Dwarves: S3 and beyond

Yes I count Naugladur, Fangluin and Bodruith as Names. They are, even back then, more titles or Nicknames and they are Goldogrin, but could be treated as dialect forms of Sindarin (We have Telchar, an equally obscure Name, so I guess that´s okay).

Fangluin could be of mixed descend... therefore the different hair colour (well he seems to have looked outstanding, otherwise he wouldn#t have had that nickname.. "Readbeard" for a firebeard-dwarf wouldn't make much sense as everyone of them would supposedly have a fiery beard).

It is not said directly but i think it can be deduced that as the main contractors both Fangluin and Naugladur had their hands in the making -not of the Nauglamir itself- but the version of it wghich had the Silmarill worked in (which of copurse didn't exist yet back then in the Lost tales.. i´m merely connecting loose ends here..).

So ok. When could the Nauglamir have been made? I guess not too early, with the discovery of Nargothrond/Nulukkizdin?
 
I really want to use JRRT's story. He always, always said the Nauglamir was made for Thingol, not for Finrod. Giving it to Finrod was CRT's editorial alteration of the story just to shorten and simplify the narrative. We don't have any need to do that, so we shouldn't. The longer version of the story is more interesting.

I didn't read Fangluin as involved in actually making the Nauglamir, but as opposed to it. I only skimmed that chapter, though. Regardless, his name is valid in LotR-style Sindarin. Fang- and -luin both occur with the same meanings in Fangorn and Eredluin.

Bodruith could mean "to prohibit anger" if it was changed to Bodaruith or Bodaruth. It might be worthwhile to come up with a reason or personality trait for such a nickname. If he's an official ambassador from Belegost to Nogrod, he might be skilled in soothing arguments and encouraging compromises in heated situations. Maybe he's also the ambassador to Thingol in that time period.
 
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In what version of the story does Hurin get the Nauglamir from Nargothrond and throw it at Thingol's feet?
Only ever in CRT's shortened rewriting of the story. JRRT never wrote that in any version at all. In every version JRRT wrote, a group of multiple people (Men in most versions) bring a pile worked and unworked gold and silver and gems from Nargothrond, and the Nauglamir is made entirely from scratch, in Doriath, out of the gems and unworked metal.

The only reason CRT changed it was to get rid of the Men who followed Hurin to Nargothrond, because he thought it took up too much space in the text. That's the only reason for this change: to shorten the story by removing details. In a project to expand the Silmarillion instead of contracting it, removing details is unnecessary. We want detail, not a short-short summary version.

The claim that the Dwarves have a right to the treasure is based not on having made the Nauglamir for Finrod, but on Mim having taken possession of the treasure before Hurin slew him.


Details:

Tale of the Nauglafring: Thingol sends Elves and Gnomes to raid the caves of the Rodothlim, and they bring back sacks and casks of treasure. Mortal outlaws are also involved somehow (I didn't read the details), and they fight the Elves for the gold and are killed in Doriath.
1926 Sketch: Hurin and outlaws raid Nargothrond and throw a pile of gold at Thingols' feet "with reproaches."
1930 Quenta: Hurin gathered outlaws and plundered Nargothrond. The outlaws kill each other fighting over the gold along the road. Hurin convinces Thingol to send Elves to carry a pile of gold back to Doriath and then humiliates Thingol with it.
early 1030s Annals: Hurin gathers men who take the treasure from Nargothrond to Thingol. (the text has few details)
Later Annals: (same as in the Earlier Annals)
1937 Quenta: (abandoned without writing this section)
early 1950s Grey Annals: (abandoned without writing this section)
1950s Tale of Years: Hurin takes the treasure of Glaurung to Menegroth (the text is very sparse on details, doesn't mention outlaws or Elves)
late 1950s Wanderings of Hurin: Hurin gathered some Edain former thralls who had survived in Hithlum but were homeless and hunted due to the pointless "rebellion" Turin started when he burned Brodda's hall (in the Narn). They follow Hurin both because they can't survive in Hithlum any longer, and because he's their rightful lord. He leads them first to Brethil (where they're temporarily separated from him) and then picks up some surviving losers of the Brethil civil war (which he incited). " 'Whither shall we go?' They must [?know] a place of refuge. They go towards Nargothrond." (The text was abandoned at this point.)

The way the pile of treasure gets to Doriath is in 3 of 5 versions in the hands of Hurin and the mortal outlaws following him. (I think the versions using Elves aren't as good.) The origin of these outlaws and why they follow Hurin is described in detail in the Narn and The Wanderings of Hurin, respectively.

EDIT: In fact, I would say that if you read the Narn and Wanderings of Hurin, removing the outlaws would require extra explanations to justify why they stopped following Hurin, and where they went instead: they barely escaped Hithlum with their lives, and were threatened with death if they ever again tried to enter Brethil or the south-Taeglin woods.




When describing in HoME XI (p. 354-6) why he rewrote the story, CRT said that he later concluded it was a mistake to make such changes.

(I do think CRT's explanation of how Thingol died is acceptable, because JRRT's only version was that a dwarf army invades Doriath without regard for the Girdle, and he himself crossed it out and said that was impossible, but never replaced the story with a new one. But I think we're also free to think of another way to kill Thingol, if we want.)
 
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Only ever in CRT's shortened rewriting of the story. JRRT never wrote that in any version at all. In every version JRRT wrote, a group of multiple people (Men in most versions) bring a pile worked and unworked gold and silver and gems from Nargothrond, and the Nauglamir is made entirely from scratch, in Doriath, out of the gems and unworked metal.

The only reason CRT changed it was to get rid of the Men who followed Hurin to Nargothrond, because he thought it took up too much space in the text. That's the only reason for this change: to shorten the story by removing details. In a project to expand the Silmarillion instead of contracting it, removing details is unnecessary. We want detail, not a short-short summary version.

The claim that the Dwarves have a right to the treasure is based not on having made the Nauglamir for Finrod, but on Mim having taken possession of the treasure before Hurin slew him.


Details:

Tale of the Nauglafring: Thingol sends Elves and Gnomes to raid the caves of the Rodothlim, and they bring back sacks and casks of treasure. Mortal outlaws are also involved, and they fight the Elves for the gold and are killed in Doriath. (I haven't read the whole story in years.)
1926 Sketch: Hurin and outlaws raid Nargothrond and throw a pile of gold at Thingols' feet "with reproaches."
1930 Quenta: Hurin gathered outlaws and plundered Nargothrond. The outlaws kill each other fighting over the gold along the road. Hurin convinces Thingol to send Elves to carry a pile of gold back to Doriath and then humiliates Thingol with it.
early 1030s Annals: Hurin gathers men who take the treasure from Nargothrond to Thingol.
Later Annals: (same as in the Earlier Annals)
1937 Quenta: (abandoned without writing this section)
early 1950s Grey Annals: (abandoned without writing this section)
late 1950s Wanderings of Hurin: Hurin gathered some Edain former thralls who had survived in Hithlum but were homeless and hunted due to the pointless "rebellion" Turin started when he burned Brodda's hall. They follow Hurin both because they can't survive in Hithlum any longer, and because he's their rightful lord. He leads them first to Brethil (where they're temporarily separated from him) and then picks up some survivors of the Brethil civil war (which he caused). " 'Whither shall we go?' They must [?know] a place of refuge. They go towards Nargothrond." (The text was abandoned at this point.)

The way the pile of treasure gets to Doriath is in most versions in the hands of Hurin and the mortal outlaws following him. (I think the versions using Elves are sillier.) The origin of these outlaws and why they follow Hurin is described in detail in the Narn and The Wanderings of Hurin, respectively. In fact, I would say that if you read the Narn and Wanderings of Hurin, removing the outlaws would require extra explanations to justify why they stopped following Hurin, and where they went instead: they barely escaped Hithlum with their lives, and were threatened with death if they ever tried to enter Brethil.


When describing in HoME XI (p. 354-6) why he rewrote the story, CRT said that he later concluded it was a mistake to make such changes.

(I do think CRT's explanation of how Thingol died is acceptable, because JRRT's only version was that a dwarf army invades Doriath without regard for the Girdle, and he himself crossed it out and said that was impossible, but never replaced the story with a new one. But I think we're also free to think of another way to kill Thingol, if we want.)

Well, I can tell you that in my estimation, the tone of Hurin's journey after his release from Angband works better as a lonely one. If he is stopping off to gather a bunch of guys on the way, it seems weird that he goes and commits suicide later. I'll try to find time to read it later, but quite honestly, for now I'm fine with the version that is in the Published Silmarillion.
 
Have you read the Wanderings of Hurin? I think it's a very good, tragic story and should not be dismissed without reading it first. At the very least, I do not want to pre-emptively change the Wanderings of Hurin or Nauglamir stories before we even get around to telling them, by unnecessarily giving the Nauglamir to Finrod.


Do you feel that we need to tell Turin's story with no outlaws existing in Hithlum at all? They serve a valuable purpose in the Narn: their plight, caused by Turin himself, demonstrates how his curse and recklessness bring greater woe to the remnants of his own people when he tries to help them. And if they exist and are in that plight, following Hurin out of Hithlum is their only hope to survive long-term after the mess Turin caused. (Unless we change it to say the Easterlings killed every last one of them before Hurin showed up.)
 
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Have you read the Wanderings of Hurin? I think it's a very good, tragic story and should not be dismissed without reading it first. At the very least, I do not want to pre-emptively change or eliminate the Wanderings of Hurin story before we even get around to telling it, by unnecessarily giving the Nauglamir to Finrod.

I understand. I'll take a look at it. Fortunately, we aren't going to run into this problem until next season at the earliest.
 
Hurin does spend his time in Brethil alone, if that makes you feel better. He also wanders off alone, temporarily, to seek a way into Gondolin which reveals the location to Morgoth. But the outlaws serve a purpose in the narrative by inflaming the fear of Hardang by naming Hurin when they try to gain entrance to Brethil, and that helps lead Hardang to the unfortunate actions he takes which help lead to the civil war...

It's an intricate mess and a good companion to the Narn itself. It emphasizes how Morgoth damaged Hurin's sanity. It also ties together the final ends of Morgoth's curse on Hurin and his children: Turin has brought the ruin of Nargothrond, woe to Hithlum's Edain, and death to Beleg and Brandir. Hurin now unintentionally dooms Gondolin, accidentally-on-purpose ruins Brethil, and purposely or accidentally precipitates the fall of Doriath. It's heartbreaking.
 
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I know Corey has mentioned Hurin a few times saying he’s awesome and indicating that he wants to make something of the stories about him. I haven’t read them but I guess they’re on my list.
 
I know it’s also not a good idea to preemptively require the full Wanderings of Hurin story as a result of not giving the Nauglamir to Finrod. And I know you’re very busy and don’t necessarily have time to read it, Nick. I’ve been thinking up a solution to this that basically lets us prepare for both options, but I’m on my phone at work. So I beg time to get home to a real keyboard before I tell.
 
There is a narrative. ..cliff...in JRRT'S later writing. We get this incredibly detailed telling of the tale of Turin, almost to LotR levels. And this lasts through the end of Hurin's story. And then...nothing. Brief sketches and notes and Annal entries for the rest of the First Age material. It's very abrupt, and super disappointing that we don't get the stories of the fall of Gondolin, or Thingol 's death, or the tale of Earendil. For this project, we will be telling all of those stories in detail, and making choices about how to present them. It's the part of the project I am most excited about, because I think it's the area of the story that will benefit most from a thoughtful fanfiction treatment.

But it also is the part of the story most open to interpretation. So, naturally, we'll have some differences of opinion on how to handle it. I don't think there is any reason to automatically discard CJRT's treatment of the story, and so we'll have to hash out the Nauglamir part of the story when we get there.

The important part for now is that we want Thingol to be in conflict with an old venerable dwarf *that the audience knows*. So, if that is going to be Gamil Zirak, then we need some important deed for the young Zirak to do, preferably jewelry craft related. For now, we're calling that the original fashioning of the Nauglamir. That can be replaced by something else, but not deleted.
 
There is a narrative. ..cliff...in JRRT'S later writing. We get this incredibly detailed telling of the tale of Turin, almost to LotR levels. And this lasts through the end of Hurin's story. And then...nothing. Brief sketches and notes and Annal entries for the rest of the First Age material. It's very abrupt, and super disappointing that we don't get the stories of the fall of Gondolin, or Thingol 's death, or the tale of Earendil. For this project, we will be telling all of those stories in detail, and making choices about how to present them. It's the part of the project I am most excited about, because I think it's the area of the story that will benefit most from a thoughtful fanfiction treatment
Yeah, when it comes to how the Dwarves quarrel with Thingol, kill him, and sack Doriath, we'll basically be making up whatever we want. There are a few details from post-LotR writing that are actually useable which I'd prefer to incorporate, but most of what JRRT wrote is Lost Tales material and completely unsuitable to Thingol, Doriath, and the Dwarves as later depicted. Likewise with Earendil's voyages, which were never written at all... ever. We'll be in total fanfic territory.

I don't think there is any reason to automatically discard CJRT's treatment of the story, and so we'll have to hash out the Nauglamir part of the story when we get there.
But, I don't think there's any reason we automatically have to make the same exact changes CRT did. Giving the Nauglamir to Finrod before Thingol does seem to change the meaning of the story somewhat.

As promised, here's a suggestion how to not change the Nauglamir story (not give it to Finrod) and still give us freedom to tell or discard the Wanderings of Hurin story when we come to it: if Hurin has outlaw companions from Hithlum, they can carry a fairly large amount of gold from Nargothrond and we can potentially incorporate additional stuff from the Lost Tales about all the extra stuff the Dwarves made out of the gold, besides the Nauglamir. If there's major opposition to the existence of the outlaws, Hurin alone can't carry a huge pile of treasure. But he can carry away from Nargothrond the silver crown of Finrod and Orodreth, and pieces of jewelry and gemstones. Other than spices, gemstones and jewelry were historically one of the most portable, compact forms of wealth, before paper money and bank credit. Even though Hurin wasn't strong enough to dig a grave and bury Morwen alone, I think it's plausible to show him carrying a small sack of jewelry, and a crown as long as it isn't a huge helmet-style crown like Gondor's.

The important part for now is that we want Thingol to be in conflict with an old venerable dwarf *that the audience knows*. So, if that is going to be Gamil Zirak, then we need some important deed for the young Zirak to do, preferably jewelry craft related. For now, we're calling that the original fashioning of the Nauglamir. That can be replaced by something else, but not deleted.
The one argument I see in favor of the Nauglamir instead of Finrod's silver crown is that the silver crown probably should be made about the time Nargothrond is finished, which gives Gamil Zirak an excessively long lifespan. But the Nauglamir could be made later in the Siege, to give the maker a more normal lifespan (not greater than 350-400). However, it doesn't have to be the Nauglamir.

Another option is to make Gamil Zirak the Nogrod ambassador, perhaps the Firebeard equivalent* of Bodruith from Belegost. If Gamil Zirak is a jewelsmith and the ambassador to the elf-kingdoms, he'll appear in interspecies trades and political contexts -- in Doriath and potentially in Nargothrond and other Noldorin kingdoms. That would potentially let us use him in more episodes than one single work of craft -- though we'd have to come up with political events that call for an ambassador. He might plausibly start his ambassadorial career mid-Siege, but appear before then as a young jewelsmith who visits Nargothrond and/or Caranthir. As Ambassador he could help coordinate Nogrod's cooperation with the Noldor during the Union of Maedhros, and perhaps even during the Siege itself. He could participate in that lucrative trade with Caranthir (though it would expand his lifespan excessively if he's involved in starting it). He could be on screen during Eol's machinations to try to stir up unfriendliness to the Noldor among the Dwarves -- Zirak could be either for or against Eol's message.

An ambassadorial position also gives us opportunities to really flesh out his personality, in preparation for how he will quarrel with Thingol. Do we want Zirak to be overly proud and easily offended? Or somebody who doesn't take offense easily, even from Caranthir? Somebody who soothes tensions, or tends to enflame them? Smooth-talking, calm-talking, purposely a jerk, or foot-in-mouth? We can think about how we want to set him up for his role in the Nauglamir quarrel, and then display his personality through his diplomatic interactions with "Naugladur," Thingol, Azaghal, Bodruith/Bodaruith, Finrod, Eol, Caranthir, Maedhros, etc.

EDIT: I don't mean that the details of the quarrel with Thingol should be worked out in advance, but that we can decide a rough estimate of how much of a jerk Zirak is, and how much of the conflict is Thingol's fault. I think we have huge latitude here -- as long as Zirak is at least somewhat sympathetic. Even a hothead like Turin has readers who like him.


* not the word I wanted. what is the word??? com-something? contemporary? complement? compatriot? coeval? coequal? corrollary? not colleague
 
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I don't know which sources TolkienGateway uses. In the last Tale of Years and Wanderings of Hurin, c. 1958: The Nauglamir was wrought in 502, the same year Hurin and Asgon's band of outlaws raided Nargothrond, killed Mim, and carried a bunch of Finrod's treasure to Menegroth. Thingol was killed the next year, 503. There was no great delay between the three events. The Nauglamir was made in a single event, including the Silmaril from the beginning. So yes, I think it's fair to assume the same team of craftsmen did the whole projecct.

500: Hurin was released from Angband, went to Dor-Lomin, met Asgon and his band of outlaws
501: Hurin & the outlaws left Dor-Lomin. Hurin accidentally revealed Gondolin's overall location to Morgoth's spies. They went to Brethil. Hurin found Morwen, who died, and then he incited a civil war. Ruin of Brethil.
502: Hurin & the outlaws came to Nargothrond. Hurin killed Mim. (How exactly the treasure was carried to Doriath was not specified in these two texts, except Hurin was involved.) The Nauglamir was wrought. Thingol quarrelled with the Dwarves who made it.
503: Dwarves invaded Doriath and killed Thingol. Melian left Middle-earth. (In the margin and in notes JRRT wrote that an invasion was impossible. But he never made a new story.)
(There follow a few different versions of how Beren and Luthien got the Nauglamir, and when Dior got it.)

(In earlier tales of years and the Annals, the dates differ by 1 or 2 years, but the Necklace is always made in the year before Thingol's death. They're calendar years so the events could be 1 month apart for all I know. It's made in the same year Hurin got to Nargothrond, or the year after.)


I think it's important to know what the original texts say, so we can understand exactly what would be changed by the proposed replacement story/stories.

It's also important to be able to connect to the forum!
 
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When I was about 9-10 years old, I came across one of my other literary loves, The Swiss Family Robinson. I listened to the book on tape during a long family road trip to Florida and back. I compelled my parents to buy me a copy when we returned home, and read it over and over again. I can still hear the recording in my head when I read it.

As an adult, I came across a copy of it in a used book store and picked it up, thinking the one I had as a child lost to time. To my dismay, I found it quite different. A lot of the very familiar wording had changed, and many story elements were completely different or just missing. Some research lead me to an understanding that there is no definitive translation of the work. Worse still, many translators got creative with the story. Some elements that I loved may not have been the work of the author at all. Yet, I still resist any version that is not the one I read as a child.

I tell this story because I feel compelled to weigh in on the HoME vs PubSil issue. The amount of people who have read the Silmarillion is already a small group and most of those (myself included) have not read the Home in completion or even at all. That means that for most readers, the story they fell in love with is the published Silmarillion, which is why I generally err that way unless the Home version works better for our medium or provides us with extra details.

I'm not opposed to using the other material in general and I do intend to read at least the relevant text in question for this discussion before I fully cement a position on this particular issue, but just understand that many may be resistant to "new" versions of the story just as some might be resistant to changes made to a work for film adaptation purposes.
 
If I can access the forum enough to actually post,

That is a valid point about audience reactions that I hadn't considered. Since the TV audience is entirely hypothetical I tend not to think about anyone but ourselves reading this.

I do stand by my belief that it's better to know precisely what the original versions are and to make any changes deliberately and thoughtfully, rather than accidentally.
 
I also am of the 'know everything and make your choices be informed ones' camp - but by know 'everything'...I do tend to mean *everything* - so that includes the published Silmarillion, the Lost Tales versions of the stories, Tolkien's later versions, LotR-compatible or not, what various fanfic authors have done with the material, etc.

Our final product doesn't have to be a synthesis of all of that. We can throw out anything we don't like/don't want. I think that the Nauglamir's origin is still an open question in this project, as it has *only* been brought up tangentially in this discussion of the role of the dwarves - but it was brought up as the published Silmarillion version at that time. So, anyone wanting an alternative version will have to make the appropriate arguments when we get to that stage of Season 4.

And I know that, of all the 'editorial' changes to the published Silmarillion, this one might be one of the more significant alterations from Tolkien's original work. That, and assigning Fingon as Gil-galad's father. But, in both cases, when these things were tangentially mentioned....it was with a default published-Silmarillion viewpoint.

Certainly, if this were a purely academic project, one could argue for a preference for Tolkien's last word on the subject. But, since this is a creative project, we're going to focus on adaptation and storytelling, so that's not necessarily the number one priority. The guiding principle thus far has been 'published Silmarillion - with fun embellishments from HoME and UT as desired.'
 
I agree that we should keep to the PubSil if we can, and when we find inconsistencies or when there are plot holes, we go to the notes or HoME material. As you say, we also have to make up a lot of the stories.
Regarding the idea JRR abandoned: I think there are ways to make the impossible possible - to keep the Dwarf attack. I’m not actually suggesting these things but I can come up with a few ideas (I’m sure there are others, better ones):
1. The Dwarves are already in Doriath as a more or less permanent workforce.
2. The Dwarves enter Doriath under false pretences and then make a surprise attack.
3. Melian’s power is waning.
 
I am sometimes unhappy with the pubsil and I think a lot of JRRT´s later ideas that did not make it into the pubsil are actually better and more interesting than the pubsil Version. The Book of lost Tales Material is pretty raw and sometimes has a childish and fairytale-like naivity which i dislike, however it has on many occasions more detials than any of the other versions and I think we should use it to borrow ideas and names we could find useful to flesh out things and close some gaps.
 
1. The Dwarves are already in Doriath as a more or less permanent workforce.
This is more-or-less the solution Christopher Tolkien adopted, at least for the Dwarves who kill Thingol himself.

JRR Tolkien (tentatively) suggested a different possibility: that somehow Thingol is tricked into going to war outside his borders, and killed there.

In both of those scenarios, once he dies Melian leaves Doriath. Her departure leaves Doriath defenseless and then the Dwarven army can sack the whole country. (If we used that, we would need to either use CRT's explanation for what looks like abandonment, or come up with our own.)



We could also have enough Dwarves to make an army already present inside the Girdle.

In the Lost Tales, the Dwarves are led into Doriath by a treacherous Gnome, but I don't like that story. For one thing, it seems clumsy, and for another I don't think even the Feanorian survivors from Nargothrond would do such a thing, after abandoning Curufin and Celegorm for committing treachery against their previous hosts. It seems like any Feanorians who would be inclined to do things like that over a Silmaril would have joined Curufin and Celegorm in returning to the east.

We could borrow the idea by having a dwarf who is present doing work in Doriath lead the Dwarven army into Doriath, but it doesn't seem to make sense for a non-Sinda (dwarf or Noldo) to even be able to lead somebody through the mazes. I'd think if they left to meet their conspirators on the other side, they'd be unable to find their own way back in.
 
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