The Palantiri

MithLuin

MithLuin

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As came up in the Season 2 Episode 8 Session, it is clear that having palantiri in Valinor has very significant implications for who knows what when, and also for long distance communication. We need to know how this works, and what is available to whom, and foresee any idiot plots in future episodes that would be set up if there are palantiri sitting there.

I am putting this thread in this forum as it impacts a lot more than just one episode.

So...if Fëanor makes the palantiri before the silmarils, who has them? Where do they go? We need to plan that out.

I will put Corey Olsen's ideas from the session in the next post, but this is the big picture question.
 
Have most of the palantiri at Formenos (when Fëanor is exiled, he takes them with him). Then, when Melkor sacks Formenos, he takes or destroys them all.
Have *some* of the palantiri given as gifts to the Teleri. Fëanor asks for them back when he negotiates for the ships. We know how that ends.
These palantiri make it to Tol Eressea, where eventually some are given to the Numenoreans and 7 make it back to Middle Earth at the end of the Second Age.

In this version, the Noldor do not have access to palantiri during the First Age, which seems...important.
Morgoth and Sauron might have access to some stolen palantiri, that would be destroyed by the time we reach the War of Wrath.

Alternative ideas are worth considering, but this thread is mainly to work out the implications. Recall that they can be used both for 2-way communication and for seeing things far off. Refer to Unfinished Tales for a technical operating manual on the palantiri :p
 
Think about how different the War might have been if the Noldor had the ability to keep in constant and real-time contact with each other. It is very important that we get them out of the Noldor's hands before they leave Valinor.

I think having them either destroyed by Melkor/Morgoth and/or on Tol Eressea is probably the best idea. It can be explained that as a favor to his father, Feanor gifted palantiri to the Teleri.
 
To trace the palantiri backwards....Arnor and Gondor have them because they were brought from the destruction of Numenor by Elendil, Isildur and Anarion...'seven stars and seven stones and one white tree,' as Gandalf tells Pippin.

Numenor had palantíri as a gift from the elves of Tol Eressëa visiting them over the years. The family of Elendil (the Lords of Adunië, the Faithful) thus would have had some...but we don't know how many were gifted or if any were lost in the destruction of Numenor. There is more on this in Unfinished Tales, I believe.

What we *don't* know is the full story of how the elves of Tol Eressëa got them, and it is strongly implied that they were made by Fëanor in Valinor, so there is a gap throughout the entire First Age for us to fill in.

As has been mentioned above...letting the Noldor in Middle Earth have them has a huge impact on the story. If Maedhros and Fingon could have planned out the Fifth Battle and relied upon a palantiri-message signal to start things...it probably wouldn't have been named 'Unnumbered Tears'. Granted, you could still have a betrayal, with Maedhros' camp missing the signal and being unable to get organized in time, so it doesn't immediately destroy the story. But it makes the fact that the Noldor couldn't get their eastern and western armies to fight together a bigger fiasco than it was in the original story. And that's just one example of the impact on the story...there's more.

So, while it would be possible to tell a story where Fëanor and his followers brought the palantíri to Middle Earth in the stolen ships of the Teleri, used them all throughout the First Age, and then took them back with them on ships to Tol Eressëa when the Ban was pardoned....ummmm...we want to think *very* very carefully before doing things that way!
 
Given some time to consider it further, I think that Morgoth can't have a palantir during the First Age either. If he did, the hidden locations of Nargothrond and Gondolin wouldn't remain secrets for very long. I know he eventually finds them, and he knows the general area where they are anyway. But....the elves would have to have anti-palantir-stealth-secrecy around their cities or something to counter it, and that just gets silly.
 
Here is one way that we can do this. It is just a suggestion and I am not wedded to it in any way:

a) Feanor created many palantiri and they were, in many ways, his last great creation before the Silmarils and are definitely the last creation that he shares willingly
b) At the behest of his father, Feanor gifted some to Ingwe on Taniquetil and Olwe in Tol Eressea so the three kindreds could stay more or less in touch
c) Ingwe, being King of the Elves, has a Master Stone as does Finwe and Olwe
d) When Morgoth storms Formenos, it is Finwe's message through the palantiri that warns the others that Morgoth is responsible
e) Morgoth wants the palantiri but Finwe denies him it and, in fact, destroys it but we do not know that initially
f) When Feanor rebels, because he doesn't know what happened to his father's master stone, knows that it would be foolish to use the palantiri if Morgoth has the master stone which would allow Morgoth to monitor any and all messages, so he deliberately has the Noldor leave the palantiri
g) It is after the Kinslaying when it is discovered by Finarfin that Finwe destroyed his Master Stone
h) Morgoth has no palantiri
i) The Valinorian forces use the palantiri to coordinate their attacks and defense using the palantiri during the War of Wrath, making them a much more effective unit
j) After the War of Wrath, the Teleri (specifically the line of Elwe) present seven palantiri to Elros
k) the palantiri remain under the care of the Faithful for reasons explained in season 10 (no, not kicking the can at all there)

Just a thought.
 
Those are some good thoughts. The Noldor have to destroy or leave their palantiri. I would like to go with an explanation that fits into other plotlines and stories, so that the palantir become an illustration of some larger themes.

At least one palantir must remain on Tol Eressëa - the palantir in the Tower Hills looks to that one only.

The elves of Tol Eressëa in the 2nd Age are mostly Exiled Noldor, and those are the ones who have reason to stay in touch with Numenor. But of course, sailing about in the ocean is a Teleri thing, so quite likely we could explain either Teleri or Noldor elves visiting Numenor (when we get to that).



I also really want Fëanor to give Finwë a palantir with the idea that he can use it to look for his friend Elwë who was lost in Middle Earth. It would show that Fëanor does love his father and not just take him for granted, and would also remind the audience of the close connection between Elwë and Finwë...which Fëanor does not personally share at all.
 
What if nobody really gets how useful the Palantiri are, at least initially.

Perhaps they are created as a request - I mean what if the Teleri talk about how they would like to know what's going on in Middle-earth and Fëanor gets the idea to create these seeing stones. He gives them to the Teleri but isn't really interested in using them himself and the Noldor don't have much use for them - they don't have to spy on anyone in Aman and aren't interested in Middle-earth at that time. (That comes later)
 
It has occured to me that Feanor might make them to let Dad look in on his long-lost pal Elwe. It doesn't work because of the Girdle of Melian, so they might think they know for sure now that he's dead. Might be the reason they give them all away...


Or.... What if Feanor offers them to the Teleri in exchange for their ships. When they refuse, Feanor leaves them behind as some sort of justification.
 
Another thought occurred to me. What if Melkor/Morgoth DID get a palantir when he sacked Formenos? When they examine the wreckage of Formenos, they would see that the palantir was gone and would know that it would be madness to use their own palantiri with Morgoth in possession of one, so they deliberately leave their palantiri in Valinor. The palantir that Morgoth stole would either be destroyed by Ungoliant, or destroyed in the War of Wrath thus freeing the other palantiri from his evil. This would explain why the Noldor didn't think to bring something to Beleriand that strategically would be of immense value .

And another thought... Why didn't Cirdan, Gil-Galad, Celebrimbor, Elrond and Galadriel get palantiri of their own? Peter Jackson aside, my assumption had always been that when Elves shared their thoughts with each other, they needed to be in proximity to each other. Why wouldn't the most powerful of the remaining Eldar want to be able to communicate with each other? (answering thought: if the Teleri had the palantiri to give away, they may not have been exactly willing to do so to the Noldor who were remaining on Middle Earth)
 
While I do see danger of Melkor having a palantir at his disposal, we do know that he has some sort of powerful scrying ability, since he is able to force Hurin to watch the suffering of his children. Could he be using a palantir to do that? Could have been on Feanor's person when he died, leaving it damaged in some what that Melkor can't use it to spy on the Noldor? I'm thinking here of the strength of will required to see anything in Denethor's palantir aside from withered, burning hands... eugh.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
While I do see danger of Melkor having a palantir at his disposal, we do know that he has some sort of powerful scrying ability, since he is able to force Hurin to watch the suffering of his children. Could he be using a palantir to do that? Could have been on Feanor's person when he died, leaving it damaged in some what that Melkor can't use it to spy on the Noldor? I'm thinking here of the strength of will required to see anything in Denethor's palantir aside from withered, burning hands... eugh.
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When Corey mentioned the possibility of Melkor having a palantir, the first thing I thought of was Hurin.

Why couldn't he use it fully? Is there anything that the Noldor do that he needs to be surprised by? Beren and Luthien surprise him, but it's understandable that they wouldn't exactly be on his radar, nor the Vanyar returning for the War of Wrath...

But in general, I sort of like the idea of him having a palantir (though I'd vote he gets it from Finwe's corpse, not Feanor's). Raises the stakes for the audience that he has one, of which the Noldor are in ignorance of, so he's always one step ahead of him. Drives home the hopelessness of the "long defeat", doesn't it?
 
While I agree that Morgoth having scrying powers isn't necessarily a bad thing (not the way letting the Noldor having a bunch of palantíri would be), it does have...issues.

Nargothrond and Gondolin are founded in FA 52-53.

The Fall of Nargothrond occurs in FA 495 and the Fall of Gondolin happens in FA 510.

It seems a little...unbelievable....that Morgoth wouldn't be able to find those hidden fortresses for over 400 years if he had access to a seeing stone. The secrecy of Gondolin is a major plot point in this story. And it comes up specifically in the captivity of Húrin, so how would we show Morgoth forcing Húrin to watch the fates of his family in a palantir, while still having Morgoth questioning him on the location of the rebel's secret base, I mean Gondolin?

Unless Nargothrond and Gondolin have their own version of the Girdle of Melian, but....Melian is a Maia, and the Girdle is the one thing that seems to be explicitly her thing (not achievable by elvish magic).
 
Yes I think we have to find ways to restrict the effect of the palantiri by not spreading them. This should be because Fëanor doesn't want them spread and/or doesn't realise their full potential - perhaps because he's already thinking about the silmarils.
 
MithLuin said:
While I agree that Morgoth having scrying powers isn't necessarily a bad thing (not the way letting the Noldor having a bunch of palantíri would be), it does have...issues.

Nargothrond and Gondolin are founded in FA 52-53.

The Fall of Nargothrond occurs in FA 495 and the Fall of Gondolin happens in FA 510.

It seems a little...unbelievable....that Morgoth wouldn't be able to find those hidden fortresses for over 400 years if he had access to a seeing stone. The secrecy of Gondolin is a major plot point in this story. And it comes up specifically in the captivity of Húrin, so how would we show Morgoth forcing Húrin to watch the fates of his family in a palantir, while still having Morgoth questioning him on the location of the rebel's secret base, I mean Gondolin?

Unless Nargothrond and Gondolin have their own version of the Girdle of Melian, but....Melian is a Maia, and the Girdle is the one thing that seems to be explicitly her thing (not achievable by elvish magic).
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Perhaps Fingon entrusted a palantir to Dor-Lomin?
 
Ray Burns said:
Peter Jackson aside, my assumption had always been that when Elves shared their thoughts with each other, they needed to be in proximity to each other. Why wouldn't the most powerful of the remaining Eldar want to be able to communicate with each other?
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Interesting thought! I think the answer is likely in Tolkien's essay on elvish mental communication, Ósanwe-kenta. It has been a very long time since I looked at that. It's not in HoME, but in Vinyar Tengwar. IIRC, long distance mental communication was possible, but unlikely. I'll have to see if I can find some excerpts to aid in this conversation.


....And trust the Russians to have the full text of copyrighted material on a website: http://podelise.ru/docs/19345/index-4935-1.html
A legal copy may be obtained for $12 here [it's in Volume 4]: http://www.elvish.org/VT/shop.html


And indeed the answer is there:
"distance in itself offers no impediment whatever to ósanwe"

So, if two minds are naturally able to communicate with one another (in the case of Galadriel and Elrond, they are linked by kinship), distance should be no impediment to that communication.


Also from Osanwe-kenta:
Manwe himself said to those who would listen: "Of the Children of Eru Melkor knew less than his peers, giving less heed to what he might have learned, as we did, in the Vision of their Coming. Yet, as we now fear since we know you in your true being, to everything that might aid his designs for mastery his mind was keen to attend, and his purpose leaped forward swifter than ours, being bound by no axan. From the first he was greatly interested in "language", that talent that the Eruhíni would have by nature; but we did not at once perceive the malice in this interest, for many of us shared it, and Aule above all. But in time we discovered that he had made a language for those who served him; and he has learned our tongue with ease. He has great skill in this matter. Beyond doubt he will master all tongues, even the fair speech of the Eldar. Therefore, if ever you should speak with him beware!"​

"Alas!" says Pengolodh, "in Valinor Melkor used the Quenya with such mastery that all the Eldar were amazed, for his use could not be bettered, scarce equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters".​

I think that this is pertinent to our current plans for Melkor in Valinor.
Eruhíni = Children of Eru = Elves and Men
axan, pl. axani 'law, rule, commandment; as primarily proceeding from Eru'. Adopted from Valarin akasān 'He says', referring to Eru (WJ:399).
 
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Let's assume Melkor never owns a palantir long enough to use it. This means that he either a) never came close to one or b) Ungoliant swallowed it/them (for example after the theft of the silmarils; he could feed her with them). This probably means that the palantiri were kept in at the most three places: Formenos, Alqualondë and Tol Eressëa. I say this because we know Fëanor gave a number of the stones to the Teleri and besides that he might have kept an unknown number for himself. I don't want the Noldor to bring any palantiri to ME so I suggest that there weren't any in Alqualondë.
The palantiri could be made early on, but we should consider if they perhaps were created when Fëanor was working on the Silmarils. He might be experimenting on all kinds of special stones, to find out about the limitations of 'magical stones'.
 
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And indeed the answer is there:
"distance in itself offers no impediment whatever to ósanwe"
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Now isn't that interesting? Perhaps the Noldor didn't think they needed the palantiri because of ósanwe, but as the age progresses and the Elves grow weary and fractious, they find that they can't rely on ósanwe as much if at all.

I personally like the idea that the last time that we see Melkor use his power as a Valar was for something as mean-spirited and personal as cursing the line of Hurin.
 
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