Session 6-02: The Villain Storylines

[kanji_d]

Daeron isn't creepy, or at least he shouldn't be. Recall that originally he was Luthien's brother, and shows little to no actual romantic feelings for her in the earliest versions. If anything he's concerned. That's going to be hard to communicate for us, since we've made Daeron and Luthien romantically closer than in those early versions, but I think in the end he is at worst jealous and impulsive. He is creepy in that moment maybe but should not be portrayed that way overall. No matter how we do it, I think Daeron ought to repent more clearly. Perhaps he could aid Luthien in her escape before he leaves? Just a thought.

 

[Rob Harding]

Daeron isn't creepy, or at least he shouldn't be. Recall that originally he was Luthien's brother, and shows little to no actual romantic feelings for her in the earliest versions. If anything he's concerned. That's going to be hard to communicate for us, since we've made Daeron and Luthien romantically closer than in those early versions, but I think in the end he is at worst jealous and impulsive. He is creepy in that moment maybe but should not be portrayed that way overall. No matter how we do it, I think Daeron ought to repent more clearly. Perhaps he could aid Luthien in her escape before he leaves? Just a thought.

I think him choosing to step up and aid her in that specific way is good. Then she can accept his aid and we don’t really need to address how she feels about him after that point as their relationship is superseded. Ties a bow on it quite nicely. You can always have a denouement of them being friendly or a moment in a later series

 

[Odola]

He is in love with her snd then when she rejects him he very intentionally tells Thingol of her relationship with Beren which up till that point he has kept secret. It’s very intentionally a reaction to her sidelining of him and speaks to an entitlement that his desire should’ve been reciprocated. Even if implicit, unless we change the order of things that’s certainly how the audience will view it and allowing that to go unaddressed won’t paint him favourably. It’ll be hard to keep him as a liked character if we see him betray our protagonist with pretty major results and there be no response for him to make.

I do think in an isolated telling of Beren and Luthien you can play him as an antagonist without the necessity for redemption but in this series where he is already established and we likely want to follow up with him later we need to be clear on how this event is dealt

Daeron isn't creepy, or at least he shouldn't be. Recall that originally he was Luthien's brother, and shows little to no actual romantic feelings for her in the earliest versions. If anything he's concerned. That's going to be hard to communicate for us, since we've made Daeron and Luthien romantically closer than in those early versions, but I think in the end he is at worst jealous and impulsive. He is creepy in that moment maybe but should not be portrayed that way overall. No matter how we do it, I think Daeron ought to repent more clearly. Perhaps he could aid Luthien in her escape before he leaves? Just a thought.

Would that not make him a traitor to the king? Delaying to inform the king about a harmless intruder is one thing (especially for an elf who has time), going against his explicit order another altogether.

 

[kanji_d]

Would that not make him a traitor to the king? Delaying to inform the king about a harmless intruder is one things, going against his explicit order another altogether.

Maybe that's why he leaves Doriath for the East. The book is pretty vague on why he goes, if he deems himself outlaw and flees to avoid the King's judgement then that's a very good reason for him to leave.

 

[Haerangil]

Well, but do we want to make Daeron's tale a moraLity play, showing everybody "see! You don't behave like that!" .i would find that very boring and dull to be frank.Far less interesting than portraining his divided loyalties and possible struggle between self-interest, hurt feelings and friendship.

 

[Haerangil]

Daeron betrays Luthien twice.It does have to do with jealousy, but also sincere fear, he also does it because he DOES care for her deeply.

And what happens to him? He goes into the wilderness looking for her and is seemingly lost forever... that is very tragic. Daeron is a very sad character... he'll most likely be alone and searching forever after.One of the saddest endings for Characters in Tolkien i could imagine.

 

[Odola]

Daeron betrays Luthien twice.It does have to do with jealousy, but also sincere fear, he also does it because he DOES care for her deeply.

And what happens to him? He goes into the wilderness looking for her and is seemingly lost forever... that is very tragic. Daeron is a very sad character... he'll most likely be alone and searching forever after.One of the saddest endings for Characters in Tolkien i could imagine.

But technicality undoable. There is not enough wilderness there to be lost in for an immortal being wandering around without never meeting anyone. A fitting end for a bard to use in a song if he doesn't know but technically not viable in a pretend-real setting.

 

[Rob Harding]

Well, but do we want to make Daeron's tale a moraLity play, showing everybody "see! You don't behave like that!" .i would find that very boring and dull to be frank.Far less interesting than portraining his divided loyalties and possible struggle between self-interest, hurt feelings and friendship.

Agreed. We need to clearly show he does so in sadness and a misplaced sense of overprotectiveness (you can play him as an anti-Beren). If we go that route it clearly has be less about genuine spite toward Luthien and more to harm Beren. Play him more as a Narnian Edmund figure, who does wrong by betraying but doesn’t fully think through the course of his actions. I think motive is the big crux. If he’s doing it to knowingly bring maximum harm to Luthien then you’re left with a story where a man hurts a woman because she spurned him and then nobody bats an eyelid. Which is unpleasant and unrealistic. But if his motive is to harm Beren and save Luthien from Beren, and he doesn’t think properly about how she’ll get caught in the resulting mess, then it’s definitely more tragic. And you still retain the chance for redemption and sympathy. He can almost knowingly except it’ll ruin his relationship with her but thinks it’s worth giving up to protect her. The tragedy being that it was the wrong move and it almost redirects her to hold tighter to Beren. She goes into the pits if he’ll for him and Daeron is left alone. His love causes evil (pain) but that pain strengthens live. He loves her but not enough to give her the agency to make her own choices. And again, we have a beautiful poet character being corrupted by desire and we feel the tragedy of that. I think you can do Daeron as a straight up antagonist but I equally think you can show his pursuit of her as a sort of adoration (just need to be careful in scripting that it can’t be read by an audience or directed as creepy if we don't want it to be) and don’t need to make it lust in the same way as say, Morgoth’s lust to corrupt beauty. Anyway…

Boldog?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

One could extend the dichotomy with all of the antagonists; for example, Celegorm and Curufin attempt to force Luthien to marry the former as part of the latter's plans to unite all the kingdoms (and display a very poor grasp of Elven psychology).

 

[Octoburn]

To return to the thread topic, if we go along the line of Morgoth wanting something so fair just to despoil it, could the Boldog attack be worked into the season?

@Rhiannon's thoughts on the matter, since this thread seems more apt to discuss it:

I'm very much in favor of Boldog's attack. It gives Doriath something to do. In my personal outline (that I made before I ever found SilmFilm) I may have over complicated things a bit, trying to tie them together too much.

After Thingol finds Luthien is gone, he sends Beleg to track her down and bring her back. When Thingol gets the message from C&C about Luthien, he prepares a war party to try to free her. On their march, they are met by Beleg who says she escaped Nargothrond, but he could not catch her. So they turn back and are met on the March back by Boldog's host and the battle ensues.

 

[Rob Harding]

I'm very much in favor of Boldog's attack. It gives Doriath something to do. In my personal outline (that I made before I ever found SilmFilm) I may have over complicated things a bit, trying to tie them together too much.

After Thingol finds Luthien is gone, he sends Beleg to track her down and bring her back. When Thingol gets the message from C&C about Luthien, he prepares a war party to try to free her. On their march, they are met by Beleg who says she escaped Nargothrond, but he could not catch her. So they turn back and are met on the March back by Boldog's host and the battle ensues.

I also like that this repeats the idea of men in her life trying to save her and she does not need that at all. She is not a Disney Princess. But she can still be stunning and enchanted and beautiful without bring delicate.

What was the conclusion from way back about differentiating orc ‘heroes’? How do we make sure Gorgol stands out? Does he just carry a big butcher’s knife style sword? I know these chats were had but can’t think where (searching ‘orcs’ brings up A LOT).

 

[MithLuin]

Correct, Lúthien is not a Disney princess. She is a Mary Sue.

Just make him Dior's "god-father" and teacher after his parents are gone - imho redemption enough. Maybe he invents the runes to preserve Beren's story for human posterity?

As a note, Daeron has already invented his runes in Season 3 of Silm Film. He uses them to record one of Lúthien's songs. She appreciates it, but most of the other elves are indifferent. The dwarves, however, immediately latch on to the usefulness and are quite interested in this practice that the elves consider more of a novelty.

 

[Haerangil]

But technicality undoable. There is not enough wilderness there to be lost in for an immortal being wandering around without never meeting anyone. A fitting end for a bard to use in a song if he doesn't know but technically not viable in a pretend-real setting.

Oh i totally do see him going "wayward" as a descend into insanity.

 

[Haerangil]

I'm very much in favor of Boldog's attack. It gives Doriath something to do. In my personal outline (that I made before I ever found SilmFilm) I may have over complicated things a bit, trying to tie them together too much.

After Thingol finds Luthien is gone, he sends Beleg to track her down and bring her back. When Thingol gets the message from C&C about Luthien, he prepares a war party to try to free her. On their march, they are met by Beleg who says she escaped Nargothrond, but he could not catch her. So they turn back and are met on the March back by Boldog's host and the battle ensues.

I'd love Boldogs raid on Doriath and his death by thingol to happen.It would be a fitting end for him and we'd see Thingol in actual serious combat.

 

[Haerangil]

I also like that this repeats the idea of men in her life trying to save her and she does not need that at all. She is not a Disney Princess. But she can still be stunning and enchanted and beautiful without bring delicate.

What was the conclusion from way back about differentiating orc ‘heroes’? How do we make sure Gorgol stands out? Does he just carry a big butcher’s knife style sword? I know these chats were had but can’t think where (searching ‘orcs’ brings up A LOT).

Gorgol so far had one noticable scene where he was introduced and in that he gave a taunting comment to Sauron...
I like him, he's a fun cynical orc, but so far he has only been there to be soon killed by Beren.

 

[Odola]

Oh i totally do see him going "wayward" as a descend into insanity.

Can elves go insane? Seems a human aliment to me. Not something elves would be prone too. Sorrow makes elves fade and lose the will to live, but can it muddle their sharp minds? Could be some later bard projectic a human condition onto the character in a song but is it even actually possible technicality? I could imagine him just laying down under a tree and die out of dispair but to go insane? Seems un-elvish to me. Of course if one of the bad guys met him accidentially in the forest and placed him under a spell or had he drunk something from an enchanted stream such effect would be possible. But simply going insane?

 

[kanji_d]

Can elves go insane? Seems a human aliment to me. Not something elves would be prone too. Sorrow makes elves fade and lose the will to live, but can it muddle their sharp minds? Could be some later bard projectic a human condition onto the character in a song but is it even actually possible technicality? I could imagine him just laying down under a tree and die out of dispair but to go insane? Seems un-elvish to me. Of course if one of the bad guys met him accidentially in the forest and placed him under a spell or had he drunk something from an enchanted stream such effect would be possible. But simply going insane?

I'd agree generally, but the problem is that Eol exists (well, existed). What is his condition other than insanity? He does decidedly un-elvish things. It's not clear why, as the book doesn't say he's been corrupted. So is that just an Eol thing? Does it extend to the rest of Elven society? On a less extreme sample, Feanor. For Feanor it's more misguided zealotry than true insanity, but it still toes the line. Don't get me wrong, if you can describe Eol in a way that isn't "insane" I'm all ears, but that's the best descriptor I can come up with on the spot.

 

[Odola]

I'd agree generally, but the problem is that Eol exists (well, existed). What is his condition other than insanity? He does decidedly un-elvish things. It's not clear why, as the book doesn't say he's been corrupted. So is that just an Eol thing? Does it extend to the rest of Elven society? On a less extreme sample, Feanor. For Feanor it's more misguided zealotry than true insanity, but it still toes the line. Don't get me wrong, if you can describe Eol in a way that isn't "insane" I'm all ears, but that's the best descriptor I can come up with on the spot.

See my recent Eol immorality thread. I see Eol as completely wild-elvish. Overshadoved, twisted, questionable but not irrational.

 

[Rob Harding]

Correct, Lúthien is not a Disney princess. She is a Mary Sue.

Yuck lol I kid. I just hate the term Mary Sue. It normally is used for overpowered characters who never experience an obstacles. Which is the death of drama. Even if you can overcome an physical hurdle you need a moral or emotional one. It’s why I think so few writers seem to be able to tell good superman stories.

Gorgol so far had one noticable scene where he was introduced and in that he gave a taunting comment to Sauron...
I like him, he's a fun cynical orc, but so far he has only been there to be soon killed by Beren.

Sorry was throwing him out as an example. Yes. I remember we used him in that way, I totally blanked on the details. Just thinking what we can do with his death that has a nice pay off.

 

[Haerangil]

Can elves go insane? Seems a human aliment to me. Not something elves would be prone too. Sorrow makes elves fade and lose the will to live, but can it muddle their sharp minds? Could be some later bard projectic a human condition onto the character in a song but is it even actually possible technicality? I could imagine him just laying down under a tree and die out of dispair but to go insane? Seems un-elvish to me. Of course if one of the bad guys met him accidentially in the forest and placed him under a spell or had he drunk something from an enchanted stream such effect would be possible. But simply going insane?

Define insanity. He certainly suffers from a deep pain in his soul, he is not fully sane anymore and goes "wayward". That could be either extreme depression so he actively looks for isolation, or he really is so disturbed he loses his senses of orientation or maybe even both.His spirit/mind/heart certainly is not healthy any more, that is why this happens to him.