Weapon & Armor systems; Tactical Styles in Middle Earth

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Bucklers and targes sometimes had odd forms... these could explain the lozengal elements in elvish heraldry!
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
On note about bucklers: not always, but often, they are held by a handle like this
2666
We’ve established that Maedhros has a prosthetic that allows him to hold a shield; however, I don’t think a buckler like this would be an ideal weapon for him. He would not have the shock absorption of a hand behind the shield, and he would lose a lot of control without a wrist to rotate.

I suggest using targes or both Maedhros and Fingolfin having the kind of buckler that straps to the arm.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
On note about bucklers: not always, but often, they are held by a handle like this
View attachment 2666
We’ve established that Maedhros has a prosthetic that allows him to hold a shield; however, I don’t think a buckler like this would be an ideal weapon for him. He would not have the shock absorption of a hand behind the shield, and he would lose a lot of control without a wrist to rotate.

I suggest using targes or both Maedhros and Fingolfin having the kind of buckler that straps to the arm.
Would a wrist-mounted shield be larger?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
What would I need to do to choreograph a fight like this?
Ok, firstly, I'm not a fight choreographer, so take what I say with the appropriate amount of salt. There are online resources out there I would encourage you to check out.

I would suggest breaking up the fight into three acts. The first act is composed of Maedhros' first point and Fingolfin's first two. Maedhros' second point marks the end of the second act, with the tiebreaker taking place in the third.

The pace of the first act is quick, while the second slows down as the fighters act defensively. The third act should have a rising pace that culminates in the final point.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Ok, firstly, I'm not a fight choreographer, so take what I say with the appropriate amount of salt. There are online resources out there I would encourage you to check out.

I would suggest breaking up the fight into three acts. The first act is composed of Maedhros' first point and Fingolfin's first two. Maedhros' second point marks the end of the second act, with the tiebreaker taking place in the third.

The pace of the first act is quick, while the second slows down as the fighters act defensively. The third act should have a rising pace that culminates in the final point.
What would I be handing in as output?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
What would I be handing in as output?
That's entirely up to you and what you are able to make. I could see the choreography being conveyed in a series of sketches. Or, if you can find props and someone to fight with, maybe you could produce a video or a series of photos showing the fight.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
That's entirely up to you and what you are able to make. I could see the choreography being conveyed in a series of sketches. Or, if you can find props and someone to fight with, maybe you could produce a video or a series of photos showing the fight.
I’m not sure if I can do either. I‘m rather poor at drawing and don’t have access to props.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I’m not sure if I can do either. I‘m rather poor at drawing and don’t have access to props.
They don't have to be realistic swords. Even sticks would work. Alternatively, maybe you could find some kind of software that would allow you to pose a 3D figures to depict the choreography.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
That's entirely up to you and what you are able to make. I could see the choreography being conveyed in a series of sketches. Or, if you can find props and someone to fight with, maybe you could produce a video or a series of photos showing the fight.

There is *probably* a written format that stunt coordinators use, but a quick google search has not turned anything up for me.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I have a collection of weapons and costumes....if you can convey what you want this to look like in some way, it's possible others can make the images. And if you look at the guys in Haerangil's video, it's not like you'd need fancy equipment to convey the movements.

Generally speaking choreography is step-by-step and timed. Getting the sequence of the movements down is the important part. So just a written description of what is happening might be an okay starting point.....but that works better if you have vocabulary to describe the actions. Are you familiar with any martial arts?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I have a collection of weapons and costumes....if you can convey what you want this to look like in some way, it's possible others can make the images. And if you look at the guys in Haerangil's video, it's not like you'd need fancy equipment to convey the movements.

Generally speaking choreography is step-by-step and timed. Getting the sequence of the movements down is the important part. So just a written description of what is happening might be an okay starting point.....but that works better if you have vocabulary to describe the actions. Are you familiar with any martial arts?
Does fencing count? I also took taekwondo when I was younger.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Fencing definitely counts - fencing has a vocabulary (parry, thrust, etc) that describes motions with swords. Obviously, the style of fighting here is different, but again, what you're trying to do is to visualize the steps of the fight yourself, and then convey that in words or pictures. You can maybe get posable figures (artists use them to get anatomy right, but you can probably use any action figure that bends enough). Or you could find a video that shows the right type of fight, and then use timestamps to pull out individual moves. These are just suggestions, though - whatever works for you to convey your ideas is fine.

In the top series of images, we see a pitcher throw a baseball. The three poses convey the motion without needing steps in between to convey the idea of what is happening.



I guess these are meant to be 'super hero poses' or something but the idea here is that you could pose a figurine at any step in the process and show how they are fighting - especially if you had two figurines.



This series of sketches shows a bunch of different poses with a spear. Nothing about it is fancy or identifies the character (though some are taller, some heavier, etc). The important detail is the way the body is moving and how they are holding the spear. If you could find a similar series for sword and targe, you might be able to use those to tell your story.


To get the right vocabulary to describe something in words rather than visuals, looking at the manuals for this kind of fighting might be helpful.
http://egloos.zum.com/zairai/v/2079357
(Excerpt from 'Medieval Swordsmanship' by John Clements)
There are better reference materials out there, but whatever you can get your hands on with pictures in it might be helpful.
 
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