Amazon series: reactions to news and rumours. (Spoiler alert!)

Thank you MithLuin and Haerangil. I can't speak to the language derivation of the name (I'm not knowledgeable on that front at all). However, I did know that Hobbits had a tradition of frequently naming their daughters by flower names. Since this was a 'tradition' - can it not be assumed that the practice had gone on for some time, and that the name of almost any flower could have been used.

MithLuin - your point about Elanor being Frodo's suggestion is well taken; but is it not an assumption that this was an entirely new introduction of the flower of Elanor (or its name) to the Hobbits? The text does not specify that, I don't think.

Anyhow - I happen to be reading Unfinished Tales (my first reading & what a treat!) and I came across Elanor being mentioned in the following passage regarding a ship sailing to Aldarion & Erendis’ wedding noted to have been laden with: “flowers for the adornment of the feast, so that all that sat there, when evening was come, were crowned with elanor and sweet lissuin whose fragrance brings heart’s ease.”
Tolkien, J.R.R.. Unfinished Tales Of Numenor And Middle-Earth (p. 206). HarperCollins, hardback edition.
So we know that the flower existed from early 2nd age (and probably long before). Aldarion, with his many voyages to middle earth, could well have introduced the flower to the mainland, if it didn't already exist there. In turn, the early Harfoots could have picked up the name of the flower during their travels. This seems quite plausible to me.

I might be less plausible (though again - I am no linguist) that the various languages were wholly distinct (except perhaps the more secretive Dwarven language). Today, for example, if you travel to Italy or any European country, you will find them switching to the English word for new things as well as old - for example, 'click' (as in clicking on a web link), or the very common use of the word 'OK' in Italy, where it is almost as commonly as it is used in England or America. English itself is a mixture of many more ancient tongues. Or, take the name of the flower, the 'rose' - it has exactly the same name in Persian, French and innumerable other languages. Can we not assume that some crossing/mixing/root derivations would also be encountered in Tolkien's world?

I hope I'm not coming across as trying to blindly defend the makers of this series. But from what I've heard so far, I think it might be more fun to try and guess at their thinking process rather than assume that there was no reasonable thinking behind their decisions. I believe too (if I remember correctly from the Prancing Pony's ROP wrap-up podcast) that the Tolkien estate is either helping them or they have language scholars & Elven language translators as part of their team.

Let me know what you think.
 
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Acknowledged. But the text also states the flower was brought by the elves of Tol Eressea specifically for the wedding ceremony.There is no evidence it grew anywhere else but Eressea and Lothlorien so it is in anyways a strange choice at last.

What i find very weird is that they obviousl DO have language scholars at their hand who seem to help them out with inscriptions, either on documents or armour and weapons.AFAIK all of that was done very precisely following the standards of Cirth , Quenya, Sindarin...

But when it comes to personal names they come up with stuff like Elanor, Disa, Kemen, Largo, Adar, Theo???

I find that quite odd, to say the least...

I have however made my peace with Disa by now as i came across an old Noldorin word "Dissa" for "bride, young woman".Maybe Disa plainly is the Eregion dialect of Sindarin? The Dwarves would have known and spoken that at the time...
 
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They are curious choices. Maybe at some point once the show's started, we'll get an explanation from those involved.
I have one more thought about that ship sailing to the wedding, which I might post separately when I have a few more mins.
Cheers!
 
Haerangil said:
I have however made my peace with Disa by now as i came across an old Noldorin word "Dissa" for "bride, young woman".Maybe Disa plainly is the Eregion dialect of Sindarin? The Dwarves would have known and spoken that at the time...
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As it would not be her real name, as that would stay secret, Sindarin would actually do... Works for me.
 
Yes he also has ‘the mark of Sauron’ on his chest, I believe.

It’s interesting that there’s a linguistic team and we despite this see some rather odd name choices. I’m happy to read about the possible explanation for Disa. ‘Carine’ was just recently revealed to be a code name of some kind. Perhaps more of these names will get similar or other clarifications. But even experts make mistakes. We know Shippey and Howe were consulting on the maps Amazon released early on. But those maps had some mistakes. So it can happen, and with a production this size, the producers will have an insane amount of stuff to deal with. I’m not providing an excuse as much as a perspective. I dislike several of the names. Perhaps not as much as I used to but that’s just because the initial irritation has worn off. I mean.. “Theo”. Please, let’s have a really good explanation there
 
Haakon said:
Yes he also has ‘the mark of Sauron’ on his chest, I believe.

It’s interesting that there’s a linguistic team and we despite this see some rather odd name choices. I’m happy to read about the possible explanation for Disa. ‘Carine’ was just recently revealed to be a code name of some kind. Perhaps more of these names will get similar or other clarifications. But even experts make mistakes. We know Shippey and Howe were consulting on the maps Amazon released early on. But those maps had some mistakes. So it can happen, and with a production this size, the producers will have an insane amount of stuff to deal with. I’m not providing an excuse as much as a perspective. I dislike several of the names. Perhaps not as much as I used to but that’s just because the initial irritation has worn off. I mean.. “Theo”. Please, let’s have a really good explanation there
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I do think there’s a really practical reason too. Tolkien was very interested in language and root names and the connections and lineage and meanings of the names. So the names make sense. But they are not easy to follow. So many are incredibly similar or incredibly complex mouthfuls. And some just…don’t sound pleasant. For all the major characters they’ve obviously stuck to the names presented. But when it comes to making up names I can totally see why theyd veer from the rules of the source material for the sake of a television narrative. They want people to not mix up characters, for each individual to be unique and memorable. A general rule of writing is to not have characters with similar names or names starting with the same letter. I just got a few chapters through a book with character called Libby and Lucy and had to flick back to check I’d not misremembered the protagonist’s name. In our season 6 alone we have Beleg and Beren and Barahir of the house of Beor, Eilinel and Emeldir, Gorlim and Gorgol. That’s not a slight, that’s just how Johnny Tolks do. It can be messy for newcomers with these naming conventions. Yea, Tolkien’s world is borne of and rooted in philology but when adapting this work which, unlike previous adaptations, has such a broad range of characters, I can totally see the choice to move from the rules for what might work more simply on the tongue and in the ear.
 
What makes me really cringe is the new dialog piece between Galadriel and her dark-haired elf companion in the ruin of the "iceland-palace" about events "long ago" and things being "lost to ages" - spoken by beings already millenia of years old at that moment... A few ages ago is for them like several decades ago for us... or at least should be... So comparable to the fall of the Berlin Wall or similar. Beyong that, elves do not forget - that is actually a big part of their problems. So nothing is "lost to ages" for them, really. Is seems likes the series really makes elves just "humans with pointy ears".
 
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I’m not sure I agree although I totally get what you’re saying. They don’t forget, true, and they don’t age much themselves, but the world around them does age and change (and they want to do something about this, which Sauron uses brilliantly in his ring-creation scheme). So if the elves had been to the place before, they’d know all about it, but as it is, the place itself has “forgotten” its previous activities to some degree, if you take my meaning.
 
Haakon said:
I’m not sure I agree although I totally get what you’re saying. They don’t forget, true, and they don’t age much themselves, but the world around them does age and change (and they want to do something about this, which Sauron uses brilliantly in his ring-creation scheme). So if the elves had been to the place before, they’d know all about it, but as it is, the place itself has “forgotten” its previous activities to some degree, if you take my meaning.
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? They are Noldor, they can "talk to stones"? Even if the spirits of the stones around were all corrupted, the elves should still be able to get enough info from how far they are gone to form an idea of what must have had happend there?
 
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Yes, good points. I’m not sure though how that talking to stones works exactly. Maybe they deem it less likely to make these particular stone walls etc say anything more than a general feeling of being used for evil purposes.
 
Haakon said:
And they do get information, so
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Yeah, but the whole talk about things "lost to ages" is completely out of place for elves imho. Why should immortal elves even use those human categories when not talking directly to mortals and condescending to the mortal perspective?
 
Beleriand is literally lost to the Elves in the 2nd Age. It was drowned, and they can't go there again.

The Exiles who remain in the Second Age also consider Valinor out of reach. Galadriel may remember it, but 'now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar.'

The elven perspective is that they would like things to stay as they have always been, but the reality is that Middle-earth is very changeful, and on a rapid timescale to the Elves.

So, time marching on, places changing, mortals dying - there is a lot of loss in the life of an elf in Middle-earth, and the older the elf, potentially the more keenly that loss is felt.
 
MithLuin said:
The Exiles who remain in the Second Age also consider Valinor out of reach. Galadriel may remember it, but 'now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar.'
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Why so? The previous barrier is removed, elves from Valinor can reach Middle-Earth freely yet - as that becomes forbidden only after the Fall of Numenor. There are ships from Toll Eressea coming to Numenor and elves are able to change ships in Numenor and reach ME without any poblems (most choose not too, but some do), seeds and news can also pass freely yet? The isolation becomes an issue in the 3rd age but not yet? If somebody choose not to sail still s/he has the ability to send and receive news and items back and forth?
Galadriel surely gains the news of Finrod's successfull reembodiment and reunion with his fiancee.
The situation is far far better then in the nighmare of the 1st age. Yeah, Beleriand is lost, but with it also are its many, many horrors. Why did Galadriel leave Beleriand behind while it was still there? - because it got unbearable for her... Do not think she misses it very much.
Actually the 2nd age is the best time for elves in ME ever.
 
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