fair amount of non-gentry literate people in the hole of the Shire. Same with apothecaries and dcotors (and there should be ones - given the hobbit society.)
Still more that most of the Rohirrim would reach in their life. Clearly an already pre-literary state.
? Given that logic the printing press could not be excluded in Gondor - and I am convinced it is - the same way as soda drinks and ice cream.
I was to lazy to do it myself so I've asked Ruth.
And she did it when she had time. Fine with me.I aleady said this does not need to influence SilmFilm per se. It is just remarkable how Tolkien - and the Peter Jackoson movies after him - used paper and the lack of it to achieve certain artistic deliberate chronological effects in the story - and if we decide to break with this tradition we should be at least aware of the fact that we are doing so and have some ideas about the possible consequences it might have for the story-telling (and its reception - like "enraged fans".)
A completely valid view - given what the text present us with. One I might not share but one I have to aknowledge gas a completely valid way to read the texts.
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Haerangil
Well-Known Member
One post-sorting station in micheldelving should be sufficient, then you only need short symbols, abbreviations and guys with good memory, no full literacy needed. Again, i strongly believe that most rohan children would make out certain runes they know, doesn't mean they're literate. What's the problem with illiterate doctors and apothecaries? Quite common in pre-industrial societies.How can you say Gondor had no ice cream or soda ? Did Hobbits have it?
Odola
Well-Known Member
Maybe no "full-literacy" but some "semi-literacy" is required. And you do not have "semi-literacy" in an illiterate society - it is not needed.
Doubt it, this would involve keeping to much of them indoors - most were probably much involved outside helping to tend to the horses.
Doctors? - Healers, witch-doctors and herbalists - no doubt hobbits would have those too. But to be a proper doctor even in the Middle Ages one needed Latin and full literacy.
Exactly the fact that I cannot - proves the point that I was making
.
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Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
There might be the question of whether or not characters find it necessary to read. I think of the Inheritance Cycle where it's mentioned that Eragon's uncle Garrow knows how to read but as a farmer, considered it useless and didn't teach his son Roran or his nephew Eragon, forcing Eragon's mentor Brom to teach him.
As far as the Shire is concerned, I'm certain that there is an education system of some sort (could be homeschooled at the least) since the lower-class Sam presumably knows how to read and write since he writes in the Red Book; only he could have recounted what happened between Frodo's capture and the Tower of Cirith Ungol.
As far as the Shire is concerned, I'm certain that there is an education system of some sort (could be homeschooled at the least) since the lower-class Sam presumably knows how to read and write since he writes in the Red Book; only he could have recounted what happened between Frodo's capture and the Tower of Cirith Ungol.
Odola
Well-Known Member
We are explicitly told that Bilbo taught the neigbourhood's children - disregrading the rank of their parents - "their letters" - Sam included.
How far something similar happened at other places of the Shire is unsure.
Actually the precursors of it - sherbets and milk ices - they might have had in the cooler months - they were into food after all. Soda I doubt, but some natural sparkling water with some fruit syrup - why not?
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Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Maybe no "full-literacy" but some "semi-literacy" is required. And you do not have "semi-literacy" in an illiterate society - it is not needed.
Doubt it, this would involve keeping to much of them indoors - most were probably much involved outside helping to tend to the horses.
Doctors? - Healers, witch-doctors and herbalists - no doubt hobbits would have those too. But to be a proper doctor even in the Middle Ages one needed Latin and full literacy.
Exactly the fact that I cannot - proves the point that I was making
1. Surely you have. Everywhere!
2.thats why runes have names, you learn them without proper schools or living in-doors much of the time and mostly without being proper literate.
3.oh you mean the academic grade! Well since they do not have universities in the shire and seemingly no schools.. though... who knows maybe they have, though i doubt it! Maybe in Tuckborough or Micheldeving the great university hole...
Where the wealthy gentry send tjeir kids so they do not stroll around like certain Tooks and Brandybucks.
4. Of course NOT
, accepting it on the contrary admits that Gondor and other cultures might as well have paper ☺
Odola
Well-Known Member
You can have semi-literacy in a partially or post-literate society, not in a primary illiterate one.
Many people historically learned reading without "proper schools" - as those were quite limited. Plenty of people had hired teachers (or slaves) to teach them.
But what would a Rohirric horse herder need the knowledge of runes for? A horse healer assigned to divine a spell to heal a sick horse maybe, but a "normal" one?
As long as there was a university in Arnor for sure. But after that system broke down it would go back to the master-apprentice road - with most of the profession staying within the ancient respected "medical" family lines with some hard won reputation to their names - an order/council/board which would gather a set intervals to make some test-evaluation before assigning the grade - but still literacy would be required for sure - most probably in Numenorean Quenya or some derivate of it.
4. Of course NOT
And the printing press, and ice cream parlours... and... and...
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