Amazon series: reactions to news and rumours. (Spoiler alert!)

If we want to play up the ‘staying true to Tokien’s sources’ angle, we could say that Tolkien is clearly influenced by Norse mythology and the cultures that spawned them. Well, there’s strong archeological evidence for Nordic warrior women. So that’s at least true to his inspirations just with a more modern understanding of the context

What has the fact of warrior women existance to do with indecent sitting position? Germanic noble women would fight barebrested - that really did happen - but still would not sit this way.

Modern is good in modern context. ME is not modern - at that by the author's explicit design.
ME is timeless. Making it modern destroys its timelessness. It will already be dated in a decade.
 
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What has the fact of warrior women had to do with indecent sitting position? Germanic noble women would fight barebrested - that really did happen - but still would not sit this way.

Modern is good in modern context. ME is not modern - at that by the author's explicit design.
ME is timeless. Making it modern destroys it timelessness. It will already be dated in a decade.

I think they'd quite like people to watch it though.

You are basing this opposition to it on a picture of a character sitting down. If the book ME is sacrosanct. Don't watch this. You WILL be disappointed. It will not be the books. Nor is it trying to be nor should it be. Those exist. They are not going anywhere. If you are going to watch it, reserve judgement for more telling signs or until the show is completed perhaps.

I used the warrior women example to point out that there is precedent for what we may be the model for this character in the inspirational cultures. It's not a good argument though. As was my point.
 
I think they'd quite like people to watch it though.

You are basing this opposition to it on a picture of a character sitting down. If the book ME is sacrosanct. Don't watch this. You WILL be disappointed. It will not be the books. Nor is it trying to be nor should it be. Those exist. They are not going anywhere. If you are going to watch it, reserve judgement for more telling signs or until the show is completed perhaps.

I used the warrior women example to point out that there is precedent for what we may be the model for this character in the inspirational cultures. It's not a good argument though. As was my point.

You are completely missing my point. I do not speak only of my personal preferences here. The urge to modernise a pretend-historic story is imho completely misplaced. This destroys the original appeal of the story and alienates the audience. If one wants to tell a modern story - do tell it. No need to force-modernise something that is not. This is neither here nor there imho.
 
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I don't think it is 'force modernising' it. Or making it something it isn't. It's storytellers telling their story. This isn't Tolkien's. I'm sure they will stay true to the core of the story. At the same time, they will want to put their own flavour into it. That is a vital part of retelling anything. Tolkien himself does it with Beowulf. 'Modernising' isn't simply making it palatable (though this is a vital part), it's telling a story that the storyteller wants to tell. Tolkien himself didn't write in a vacuum. He wrote of themes and cultural touchstones he found important. That his society valued. Middle Earth is not a historic story. Only in the sense it is from the 20th century. It is, let's not forget, fictitious and imbued with its author's personal preference. Any retelling will likewise be imbued with its tellers preferences and character. Original sources are not infallible nor sacred. They will, and should, change in the retelling. My point is, for those who do not want to see changes made, who do not want to see other hands and minds shaping a similar world, those people will not like the outcome. And that is fine and entirely valid too. But it will be different. In some small ways and some big. And yes, it will reflect the time and place it is told in and the storytellers who tell it. And that isn't bad. It's just what it is. You may disagree with those storytellers about what makes a good story or a good version of Middle Earth but it doesn't mean that shouldn't happen. It has to. That is what adaptation is.

Again, seeing a woman sitting down in a promotional image does not tell us what any of those changes may be. I personally don't see why the position is 'indecent' either.
 
I don't think it is 'force modernising' it. Or making it something it isn't. It's storytellers telling their story.

If the autors what tell their own story, they can anyday. Still Tolkien provided a pseudo- historic setting with is recognisable as such and does have some rules that the audience expects to be followed. As much as a mobile phone is out of place in Galadriel's hand so is this pose presented here. Would I see a cover with Galadriel using a mobile phone I would be worried and the same is with this image. That does not preclude the fact that a mobile using Galadriel could be a great character in a great story. Still it would not be Tolkien's ME for me.
 
If the autors what tell their own story, they can anyday. Still Tolkien provided a pseudo- historic setting with is recognisable as such and does have some rules that the audience expects to be followed. As much as a mobile phone is out of place in Galadriel's hand so is this pose presented here. Would I see a cover with Galadriel using a mobile phone I would be worried and the same is with this image. That does not preclude the fact that a mobile using Galadriel could be a great character in a great story. Still it would not be Tolkien's ME for me.

Auteurs are telling their own story. In the world of Middle Earth. Even the truest adaptation will not be the same as the books. That is not possible.

It needs to be true to the spirit, obviously. And certain staples are vital. BUT I personally do not put Galadriel sitting in this position in the same category as her using a mobile phone. That's very much a straw man.

But you're right. It won't be Tolkien's ME. That's what the books are. This will be other hands and minds versions of ME.
 
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I personally do not put Galadriel sitting in this position in the same category as her using a mobile phone.

And why is that? Modern is modern - attitudes, customs, outlooks the same way that tools are?
If we are discussing adaptation, this is an interesting point:
Are customs and mores not as much epoch-dependant as technology is?
Why would you personally have more problems with one over the other in an adaptation?
 
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Look, that's totally fine if that's your stance. If for you personally, the way she sits is the same as having her driving Tesla for example, then I can't disagree with that. That's your feelings on the matter. That's not right or wrong. It's your own stance. And that's okay. I personally don't feel that's the same but that's me.

However, my point was, if any single deviation from the books as you have read and interpreted and envisioned them is of equal crime then I do think you are setting yourself up for disappointment. But we cannot help how we feel. If that is your take, that's valid. But I would suggest possibly steering clear if you feel that strongly as I can't imagine you'll find it an enjoyable experience. Unless I've misinterpreted your feelings on the matter.

All that said, one of my favourite books is American Gods. I couldn't stand the first few episodes of the show. It was so close to the books but something about the aesthetic threw me and made me feel they just didn't get the appeal that the source material held for me. HOWEVER when they did their own stories, expanded characters and took it in its own direction, that's when it came to life as a shown in its own merits. I was able to enjoy it as it's own thing and it became one of my favourite shows.

So Rings of Power may yet surprise you not DESPITE but BECAUSE of its differences. It may not. And that's fine too. But it's all subjective. It doesn't mean the creators don't understand or love the source material or want to honour it just because their retelling is different.
 
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Look, that's totally fine if that's your stance. If for you personally, the way she sits is the same as having her driving Tesla for example, then I can't disagree with that. That's your feelings on the matter. That's not right or wrong. It's your own stance. And that's okay. I personally don't feel that's the same but that's me.

Thank you for aknowledging my reaction - in which I am not quite alone. As such why would a show want to alienate a big part of its audience before it even starts? Or are they just trying to create controversy to be talked about?

So Rings of Power may yet surprise you not DESPITE but BECAUSE of its differences. It may not. And that's fine too. But it's all subjective. It doesn't mean the creators don't understand or love the source material or want to honour it just because their retelling is different.

But you are dodging my question. I asked why do you put more weight on epoch-adequate technology than on epoch-adequate customs in an adaptation like the Rings of Power show?
 
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I didn't dodge I just chose not to really answer that bit as it’s equally a bit to intuitive and emotive and I can't quantify. I think people might also agree that a sitting pose is different to 21st century technology. But as I say, that doesn't make anyone's stance right or wrong based on popularity. It's all subjective. I do though think context matters.
 
I think it’s a magazine cover pose. I’d be surprised if it’s more than that.
This is my view on it, as well. This is likely not a still from the actual show, but rather a photo shoot the magazine had with the actors, where the photographers were the ones telling the actors how to pose. Whether the show itself had any input on the poses of photos for a magazine is debatable, but I doubt the showrunners were flown in for a magazine shoot.

I would take very little stock in the poses used to sell magazines.

EDIT: the concerning thing for me, is the sword on her back. It doesn't appear to be a two handed sword. It looks like a four-handed sword. And, being a longsword, it looks like the blade would be penetrating over a foot into whatever she's sitting on.

I could assume this sword is just photoshopped in, and made larger to bring attention to it, because, you know, it's a magazine cover. But that clearly couldn't be the case.
 
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It is aimed at a 22 audience, yet what the audience should get is also an impression of a somewhat archaic, antique world, which Arda is.I am in no way interested in putting anything down just for the sake of it.I have little joy in endulging in negativity.However if something looks wrong or weird and i get the wrong feeling from something, within the context of a piece of art like a painting, a photograph, a story or a movie, i will adress that.
 
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Here's Celebrimbor, looking like a Vulcan showing off his impressive chest:

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I like the color of the velvet fabric (finally, something not gold!), but not the costume design of that robe. Why don't elves have tailoring? I don't get it.

Also, perhaps not as serious as the Elrond situation, but WHY DOESN'T THIS GUY HAVE DARK HAIR?! I don't get it. Celebrimbor is the son of Curufin, who looks just like his father. Fëanor has raven-dark hair. So, uhhh? Did they just decide all elves are blond except for bow and arrow guy from the trailer?
 
Here's Celebrimbor, looking like a Vulcan showing off his impressive chest:

FUqUyZWXoAQfXZM


I like the color of the velvet fabric (finally, something not gold!), but not the costume design of that robe. Why don't elves have tailoring? I don't get it.

Also, perhaps not as serious as the Elrond situation, but WHY DOESN'T THIS GUY HAVE DARK HAIR?! I don't get it. Celebrimbor is the son of Curufin, who looks just like his father. Fëanor has raven-dark hair. So, uhhh? Did they just decide all elves are blond except for bow and arrow guy from the trailer?
It does look like part of the colour palate for Noldor, strangely. The cut of the outfit could be something like Renaissance Italy inspired I’m thinking - think Borgias - that could be quite Noldoresque I think.
 
Here's Celebrimbor, looking like a Vulcan showing off his impressive chest:

FUqUyZWXoAQfXZM


I like the color of the velvet fabric (finally, something not gold!), but not the costume design of that robe. Why don't elves have tailoring? I don't get it.

Also, perhaps not as serious as the Elrond situation, but WHY DOESN'T THIS GUY HAVE DARK HAIR?! I don't get it. Celebrimbor is the son of Curufin, who looks just like his father. Fëanor has raven-dark hair. So, uhhh? Did they just decide all elves are blond except for bow and arrow guy from the trailer?
Maybe the effect is different with the full costume, but this is probably thw only picture I've seen so far that doesn't look like Middle-earth to me. Looks more like something from Star Wars, to be honest.
 
Celebrimbor i actually liked...
I also like the somewhat renaissance look,,the hair color, ah yes...
What ethnicity was his mother btw?
 
Here's Celebrimbor, looking like a Vulcan showing off his impressive chest:

FUqUyZWXoAQfXZM


I like the color of the velvet fabric (finally, something not gold!), but not the costume design of that robe. Why don't elves have tailoring? I don't get it.

Also, perhaps not as serious as the Elrond situation, but WHY DOESN'T THIS GUY HAVE DARK HAIR?! I don't get it. Celebrimbor is the son of Curufin, who looks just like his father. Fëanor has raven-dark hair. So, uhhh? Did they just decide all elves are blond except for bow and arrow guy from the trailer?

I still wonder if they might be using skin tone and hair color to differentiate between the Elven and Dwarven people groups.
 
Dang...

Checking back on Tolkiengateway i found out that in another version Celebrimbor was devised as a Teleri and a descendant of Daerons!

That is way weird! But somehow nice to see that perhaps Daeron may have found some personal luck in that version of the story and even had a child...
I wonder if a possible green elven lady might have cured his sorry heart and their child wed Curufin? But of course that doesn't work within the chronology at all... SINCE Celwbrimbor is supposed to be born in Aman.
And it would of course COMPLETELY destroy Daeron's tragic tale which i just recently defended so avidly :rolleyes:
 
I still wonder if they might be using skin tone and hair color to differentiate between the Elven and Dwarven people groups.

I could totally live with the seven dwarf houses having different ethnicities, only three being european. But the elves...
I don't know.I always thought some of the Avari could be african or asian and some of the Noldor a bit more mediterranean or near eastern in appearance, but that is my personal interpretation of two single isolated, and possibly later abandoned, quotes where JRRT described some a bit darker skinned Noldor.
 
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