Frame Narrative

Oh I get that. And let me be clear that I don't think this is wrong or bad. It's more difficult though. Usually it's easier to represent inner conflict visually if you can transform it into action.
 
Yes, as I said, it'll work. Let's let's look ahead and make the best of what we've got to work with. - And have no doubt, it will be The Best.
;)
 
Yes, as I said, it'll work. Let's let's look ahead and make the best of what we've got to work with. - And have no doubt, it will be The Best.
;)
Grab a bag, Haakan, and join me in distributing the self-congratulatory high-fives. :3
 
The friend is there with her for the first 5 episodes, at least (not shown until ep 2, and conflict introduced in ep 3). Then we are transitioning to Arwen's own decision about what she should do - not her friend, not her mom. We do still rely on flashbacks to tell Celebrían's story, but I think that overall these should be fairly interesting flashbacks (orc attack, rescue, a glimpse of Elrond in Rivendell failing to heal her, and possibly a 4th scene in the Mirror-montage of Celebrían arriving in Tol Eressëa).

Also, I will argue that we *have* to leave Lothlorien at some point, because the contrast between the timelessness of Lothlorien and the changefulness of mortal lands is something that we have to show on screen and not just talk about. We can have Arwen interact with the Men of the Anduin, and Trish wants to know if Arwen's 'activism' is still in - is Arwen trying to change the world to make it better? I think that, if so, we can show her commitment to staying in Middle Earth is a lot more than 'guess I just won't go anywhere just yet.' That is something we can develop later in the season.

We did share the ideas with the Hosts - go look in the palantir! Take a trip through Middle Earth! - and they had serious concerns about this making the Frame way too busy and requiring a lot of exposition that we just don't have time for. They felt the same way about the Festival of the Stars in episode 2, and while not asking us to cut it, very much wanted to sideline/drop it in the background.

We stopped planning at Episode 7, which is already quite full and has 2 weddings in it in the Main story. Not sure what we'll do in the frame but I imagine the frame will be very light there.
 
Inner conflict is extremely difficult to represent on screen, and multiple scenes of Arwen staring off into the middle distance with a troubled look on her face isn't going to convey her growth or changing perspectives to the audience. We'll have to do better than that. But, with dialogue and her interactions with other characters, we should be able to make that happen. We shall see. Keeping this frame better than last season's frame is going to be a bit tricky.
 
As an example of a movie that tries to convey the interior life of its young heroine, there is this attempt at the life of St. Thérèse of Liseux. It is...not considered to be a good film, to say the least. 'Dramatizing' interior life either fails to convey what is happening, or over-dramatizes the exterior events to compensate for it. Granted, this film was made with more devotion in mind than professional skill, and is a bit more amateur (though that is not to say that no one involved had film experience). I have heard it reviewed as 'Pollyanna joins the convent,' so...quite possibly there are other issues. But honestly...how on earth would you put the simplicity of the private life of St. Thérèse on film anyway? Those who lived with her were mostly ignorant of all of this - the only reason anyone knows her story is because she wrote an autobiography.


I am not saying that the story we are trying to tell with Arwen this season is equally challenging....but I am suggesting that it will be a challenge to tell it well.
 
Fear the Walking Dead has for the past two years run a web series that consisted of 16 two-minute long episodes that was able to (for the most part) establish concise two minute stories while at the same time blending them into one cohesive 32 minute overarching story. This story isn't really a frame, but it shows that it can be done.

It's difficult, but not impossible, to have one Arwen arc consisting of several mini-arcs. Is the goal to have each part relate to something within each episode, or to have the overall arc allude to the overall arc of the season? If we aim for the former, we have a better chance of a cohesive frame story for the season. If we aim for the former, the overall arc might seem a little disjointed.
 
Let me be a troublemaker: I was wondering... Would it be at all possible to change Arwen's arc? Perhaps she could be positive to leaving Middle-earth in the beginning (but missing her mother) or at least taking it for granted that she's going to leave one day (like her brothers are) and then, pehaps as a reaction to her friend leaving or as a reaction to revisiting the story of the season, realise that she is against leaving.

Maybe I misremember or have misunderstood, but I have taken it that she's inclined to staying more or less from the start. She resents her mother because she doesn't understand her motives for leaving. If she instead just misses her in the beginning of the season, but sees a future in which they will meet and longs for it, and then changes her perspective through an understanding of how the Great Journey was wrong in the first place, her arc will be more interesting.
 
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Heh, if that's you being difficult, then by all means, keep being difficult! This frame is very nebulous, in that most of the drama is internal growth for Arwen, so thinking of ways to make that visible, concrete, specific, and changing over time (without, of course, being too heavy handed) is a challenge that we have to address. I might (personally) not want to revisit the beginning episodes too much, but if the ending episodes feel they are lacking in any kind of pay-out....then we haven't set them up right and at least need to tweak the story we are telling. I think Brian had some stuff worked out, but I don't know if he'll be able to make it this week for the follow-up on the Frame.

Here is what we have, based on the last discussion (linked above):

Episode 1: The Awakening of the Elves Flashback of Celebrían being attacked by orcs. We meet Arwen and Celeborn. They discuss how the Shadow has always been there.

Episode 2: The Ambassadors in Valinor

Frame: (1) Arwen is preparing/dressing, with her confidant [?name]. It is on the eve of an Elvish festival celebrating starlight and she shares her anticipation and excitement for the festival to come, happy to share one last one together with [friend]. During a formal ceremony, Galadriel gives Arwen a starry cloak. Arwen gives Galadriel a tapestry she made showing Varda making the stars. A courtier remarks on the strangeness of the imagery. Galadriel and Arwen share an informal moment, where Galadriel reminds Arwen that Varda is not well-known in Lothlorien. Arwen understands that, and mentions that she doesn't know the Valar any better than the elves of Lothlorien, even if she is considered a High Elf herself. She asks Galadriel what Varda is like?
(2) Galadriel and Arwen discuss Varda's character, and why she is (essentially) the patroness of the elves.

Episode 3: The Great Debate

Frame: (1) Arwen speaks with her friend, and it is revealed that she has made a decision that has upset Arwen. Arwen tries to talk her out of it, but is unsuccessful.
(2) Arwen is upset that her friend is leaving, but not only that, they are spending their last days together fighting. She talks to Celeborn, who reminds her that she is not responsible for her friend’s choices, and says something about how difficult it is when those we love choose a different path.
(3) Arwen speaks with her friend?

Episode 4: The Great Journey

Frame: (1) Arwen's brothers Elladan and Elrohir arrive in Lothlorien.
(2) Arwen and her brothers discuss their family while looking at the Misty Mountains. Arwen expresses regret that their mother cannot be there with them.
(3) Flashback to the rescue of Celebrían from the den of the orcs at the hands of her brothers. Arwen realizes that you can't save everyone.

Episode 5: The Forsaken (Círdan and Olwë)

Frame: (1) Arwen’s friend is preparing leave Middle Earth, taking advantage of the peacetime created by the Battle of Five Armies to journey to the Sea.
(2) Arwen’s friend says her final farewell. She expresses the hope that they will see one another in Valinor someday. Arwen does not respond in kind, but realizes this is a choice she will have to make for herself someday. Galadriel and Celeborn are present at this leave-taking, as silent reminders of that choice.

Episode 6: Elvenhome

Frame: (1) Arwen and her brothers discuss her friend’s departure, and that leads to a conversation about their mother’s departure as well.
(2) Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen memorialize their mother. Arwen has come to accept that going into the West was the right thing for her mother to do, and that there was no healing for Celebrían here in Middle Earth.

We have also inserted some frame story into (some) of the script outlines that we've been working on, so I'll include that below (with the understanding that these are more 'tentative' than what was given above).

Episode 7: Spirit of Fire ???
Episode 8: Trial of Melkor ???

Episode 9: Silmarils
Frame: (1) Arwen explains to Galadriel that it's difficult for her to understand why someone would choose to go to Valinor when it's a place she's never seen. Hearing about how great and wonderful it is can be all well and good, but... Galadriel suggests there is a way for her to see Valinor and judge for herself what the greatest days of the Noldor looked like.
(2) Galadriel shows Arwen her Mirror, and then we see a montage of noontide of Valinor, including the Trees, young Galadriel running around with some kids, Fëanor in his workshop, Oromë, a glimpse of Tol Eressëa (but without people).
(3) Arwen's reaction to what she has seen in the Mirror. 'The Trees were more lovely than I imagined,' but also it was a little bit...all the same? Galadriel recognizes that Arwen's heart is in Middle Earth.

Episode 10: Kinstrife
Frame: (1) Arwen knows that Galadriel wants to return to Valinor someday, but does not know why she left in the first place.
(2) Galadriel-in-the-Frame reacts to the opinions expressed by Galadriel-in-the-Main-Story. The message is a mix between you-don't-know-what-you-have-til-it's-gone and wisdom-means-being-able-to-change-your-mind.

Episode 11: Formenos ???
Episode 12: Feast of Reuniting ???
Episode 13: Darkening of Valinor ??? Obviously, this has to be the one where Arwen wraps up her story (so far). She has to make some sort of clear decision of 'choosing' Middle Earth, and not just temporarily. Probably should end with her and Celeborn (as that is how it started).

As you can see, we try to limit the Frame to 2-3 scenes per episode, of varying length. More frame time in the very beginning is important to introduce our characters and establish our frame story; later in the season, we are just advancing the frame plot one point at a time, so each episode has one small event that is integrated into the rest of the episode to tell the frame story.
 
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I've always that the Frame should be a complete character arc in and of itself. The actual character or plot development should have relevance to the main story, but as a season-long arc, not on the individual episode basis. In my mind, if we try to force each frame to conform to each episode, we run the risk of losing that character development. I'm not saying that we entirely get rid of episodic links to the frame, but I don't think that we should be worried if the links are tenuous at best.
 
I agree that it is *more* important for the frame to have a season long arc and story than it is for there to be a link between the Frame and Main Story in each episode. But I think I would want to keep at least a tenuous link in most cases. By the time we get to the finale, though, it's just 'the wrap-up of both stories', not actually a strong tie-in. Much more important that we tell each story 'right' then that we get the cute segue between them. Visual links of 'oh look, Misty Mountains!' and 'oh look, Pelóri!' might have to be enough.
 
One area that will provide definite linkage will be that some of the characters in the frame will be the characters in the main story. That's going to be an interesting ball to juggle differentiating the Third Age characters from their Year of the Trees characters without unnecessarily confusing the audience.
 
Costuming and sets will go a long way for that - as long as we make sure that styles from 3A and 1A don't overlap.
 
I think the audience will be able to figure out that scenes are Frame scenes if Arwen is in them. Even if we start a Frame scene without her in it for some reason, I have to imagine she'll show up at some point, as it is her story.
 
Looking at the outline, I find that my thoughts presented above can be implemented rather easily. The change isn't big at all and sometimes the thoughts can be easily added to the existing outline. Suggestions in bold. (The outline is just copied from MithLuin's post above)

Episode 1: The Awakening of the Elves
Flashback of Celebrían being attacked by orcs. We meet Arwen and Celeborn. They discuss how the Shadow has always been there. Arwen hates and fears the orcs and misses her mother.

Episode 2: The Ambassadors in Valinor

Frame: (1) Arwen is preparing/dressing, with her confidant [?name]. It is on the eve of an Elvish festival celebrating starlight and she shares her anticipation and excitement for the festival to come, happy to share one last one together with [friend]. During a formal ceremony, Galadriel gives Arwen a starry cloak. Arwen gives Galadriel a tapestry she made showing Varda making the stars. A courtier remarks on the strangeness of the imagery. Galadriel and Arwen share an informal moment, where Galadriel reminds Arwen that Varda is not well-known in Lothlorien. Arwen understands that, and mentions that she doesn't know the Valar any better than the elves of Lothlorien, even if she is considered a High Elf herself. She asks Galadriel what Varda is like?
(2) Galadriel and Arwen discuss Varda's character, and why she is (essentially) the patroness of the elves. Arwen is clearly interested in Valinor. She is drawn to it and longs for her mother.

Episode 3: The Great Debate

Frame: (1) Arwen speaks with her friend, and it is revealed that she has made a decision that has upset Arwen. Arwen tries to talk her out of it, but is unsuccessful.
(2) Arwen is upset that her friend is leaving, but not only that, they are spending their last days together fighting. She talks to Celeborn, who reminds her that she is not responsible for her friend’s choices, and says something about how difficult it is when those we love choose a different path.
(3) Arwen speaks with her friend? Arwen doesn't want her friend to leave. This feeling makes her begin to reevaluate her position on the issue of staying or leaving ME. The departure of Celebrian and the imminent departure of her friend in combination changes her feelings and she begins to question her earlier thoughts on this, making her uncertain. She also begins to question her mother's choice.

Episode 4: The Great Journey

Frame: (1) Arwen's brothers Elladan and Elrohir arrive in Lothlorien.
(2) Arwen and her brothers discuss their family while looking at the Misty Mountains. Arwen expresses regret that their mother cannot be there with them.
(3) Flashback to the rescue of Celebrían from the den of the orcs at the hands of her brothers. Arwen realizes that you can't save everyone. Arwen has begun to question her earlier view, and talking to her brothers makes her realise that you just can't give in to fear but can fight, and even if the fight sometimes involves losing people you love, you should keep fighting.

Episode 5: The Forsaken (Círdan and Olwë)

Frame: (1) Arwen’s friend is preparing leave Middle Earth, taking advantage of the peacetime created by the Battle of Five Armies to journey to the Sea.
(2) Arwen’s friend says her final farewell. She expresses the hope that they will see one another in Valinor someday. Arwen does not respond in kind, but realizes this is a choice she will have to make for herself someday. Galadriel and Celeborn are present at this leave-taking, as silent reminders of that choice.
Arwen is saddened by her friend's departure. She thinks her friend leaves too soon. Thinking of how the Teleri were left behind and how Círdan was given a purpose makes her wonder if she has a purpose to fulfill in ME. She's not clear what this would be though and she feels uncertain about it.
Episode 6: Elvenhome
Frame: (1) Arwen and her brothers discuss her friend’s departure, and that leads to a conversation about their mother’s departure as well.
(2) Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen memorialize their mother. Arwen has come to accept that going into the West was the right thing for her mother to do, and that there was no healing for Celebrían here in Middle Earth. Arwen understands that besides the fact that Celebrian needed healing, she and Arwen are different people with different destinies. Her road to the West will look different.

We have also inserted some frame story into (some) of the script outlines that we've been working on, so I'll include that below (with the understanding that these are more 'tentative' than what was given above).

Episode 7: Spirit of Fire ???
Episode 8: Trial of Melkor ???

Episode 9: Silmarils
Frame: (1) Arwen explains to Galadriel that it's difficult for her to understand why someone would choose to go to Valinor when it's a place she's never seen. Hearing about how great and wonderful it is can be all well and good, but... Galadriel suggests there is a way for her to see Valinor and judge for herself what the greatest days of the Noldor looked like. As written but these are thoughs that have come to her recently. She has realised that her picture of the West is rather immature and sketchy, like out of a tale. (After this, I think we're on the same track)
(2) Galadriel shows Arwen her Mirror, and then we see a montage of noontide of Valinor, including the Trees, young Galadriel running around with some kids, Fëanor in his workshop, Oromë, a glimpse of Tol Eressëa (but without people).
(3) Arwen's reaction to what she has seen in the Mirror. 'The Trees were more lovely than I imagined,' but also it was a little bit...all the same? Galadriel recognizes that Arwen's heart is in Middle Earth.
Episode 10: Kinstrife
Frame: (1) Arwen knows that Galadriel wants to return to Valinor someday, but does not know why she left in the first place.
(2) Galadriel-in-the-Frame reacts to the opinions expressed by Galadriel-in-the-Main-Story. The message is a mix between you-don't-know-what-you-have-til-it's-gone and wisdom-means-being-able-to-change-your-mind.
Episode 11: Formenos ???
Episode 12: Feast of Reuniting ???
Episode 13: Darkening of Valinor ??? Obviously, this has to be the one where Arwen wraps up her story (so far). She has to make some sort of clear decision of 'choosing' Middle Earth, and not just temporarily. Probably should end with her and Celeborn (as that is how it started).
 
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