Concerns about season 5

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I already pointed out that will be the case... Angband will very soon have lost most of it's protagosists.On the other hand, possibly storytelling will soon focus more on men and elves and there will be little Angband story to tell anymore...
Gothmog dead, Boldog dead, Sauron exiled, Thuringwethil dead or exiled, Draugluin and Carcharoth dead...

Leaves us with Morgoth, Glaurung and Ancalagon so far.On the other hand i see little opportunity to build up some Orcs, Lug,Orcobal, Balcmeg and Othrod die in Gondolin, possibly in the Huor-season, Boldog and Gorgol possibly die in the Beren and Luthien season...

*shrugs*

If we have one or two edain-seasons before we come to Hurin, Huor, Beren and Earendil... maybe we won't need that many main characters in Angband at all?
We can use a couple of names when Gothmog gives commands during battle. He can't just call them "Orc 1 and Orc 2."
 
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Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Other considerations for Season 5: we have Rhogrin and Annael escaping this season. When should they escape? Should Diriel assist, ie giving Rhogrin a hammer that he uses to nail the nearest Orc, take some keys and release a few Elves? Then as this party escapes Annael joins at the back of the party?
What form should Annael’s treachery take? He is due this year.
I think Rhogrin and Annael's escape should happen around the middle of the season. At the beginning of the season, we will have a lot to do with introducing Men and with Aredhel's story. Towards the end, there should seem to be a lull in activity from Angband until, suddenly, the Battle of Sudden Flame happens. While it would be possible to have Annael's treachery take place later and be directly connected with the Dagor Bragollach, I would prefer that battle be won solely by the overwhelming strength of the assault, not treachery of any kind.

We should probably do something earlier in the season to remind viewers that Diriel, Annael, and Rhogrin are still prisoners. They do not have to be the central focus of an episode, but we should probably show them in Angband, even if only in the background, and/or have other characters remind the audience of them in some way. One idea we have talked about is having Diriel carve her name into the Orc armor or weapons she is forced to make as an act of defiance and a message that she is still alive. If we wanted, we could show Curufin discovering this, which would be something else for the Feanorians to do in Season 5.

Before or during Rhogrin's escape, I think we should set up his enmity to Balrogs by showing the Balrogs tormenting prisoners. Rhogrin's escape should definitely involve a hammer, since that will become the symbol of his house in Gondolin. Diriel should probably help the prisoners escape, if not be the mastermind behind the escape attempt. However, some circumstance should prevent her from actually getting out of Angband. She could be recaptured in a fight to get out, but I would personally prefer that she willingly choose to remain in Angband to conceal how Rhogrin and any others escape and help future escapees like Gwindor. In Season 4, Episode 8, I had Diriel and her team of prospectors captured with a lot of Feanorian lamps. I would kind of like one of Diriel's jobs to be giving these lamps to the escaping prisoners and to eventually give her own lamp to Gwindor, since it will eventually end up in Nargothrond and could be recognized by Celebrimbor.

I like the idea of Annael just stepping in at the back of the group of escapees Rhogrin leads to show that, despite the Elves' efforts, Sauron at least does know how they are escaping, and, instead of putting a stop to this, he chooses to use it to his advantage.

As for Annael's treachery, I think it should take place in Hithlum and somehow involve the characters that have been connected with Annael before, including Rhogrin, Linwen (Annael's wife), Elrhun (currently Fingon's Lieutenant, which was Rhogrin's old job), and Fingon. It also might be good to involve Fingolfin in this plotline somehow.

Some things Annael could do:
  • Try to undermine the friendship between Elves and Men in Hithlum.
  • Tell people not to be worried about Morgoth because he definitely isn't planning anything ;)
  • Sow doubt about Fingolfin, Fingon, or Rhogrin's leadership.
  • Gather information and report it to Sauron.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Maybe Annael’s treachery could have something to do with Sauron taking Tol Sirion? I agree that the success of the Dagor Bragollach as a whole should be about strength, and Sauron taking Minas Tirith should come across as a strategic victory, but it could involve Annael somehow. His treachery could help Sauron to cross the Sirion in order to attack Minas Tirith from the less defended direction, perhaps?
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Maybe Annael’s treachery could have something to do with Sauron taking Tol Sirion? I agree that the success of the Dagor Bragollach as a whole should be about strength, and Sauron taking Minas Tirith should come across as a strategic victory, but it could involve Annael somehow. His treachery could help Sauron to cross the Sirion in order to attack Minas Tirith from the less defended direction, perhaps?
I was thinking the exact same thing.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Maybe Annael’s treachery could have something to do with Sauron taking Tol Sirion? I agree that the success of the Dagor Bragollach as a whole should be about strength, and Sauron taking Minas Tirith should come across as a strategic victory, but it could involve Annael somehow. His treachery could help Sauron to cross the Sirion in order to attack Minas Tirith from the less defended direction, perhaps?
I'm not sure this would be the best form for his treachery to take. First of all, it has yet to be decided whether the taking of Tol Sirion will be a Season 5 or Season 6 event, and I think it would be best if the treachery happens sooner rather than later so we can have time to show the mistrust of escaped prisoners it causes. We would also have to explain why Annael, whose family lives in Dor-lomin, whose son holds a high-ranking position in Fingon's army, would choose to live on Tol Sirion rather than in Dor-lomin. We talked about Annael going into self-imposed exile after his treachery is discovered, which would be much less poignant if he already lives apart from his family or if his decision to go into exile happens at a time when everyone around him is being scattered by Sauron's forces. Also, I think that having Annael's treachery discovered too close to the Dagor Bragollach would be a clue that the bad guys are up to something and might partially spoil the surprise. If we do want Annael's treachery to be a warning of the Dagor Bragollach, I would prefer it be discovered by Fingolfin than Finrod since Fingolfin will be the one pushing for an attack on Angband towards the end of the season.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Well, first of all, I mean that Annael could help Sauron with the crossing of Sirion further upstream, not at Tol Sirion. Secondly, I think that would not be a surprise, it should happen after the first assault at the beginning of the Bragollach.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure this would be the best form for his treachery to take. First of all, it has yet to be decided whether the taking of Tol Sirion will be a Season 5 or Season 6 event, and I think it would be best if the treachery happens sooner rather than later so we can have time to show the mistrust of escaped prisoners it causes. We would also have to explain why Annael, whose family lives in Dor-lomin, whose son holds a high-ranking position in Fingon's army, would choose to live on Tol Sirion rather than in Dor-lomin. We talked about Annael going into self-imposed exile after his treachery is discovered, which would be much less poignant if he already lives apart from his family or if his decision to go into exile happens at a time when everyone around him is being scattered by Sauron's forces. Also, I think that having Annael's treachery discovered too close to the Dagor Bragollach would be a clue that the bad guys are up to something and might partially spoil the surprise. If we do want Annael's treachery to be a warning of the Dagor Bragollach, I would prefer it be discovered by Fingolfin than Finrod since Fingolfin will be the one pushing for an attack on Angband towards the end of the season.
Unless Annael being discovered is why Morgoth chooses his moment to attack, since the published Silmarillion says that his offensive was rushed and that if he had waited a little longer, he would have been able to crush the Elves.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
To combine the two, we could have Boldog lead an army against Doriath, it’s defeated and he is killed, security is tightened and this adds emphasis to the idea that Beren is driven by fate, for fate alone can penetrate the Girdle of Melian. Besides, Thingol will have little to do until Daeron betrays Luthien and Beren is taken to Menegroth.
Maybe, maybe not. We could have him killed after a duel with Thingol. I think I could figure out how to choreograph a duel.
It's better than having him killed off at the beginning of a season in an obviously doomed offensive.
In the "Lay of Leithian," Boldog is sent to the marches of Doriath by Morgoth to capture Luthien. Thingol leads an army out of Doriath and utterly destroys Boldog's force.
Then came word
most passing strange of Lúthien
wild-wandering by wood and glen,
and Thingol's purpose long he weighed,
and wondered, thinking of that maid
so fair, so frail. A captain dire,
Boldog, he sent with sword and fire
to Doriath's march; but battle fell
sudden upon him: news to tell
never one returned of Boldog's host,
and Thingol humbled Morgoth's boast.
This happens before Finrod and Beren are brought before Sauron because when they claim Boldog is their captain, Sauron notes, "Boldog he sent, but Boldog was slain: / strange ye were not in Boldog's train."

I would like to include Boldog's ill-fated attack on Doriath for a number of reasons:
  • Allowing us to keep the reference to Boldog when Finrod and Beren talk to Sauron. I really like the way this exchange plays out in "The Lay of Leithian," and I would prefer to keep as much as possible.
  • Demonstrating the strength of Doriath. Dorthonion has fallen. Most of the Feanorian lands have been taken. Sauron is in command of Minas Tirith. Now, Morgoth's forces have reached the marches of Doriath, and there is no reason to think this attack would be doomed. Melian's magic may be able to keep evil forces out of the land surrounded by the Girdle, but there is clearly land outside it that the Sindar feel necessary to protect; otherwise, Beleg and Turin wouldn't have anything to do when Turin is living in Doriath. A show of Doriath's military might would remind the viewers that the Sindar do not just rely on Melian's magic to protect them; they are also quite capable of fighting.
  • Creating a greater sense of danger for those outside the Girdle. Whether or not we keep the capture of Luthien as one of the motives of Boldog's attack, the fact that there is a large force of Orcs attacking Doriath will lend credibility to Thingol's desire to keep Luthien from following Beren and heighten the sense of danger when she does set out.
  • Giving Thingol something heroic to do. Thingol is going to be an antagonist of the Beren and Luthien story, but if all he does is sit on his throne and tell people what to do, I think there is a danger of him seeming all bark and no bite. Moreover, this battle would be a chance to show that Thingol is not a completely one-sided character, that he cares for his people's safety, and that he is not a coward who always hides behind the Girdle.
  • Giving Beleg and Mablung something to do. Beleg and Mablung help out with the Hunting of the Wolf, but that is pretty much all they currently have to do in Season 6. This attack on Doriath is a chance for them to have some more screentime.
  • Foreshadowing the impact of Thingol's death. A reminder that Thingol is an effective military leader will also help explain why Doriath falls apart after his death, and I would kind of like to include a brief scene where Thingol is about to set out and Melian warns him to be careful and cryptically hints that the power of the Girdle is tied to his life as well.
  • I am fine with introducing Oropher in the dungeon rescue. If we want to show his capture, that's fine too.
    This would be a great chance to introduce Oropher and show him being captured. He could be taken to Tol-in-Gaurhoth by the few Orcs who escape to bring Sauron news of Boldog's death.
I do not think killing off Boldog in the attack on Doriath will necessarily be anticlimactic, nor do I think having another bad guy killed in Season 6 will be problematic for the later story. Morgoth will be making new monsters, we have talked of showing less of the villains' story onscreen, and reducing the number of villains will help emphasize the power those who remain. For example, the Balrog Glorfindel kills won't just be one of the many captains of Angband, it will be a Balrog who has outlasted Boldog, Draugluin, Thuringwethil, Tevildo, Glaurung, Gothmog, and any other Balrogs we decide to have killed.

Already in Season 4, we have had more major villain characters than we had roles for. After the podcast hosts vetoed the presence of Werewolves in the attack on Vinyamar, Draugluin literally did nothing all season.

If we really fee like we need more major villains towards the War of Wrath, I strongly suggest developing some of the Dragons into characters. We could even have Baby Smaug!!!!!
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
In the "Lay of Leithian," Boldog is sent to the marches of Doriath by Morgoth to capture Luthien. Thingol leads an army out of Doriath and utterly destroys Boldog's force.

This happens before Finrod and Beren are brought before Sauron because when they claim Boldog is their captain, Sauron notes, "Boldog he sent, but Boldog was slain: / strange ye were not in Boldog's train."

I would like to include Boldog's ill-fated attack on Doriath for a number of reasons:
  • Allowing us to keep the reference to Boldog when Finrod and Beren talk to Sauron. I really like the way this exchange plays out in "The Lay of Leithian," and I would prefer to keep as much as possible.
  • Demonstrating the strength of Doriath. Dorthonion has fallen. Most of the Feanorian lands have been taken. Sauron is in command of Minas Tirith. Now, Morgoth's forces have reached the marches of Doriath, and there is no reason to think this attack would be doomed. Melian's magic may be able to keep evil forces out of the land surrounded by the Girdle, but there is clearly land outside it that the Sindar feel necessary to protect; otherwise, Beleg and Turin wouldn't have anything to do when Turin is living in Doriath. A show of Doriath's military might would remind the viewers that the Sindar do not just rely on Melian's magic to protect them; they are also quite capable of fighting.
  • Creating a greater sense of danger for those outside the Girdle. Whether or not we keep the capture of Luthien as one of the motives of Boldog's attack, the fact that there is a large force of Orcs attacking Doriath will lend credibility to Thingol's desire to keep Luthien from following Beren and heighten the sense of danger when she does set out.
  • Giving Thingol something heroic to do. Thingol is going to be an antagonist of the Beren and Luthien story, but if all he does is sit on his throne and tell people what to do, I think there is a danger of him seeming all bark and no bite. Moreover, this battle would be a chance to show that Thingol is not a completely one-sided character, that he cares for his people's safety, and that he is not a coward who always hides behind the Girdle.
  • Giving Beleg and Mablung something to do. Beleg and Mablung help out with the Hunting of the Wolf, but that is pretty much all they currently have to do in Season 6. This attack on Doriath is a chance for them to have some more screentime.
  • Foreshadowing the impact of Thingol's death. A reminder that Thingol is an effective military leader will also help explain why Doriath falls apart after his death, and I would kind of like to include a brief scene where Thingol is about to set out and Melian warns him to be careful and cryptically hints that the power of the Girdle is tied to his life as well.

  • This would be a great chance to introduce Oropher and show him being captured. He could be taken to Tol-in-Gaurhoth by the few Orcs who escape to bring Sauron news of Boldog's death.
I do not think killing off Boldog in the attack on Doriath will necessarily be anticlimactic, nor do I think having another bad guy killed in Season 6 will be problematic for the later story. Morgoth will be making new monsters, we have talked of showing less of the villains' story onscreen, and reducing the number of villains will help emphasize the power those who remain. For example, the Balrog Glorfindel kills won't just be one of the many captains of Angband, it will be a Balrog who has outlasted Boldog, Draugluin, Thuringwethil, Tevildo, Glaurung, Gothmog, and any other Balrogs we decide to have killed.

Already in Season 4, we have had more major villain characters than we had roles for. After the podcast hosts vetoed the presence of Werewolves in the attack on Vinyamar, Draugluin literally did nothing all season.

If we really fee like we need more major villains towards the War of Wrath, I strongly suggest developing some of the Dragons into characters. We could even have Baby Smaug!!!!!
What do we want Dragluin to do in the coming season?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Unless Annael being discovered is why Morgoth chooses his moment to attack, since the published Silmarillion says that his offensive was rushed and that if he had waited a little longer, he would have been able to crush the Elves.
Annael is Sauron's puppet, not Morgoth's, and I think Morgoth's incomplete victory should be due to his own flaws. Moreover, the reason we wanted Annael's treachery to be discovered was to cause the Elves to distrust slaves who escape from Angband in the future. The best time to show this is before the Dagor Bragollach, when the escapees still have homes to go to.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Yeah i know, canonically boldog was killed by thingol in Doriath, that's why i brought that in...
But i had not realized it happens in the mid of the story... i thought it was quasi close to the beginning

I'm totally against a young smaug... smaug was a young Dragon when he invaded Erebor, i don't know how dragons Age but to me it indicates he may have been born in the third age.We could develope Lhamthanc or Gostir if we need Dragons...
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Annael is Sauron's puppet, not Morgoth's, and I think Morgoth's incomplete victory should be due to his own flaws. Moreover, the reason we wanted Annael's treachery to be discovered was to cause the Elves to distrust slaves who escape from Angband in the future. The best time to show this is before the Dagor Bragollach, when the escapees still have homes to go to.
So at what point should Annael’s treachery be enacted? Aredhel’s death is in 400 FA, which appears to be a pretty good dividing point.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Look, I'm sorry but I still don't understand what the problem is with my idea that Annael is involved in Sauron's takeover of Minas Tirith, and I will continue to address this issue until I am convinced.
The sudden blitzkrieg attack of the orc armies and the Balrogs and the fire of Angband is Morgoth's master plan, and Sauron isn't involved. We could possibly have an attack on Doriath at some point, but that would be Boldog's attack, and Sauron would have nothing to do with it. The only attack that involves Sauron seriously is the successful attack on Minas Tirith. I can't see why anybody would want to avoid using Annael in connection to that victory. Is it because one wants to use Annael before the Dagor Bragollach? Well - then we would have to accept an attack before the Dagor Bragollach (a period of time that is supposed to be rather peaceful), and a failure at that, and I don't think we want to have Sauron fail at this point.
Although the sudden attack of Dagor Bragollach causes confusion, not everything is chaos among the elves, and there will be time to show some stages of defeat. One such step will be the taking of Minas Tirith, and I believe it will be possible to create a situation in which Annael helps Sauron and is seen doing so by people who know him. If he isn't instrumental in the fall of Minas Tirith directly, he could perhaps somehow be involved in a situation around Barad Eithel - which will survive the attack this time, but he could perhaps help the enemy across the river, which could mean that they get access to the western shore and forcing the Elves to defend the pass to Hithlum and opening the way south towards the Tol Sirion (leading to Minas Tirith being surrounded).
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Look, I'm sorry but I still don't understand what the problem is with my idea that Annael is involved in Sauron's takeover of Minas Tirith, and I will continue to address this issue until I am convinced.
The sudden blitzkrieg attack of the orc armies and the Balrogs and the fire of Angband is Morgoth's master plan, and Sauron isn't involved. We could possibly have an attack on Doriath at some point, but that would be Boldog's attack, and Sauron would have nothing to do with it. The only attack that involves Sauron seriously is the successful attack on Minas Tirith. I can't see why anybody would want to avoid using Annael in connection to that victory. Is it because one wants to use Annael before the Dagor Bragollach? Well - then we would have to accept an attack before the Dagor Bragollach (a period of time that is supposed to be rather peaceful), and a failure at that, and I don't think we want to have Sauron fail at this point.
Although the sudden attack of Dagor Bragollach causes confusion, not everything is chaos among the elves, and there will be time to show some stages of defeat. One such step will be the taking of Minas Tirith, and I believe it will be possible to create a situation in which Annael helps Sauron and is seen doing so by people who know him. If he isn't instrumental in the fall of Minas Tirith directly, he could perhaps somehow be involved in a situation around Barad Eithel - which will survive the attack this time, but he could perhaps help the enemy across the river, which could mean that they get access to the western shore and forcing the Elves to defend the pass to Hithlum and opening the way south towards the Tol Sirion (leading to Minas Tirith being surrounded).
I think the problem lies in why Annael would be that far south away from his family and his self-exile would be undermined if he was living apart from them when his treachery occurred.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I think the problem lies in why Annael would be that far south away from his family and his self-exile would be undermined if he was living apart from them when his treachery occurred.
Far south? Close to the Barad Eithel, is that far south? And who says he has to live apart from his family? (I mean I understand that Tol Sirion could be considered being too far south, but the river shore stretches far north from the island, so there's no need to place him there)
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Far south? Close to the Barad Eithel, is that far south? And who says he has to live apart from his family? (I mean I understand that Tol Sirion could be considered being too far south, but the river shore stretches far north from the island, so there's no need to place him there)
I think I see what you mean regarding distance, but considering that Annael's son is a subordinate of Fingolfin's or Fingon's, wouldn't he not want him too far away, while Tol Sirion is not under either Fingolfin or Fingon's jurisdiction?
 
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