Amazon series: reactions to news and rumours. (Spoiler alert!)

I do not think it is fair to say that Galadriel does not miss Beleriand very much. True, she did leave Beleriand before it was destroyed. But as you point out, Elves have perfect memory. She remembers Beleriand clearly, and now it is gone. Her final farewell to Treebeard references their time there:

"It is sad that we should meet only thus at the ending. For the world is changing: I feel it in the water, I feel it in the earth, and I smell it in the air. I do not think we shall meet again."

And Celeborn said, "I do not know, Eldest."

But Galadriel said, "Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell!"


As for Galadriel's relationship with Valinor...in at least some versions of the story, she considers herself to be still under the Ban. Even in the Third Age, elves may go to the Grey Havens and take a ship along the Straight Path to Tol Eressëa. And yet....it is not until she tells Frodo that she will diminish and go into the West that that path becomes one that she might take. The song Námarië is in Quenya, it is a song of the Exiles (Noldor). And Tol Eressëa is not Valinor. Permission to return to Tol Eressëa is not permission to enter the Blessed Realm.
 
As for Galadriel's relationship with Valinor...in at least some versions of the story, she considers herself to be still under the Ban. Even in the Third Age, elves may go to the Grey Havens and take a ship along the Straight Path to Tol Eressëa. And yet....it is not until she tells Frodo that she will diminish and go into the West that that path becomes one that she might take. The song Námarië is in Quenya, it is a song of the Exiles (Noldor). And Tol Eressëa is not Valinor. Permission to return to Tol Eressëa is not permission to enter the Blessed Realm.

But elves from Valinor can go to Tol Eresea, those can go to Numenor and those can go to ME - you can get stuff and info to and from Valinor as much you want. You are not cut of like in the 1st or the 3rd ages.
 
To be fair, we know elves from Eressea did visit Numenor, but we do not know if they ever set foot on Middle-earth, it was an Island of the exiles mostly then iirc. We know Elves from Eldamar brought the Istari but we do not know if THEY actually set foot on middle-earth or did talk much with their kinsfolk. It wouldn't surprise me if they did NOT as long as a Noldo High-king ruled Lindon... knowing their stubbornness.For the same reason i could see they would not like to visit the Exiles on Eressea a lot.

We also do not know if Elves of Lindon ever visited Numenor... to me it always seemed Lindon and Numenor largely communicated via letters they gave Numenorean mariners who came to Lindon.

Now we cannot be SURE about these things since, just because something wasn't exactly mentioned it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Also i understand it if the TV show changes some things for easier understanding for a tv audience...

But i still dislike the dialogue. Now to be fair... i have seen trailers before and sometimes the dialogue seemed strangely off and bad and unfitting, but in the show itself it was okay. No, i am serious... how do elves talk? And why does it feel not really elf-like to me in the snippets so far...

I'm gonna watch again!
 
To be fair, we know elves from Eressea did visit Numenor, but we do not know if they ever set foot on Middle-earth, it was an Island of the exiles mostly then iirc.

We know Glorfindel took this exact route. It was not yet forbidden. Few choose it - but still it was yet open.
 
No we don't. Glorfindel, with the Istari, as an ambassador!They came from Valinor, not Eressea.They seemingly did not visit Numenor.

Doesn't prove or disprove anything in my opinion.
 
Sometimes trailer 'dialogue' does not reflect the actual scene at all. It can be heavily edited. Things that don't follow one another can be stitched together.

'How do elves talk?' is a difficult question. Peter Jackson had the actors slow down their delivery and pitch their voices lower, and all manner of 'this is what makes elves different ' details. The overall effect is distinctive, but not necessarily particularly Tolkienien elves. It could be a bit ponderous and overly serious at times.

There are several Noldor characters left in the Second Age - Gil-galad, Celebrimbor, Galadriel, and even Elrond (only a bit, but he was possibly raised by Noldor). One of the characteristics that defines the Noldor is their pride. I would hope that comes across very clearly in their dialogue. They don't have to be pompous, but there should be some easy arrogance in how they handle themselves around others. Gandalf's line about talking to himself being a habit of the old, who choose the wisest person present to converse with comes to mind. They don't have to talk aloud to themselves, but they can be rather dismissive of their interlocutors.

Also, if they are wise, they avoid even the hint of swaying someone else's decision. So, a lot of 'yes and no,' not a lot of persuasive arguments.
 
'How do elves talk?' is a difficult question.

For the Noldor we have both Gildor and Glorfindel in TLOTR as refrence - both narrated by Frodo which seems quite reliable.

Glorfindel speech sample:
"'No. He had not when I departed; but that was nine days ago,' answered Glorfindel. 'Elrond received news that troubled him. Some of my kindred, journeying in your land beyond the Baranduin, learned that things were amiss, and sent messages as swiftly as they could. They said that the Nine were abroad, and that you were astray bearing a great burden without guidance, for Gandalf had not returned. There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south. It was thought that you might turn far aside to avoid pursuit, and become lost in the Wilderness.

'It was my lot to take the Road, and I came to the Bridge of Mitheithel, and left a token there, nigh on seven days ago. Three of the servants of Sauron were upon the Bridge, but they withdrew and I pursued them westward. I came also upon two others, but they turned away southward. Since then I have searched for your trail. Two days ago I found it, and followed it over the Bridge; and today I marked where you descended from the hills again. But come! There is no time for further news. Since you are here we must risk the peril of the Road and go. There are five behind us, and when they find your trail upon the Road they will ride after us like the wind. And they are not all. Where the other four may be, I do not know. I fear that we may find the Ford is already held against us.
' "

We see long connected sentences, plenty of commas - long-winded, no abbrevations - "do not" instead of "don't", and some dramatic, archaic expressions "And they are not all." e.g. instead "And those are not all of them". But generally - a clear tendency to long sentences and complex expressions - even in a urgent situation which would command brevity in mortals.
It seems almost as if Glorfindel tried to force himself to be brief as the mortals would expect in such a situation, but his elvish nature breaks through. He start out short in his 1st passage, then his sentences get longer. Then he reminds himself: "But come! There is no time for further news." and tries to cut his sentences shorter again.

So I would expect elves to be quite long-winded when speaking among themselves. Speaking fast but overloading their sentences with plenty of (for us) unnecessary details, not optimising them to just be understandable, but having fun in complex language itself.

Conclusion: elven speech would be like a German scientific paper from 100-50 years ago when one sentence could fill a whole page.
 
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And there’s your answer as to why this dialogue may feel different.

Of course, sentences much too short, no recognisable commas, but most of all - the references to the past if it were "a foreign county" - something distant and far away - while to elves it should be their spiritual "homeland" - their very own deeply personal starting point in every consideration.
 
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Tolkien says his elves talk very melodic, more so than men, Maglor is said to have sung with a deep voice, thevelves also like to talk much and sometimes loud... who was that one elf woman who was notorious for quick talking, always forget her name...

German scientific papers o_O???

Now i love the german language but that is a big nonono... german sounds very harsh to outsiders and especially our scientific language is extremely un-emotional, long-winding, dull... it is hard to follow up, makes people sleepy and would be suited for emotional vampires, not Elves!

Just the sheer thought of Elves talking like Immanuel... :eek:
 
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Now i love the german language but that is a big nonono... german sounds very harsh to outsiders and especially our scientific language is extremely un-emotional, long-winding, dull... it is hard to follow up, makes people sleepy and would be suited for emotional vampires, not Elves!
I spoke exactly about the seemingly endless complex sentences - not about the sound.
 
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I DO get your point, but using such sentences in actual conversation is a sign of incompentence, rather than sophistication.I am aware of the irony...

Is is nowadays, was not seen as such a century or more ago.
When Catherine Morland in Jane Austen's novel Northanger Abbey said: “I cannot speak well enough to be unintelligible.” - she was described as meaning what she said. Speaking well was then speaking complicated.

Elves can speak (and think) very fast, they can follow complex sentences without any problem. They slow and simplify their speech when speaking to humans - like adults do for toddlers - among themselves they should not show any such reservations.
 
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Dunno. Glorfindel changes between quite short and 20+ sentences. He's being precise but clearly not german!

He tries his best to speak so that Aragorn and the hobbits do understand him. But he is clearly restaining himself and forcing himself to be as brief as he only can. He is clearly speaking with his brakes on.
 
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Allright? Do we have a quoteable longer conversation between two elves?

And: Could that be done on tv without hurting the audience?

 
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Allright? Do we have a quoteable longer conversation between two elves?

In the Hobbit, but this is reported by Bilbo and same with the Simarillion - also Bilbo - and Bilbo will adjust anything to suit his audience. What we have are Tolkien's words that elves speak fast and slow down their speach when speaking with humans.

And: Could that be done on tv without hurting the audience?

Having Galadriel make a proper sentence out of the "Water" comment - as they are a ease yet and not in combat mode - would be a beginning. Also letting them speak a little faster, clearer and with joy at very act of speaking - those are Quendi after all - the Speakers - as we humans call ourselves the Thinkers, the elves call themselves the Speakers...
 
Wait, are we discussing delivery or dialogue? Because naturally we have plenty of examples of elvish dialogue written by Tolkien! Celeborn, Galadriel, and Elrond all have significant dialogue in Lord of the Rings. Even Círdan has some lines provided to us in his greeting of Gandalf when he arrives in Middle-earth. And Finrod has pages of dialogue in the Athrabeth. It's true, for Gil-galad we mostly have his letter to the King of Númenor in UT, but he is not a silent character. As far as Rings of Power goes, Celebrimbor is the one they have the most limited source material on. But even he has a line in LotR with the inscription on the West Gate of Moria.

Part of adaptation is converting written text into spoken dialogue on screen. Brevity is by no means the only consideration there, but it is an important one. If anyone were to compare your film/TV show dialogue to a German scientific paper, it would be a scathing condemnation of the writers! But I would not compare Tolkien's written elvish dialogue to that, either.

I thought we were discussing delivery - how do you make a character 'sound elvish'?
 
Wait, are we discussing delivery or dialogue? Because naturally we have plenty of examples of elvish dialogue written by Tolkien! Celeborn, Galadriel, and Elrond all have significant dialogue in Lord of the Rings. Even Círdan has some lines provided to us in his greeting of Gandalf when he arrives in Middle-earth. And Finrod has pages of dialogue in the Athrabeth. It's true, for Gil-galad we mostly have his letter to the King of Númenor in UT, but he is not a silent character. As far as Rings of Power goes, Celebrimbor is the one they have the most limited source material on. But even he has a line in LotR with the inscription on the West Gate of Moria.

But those are all elves addressing mortals. Where we know elves adjust their speech down to the mortal level. And if we have elf on elf dialog - we itm through Bilbo's lense when he wrote the Silmarilion - he was not there - as such he delivers the content of those speeches as they were reported to him after ages (and we are told elves do not remember those verbatim, but only the meaning that was expressed - otherwise their language would not change much over time - or at least the oldest elves would remember all the previous stages/versions of their own language - which they explicitly do not - they still need scholars for that) or from songs or legends - not the literal original speech.

Delivery?
Clear, not slowed down (as in the discussed scene elves speak among themselves, and not to mortals), unrestrained, competent, poetic, melodious, precise with meaning, pauses and intonation - with a feel of mastery over language as a concept and its actual physical verbal expression, with actual joy in the performance - savouring the words. - No mumbling of any kind.
 
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