Amazon series: reactions to news and rumours. (Spoiler alert!)

Odola

Well-Known Member
She didn't say the name Eru or Illuvatar, but my reaction was similar to Ilanas "This is religion!" I was just not that positive about it, not because of the concept per se but because it felt so rubbed right under my nose.
And not even high-elvish religion. This concept of "faith" is imho a specific human one. Galadriel has seen the Valar themselves in her childhood - she knows, she has no need for "faith".
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Oh, but they do have concepts of faith! Quenya Astar means, faith, loyalty, belief and as Ilana mentioned Estel means faith, hope, trust!

Voronwië means steadfastness,endurance, faithfulness.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Oh, but they do have concepts of faith! Quenya Astar means, faith, loyalty, belief and as Ilana mentioned Estel means faith, hope, trust!

Voronwië means steadfastness,endurance, faithfulness.
The is the faith (-fullness) of a vassal to his lord - a important chivalric notion, but not a spiritual one.
 

Rob Harding

Well-Known Member
The is the faith (-fullness) of a vassal to his lord - a important chivalric notion, but not a spiritual one.
But the word used was faith. Nobody mentioned religion. We also don’t know the exact context of who she was talking to which can have an input. We literally don’t know what is happening yet.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
But the word used was faith. Nobody mentioned religion. We also don’t know the exact context of who she was talking to which can have an input. We literally don’t know what is happening yet.
But the chivalric one would not fit the context at all. Only the spiritual one. Which is a relation to the eternal order that comes from "outside of Arda" . Which humans can access to an extent - as that is their ultimate destination - but elves explicitly cannot - it is out of their reach, as they are limited to Arda.
 
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Rob Harding

Well-Known Member
But the chivalric one would not fit the context at all. Only the spiritual one. Which is a relation to the eternal order that comes from "outside of Arda" . Which humans can access to an extent - as that is their ultimate destination - but elves explicitly cannot - it is out of their reach, as they are limited to Arda.
Faith in friends. In family. Faith in self. Faith as trust in the intangible. It’s isn’t a binary word. There’s language that will exist that will be easily interpret by modern audiences. Not all of it will be in ‘high elvish’ speak. If an interpretation took that approach with LotR for example, we’d have to sit through interminable hours of tedious literal interpretation of the Council of Elrond. Things will be altered for audience sake. Language will be accessible but presumably not colloquial. Faith I think has a broad enough breadth of interpretation to not go against the grain.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Faith in friends. In family. Faith in self. Faith as trust in the intangible. It’s isn’t a binary word. There’s language that will exist that will be easily interpret by modern audiences. Not all of it will be in ‘high elvish’ speak. If an interpretation took that approach with LotR for example, we’d have to sit through interminable hours of tedious literal interpretation of the Council of Elrond. Things will be altered for audience sake.
Elrond no problem, he is half-elven. Finrod no problem, he befrieds humans and is ideeply nterested it those matters. But Galadriel in the 2nd Age? Where should she have the very specific human-centric knowledge from?
And faith in the family is in her case not warranted - her family are repeat-kinslayers, most of them dead or far away and most of her friends are also either dead - or in the series - not really trusting her judgement.

Language will be accessible but presumably not colloquial. Faith I think has a broad enough breadth of interpretation to not go against the grain.
It is exactly my point - the elves imho are being made too accesible - they cease to be the Other against which humans are meassured - which is almost making their elvishness bereft of any purpose in the story. - they become just long-lived humans with pointy ears. Then why bother having them at all?
 
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He went to the premiere in New York City, and discussed his first impressions on the Rings and Realms YouTube channel.

This is very promising. I’ll have to gather my boxes of tissue paper handy; I cry very easily! Unfortunately I won’t be able to watch it till Friday night or Saturday morning owing to my work schedule.

Disturbing, however, are the vast majority of the comments. I wonder how so many have the spare time to watch YouTube videos & post comments on a show they either have any intention of watching or have already made up their minds not to like. Don’t these people have to make a living?
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Disturbing, however, are the vast majority of the comments. I wonder how so many have the spare time to watch YouTube videos & post comments on a show they either have no intention of watching or have already made up their minds not to like. Don’t these people have to make a living?
Some people think themselves very clever if they find a way to 'discredit' someone else. You are welcome to respond to those people if you like, but there's very little point at this point - the show comes out in a week, and then everyone can judge for themselves what sort of production this is. And of course many things will continue to unfold over the course of the season and the show.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Fandoms are a nice distraction from actual pressing real-world problems and a nice playingground for cheap one-sided political projections. That being said... i do not trust corey always in all his judgements, we are by experience very different thinking people with very different perspectives. HOWEVER i still think we will at last get good craftsmanship, and not just cheap trash. But that is not what i am talking about or what my concerns or interest are with this show!
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Some people think themselves very clever if they find a way to 'discredit' someone else. You are welcome to respond to those people if you like, but there's very little point at this point - the show comes out in a week, and then everyone can judge for themselves what sort of production this is. And of course many things will continue to unfold over the course of the season and the show.
I do think the recent disapointments of having seen mamy older stories decontructed to their disadvantage feeds into it. Mamy people do feel robbed of good stories by the post-modern approach. They feel like something dear were in danger. The other things is the marketing - to much secrecy feeds speculation and mamy fans seemed to had have the feeling in the beginning when almost nothing has been released yet that the production team does not want fans involved. So they stopped trusting them.

I doubt elves do even make (or understand) that division!
Sure. Because elvish understanding of the spiritual one would be vague at best. But while the context of "keeping faith" to the Valar and their ancient teachings - as those have been passed down to the humans mostly by the elves themselves - is very much an elvish thing, it cannot be used to encourage but to remind people of their past commitment that they are obliged to keep. As a rule Numenor's "Faithful" are "breaking faith" - with their king, and this is a big matter - to keep their faith towards the Valar. And we have seen elves themselves almost never do it - they tend to keep their faith towards their kings even if this means openly defying the Valar. So again the use of the world seems strange - and imho out of place - in the story's context.
Elrond or even Finrod could have referred to the ancient Hope given to men - but on what basis would Galadriel have?

Relating to Rob Harding 's remark about "fath in oneself" - to an elf it would be more "faith to oneself" - being faithful to what one is/ has been, and not "in one oneself" - in what one can become. Elves tend to become less ("I will diminish....") with time, not more.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
People can feel any sort of way about the way movies are made. Posting all over Maggie and Corey's YouTube video comments that they are shills for Amazon and sell-outs simply because they did not decry everything about this project is...a bit much. I don't mind labeling those people trolls, as they did not show up to discuss, but to get their jabs in. Corey said he's excited to discuss this adaptation going forward - that's not exactly an endorsement of every choice made by the project!

I agree that Tolkien's stories are not exactly post-modern, and so much can be lost in an attempt at 'updating' them for a modern audience. But some of the concerns seem to be unfounded at this point. For instance, the early announcement that they were hiring an intimacy coordinator led to speculation of sex scenes being included. I have not heard anything since that bears that out, so remain cautiously optimisitic that this wasn't made by people who are attempting to make 'Game of Thrones in Middle-earth' or somesuch. Westeros and Middle-earth are very different places, and I would hope that no one could confuse Numenor for King's Landing! Even Númenor in its decline should not be interchangeable with that world.

Does the show capture any of the essence of Tolkien's stories? Is it about the types of things his stories are about - hope piercing the darkness, friendship between unlikely people, nobility of character and goodwill perservering in the face of temptation to despair? Pride and fear leading to falls? Death and deathlessness? Risks and daring quests and eagles? ;) It doesn't necessarily have to have all of these things to win me over, but if it's lacking the core of Middle-earth while adding a bunch of new/foreign concepts, it's not going to be very reminiscent of Tolkien for me.

(Someone who was at the same premiere as Corey and Maggie mentioned that there was pretty consistent on-theme content, with one major exception, which related to a change in the story, so...that's one of those 'where is this going??' situations.)

We shall see!

I haven't watched the more recent trailers. I've decided to watch the first two episodes of the show (and, unless I really hate it, the first season most likely), so I don't need to be sold any further - the image of the Two Trees is enough for me to give it a chance. We'll see where it goes from there.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
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I haven't watched the more recent trailers.
I have watched those and as Haerangil I do have the feeling that each one cotains elements that "feel off". Which do add up after a while to start to cause some worries. But maybe this is good as it limits my expectations and as such also the possible disapointment.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
People are forming hate-cults on the internet.The irony is they insist they are gatekeepers for Tolkien's works - which would be fine - but they talk and behave in all orcishness.What irony!
 
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