Frame Narrative

I have to say, I like this better. It allows us to have more in each episode and not address the same question thirteen times.

Although, it's almost like this should have been two separate seasons.... ;)
 
We could go for the old 'fell down, hit her head, lost her memory and lived among the downtrodden before regaining her memory' trope.

If we had more time, it might be interesting to do a Celebrian-lite for Arwen where she is attacked by orcs, but is rescued by a group of elves and while she is waiting to be returned to her people, she gains an understanding of what the 'common folk' are like. But that would be hard to do in 5-8 minutes.
 
We can probably use that idea somehow, though.

Say that Arwen (for some reason) is out of Lothlorien with a party of elves who are having a picnic or something. The woodsmen happen by in an alarmed, 'You shouldn't be here, it's dangerous, there are monsters out there!' warning. Elladan and Elrohir go off hunting monsters, while the woodsmen take the other elves back to their village for safety.

While there, Arwen does something helpful like heal the sick, but this way it's a mutually beneficial saving-each-other relationship, not 'rich young white girl helps the poor starving natives' which is....problematic.
 
I have to say, I like this better. It allows us to have more in each episode and not address the same question thirteen times.

Although, it's almost like this should have been two separate seasons.... ;)

Yeah, heaven forbid we have any nuance or detailed exploration of what an enormous, history-and-culture spanning question "where do the elves belong" might actually mean...

That said, the underlying point of "why are we leaving the frame to be dealt with as an afterthought this season" is one I tend to agree with, Nick. But then I can hardly begrudge Professor Olsen the desire to get paid for playing video games....
 
We can probably use that idea somehow, though.

Say that Arwen (for some reason) is out of Lothlorien with a party of elves who are having a picnic or something. The woodsmen happen by in an alarmed, 'You shouldn't be here, it's dangerous, there are monsters out there!' warning. Elladan and Elrohir go off hunting monsters, while the woodsmen take the other elves back to their village for safety.

While there, Arwen does something helpful like heal the sick, but this way it's a mutually beneficial saving-each-other relationship, not 'rich young white girl helps the poor starving natives' which is....problematic.

I missed the session on Friday, why do we want this, exactly? What are we trying to do with it? Like, I'm not precisely sure what "common" elves look like in comparison to the lords and ladies, but I don't know that we should be given to understand that there are "elf peasants" in the same way that there are huge <ahem> tracts of land providing produce for the White City.
 
There you go, bringing class into it again...

Listen: Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some... farcical
aquatic ceremony!

Sorry, I had to...
 
I was under the impression that it was common Men, not common Elves, we would have Arwen hanging out with in this incident. That makes for a much more interesting contrast, and we definitely need to have her at some point either now or in S5 hanging out with Men in a positive way (since she's going to eventually have to choose their lot).
 
Sorry I was not clear - the woodsmen are Men.

This idea was discussed in the session, and relates back to Phillip's idea from a long time ago about squeezing a Gollum Easter Egg into this Frame.
 
That certainly seems better.... although I wonder if we'll have enough time to do that scene any justice, it seems like the sort of thing that would need to breath a bit.
 
Yeah, heaven forbid we have any nuance or detailed exploration of what an enormous, history-and-culture spanning question "where do the elves belong" might actually mean...

The idea was actually that Arwen should answer that question for herself (maybe about halfway through), and then the second half would give us the implications of her working out what that means for her life. The idea is that we're still exploring the same question, but making Arwen less indecisive and allowing the audience to see what some of the consequences of her choice might be.
 
I mean, you're kind of murdering the tension by putting her decision at the mid-point. There's no reason why she can't be making progress towards making up her mind through experience without saying with finality what she feels is best. That was part of my whole point when we were waltzing through the first 7 episodes, Arwen needs to go do a couple of things, talk to a couple of people, and consider. Even if she does make some sort of a decision, she needs to see how that decision actually impacts her life and the lives of others before she can be certain that perspective of world-view is what she believes it to be when she makes the decision.

For an immediate example from my personal life, I recently have been spending more time with my ex-girlfriend, and as much as I have enjoy hanging out, it has really underscored all of the reasons we broke up and how right a decision that really was for us. Hard do get that sort of reassurance without actually mixing things up with that person and seeing what it's like interacting with them with this new perspective. If we provide her some space for wiggle room, maybe a few experiences that support her decision, and some that don't, but that she is able to rationalize and make fit with her new world view, I think we can make the whole exercise a little less academic without blowing her development for the rest of the season.
 
Well, maybe the decision that Arwen makes mid-season is to journey to Valinor. And then the subsequent events make her realize that she has a role to play on Middle-Earth still. So, she remains.

It still leaves open that she may, at some point in the future, go to Valinor. That way, when she makes the decision to remain in Middle-Earth with Aragorn, it really becomes a momentous decision.
 
Well, I will let you listen to the Session and then make up your mind on whether or not this is doable. I don't really see any reason why it has to be different from what you've said - just because she's made a decision and is pretty sure it's the right one for her, doesn't mean she's not still interested in verification and making sure she's considered that carefully.

For instance, as currently outlined, the Mirror episode is in the latter half of the season, and that is her looking at Valinor with her own eyes.
 
The idea was to have Arwen begin the season presuming she will eventuelly go to Valinor. Her friend leaving for the West makes her question this. She ends up feeling she has a purpose staying in Middle-earth, but she does not yet know what that is (and is fine with not yet knowing her exact purpose). She begins to explore what her purpose could be, and part of this exploration is visiting a woodsmen settlement and as she finds some people there are hurt, she helps them using her healing skills. The final part of the season is focused on fall and loss.
 
oooookay, that makes sense. I like that.

I don't really stay as current with the Frame as with the main story. Although I like the concept of the Frame Narrative and recognize its necessity in telling the tale and relating it back to an audience that wants 'familiar' characters, I just get afraid that at times, the tail wags the dog.
 
Part of the frame will feature her twin brothers. Dr O wanted them to be really focused on killing orcs, and Elladan is supposed to be this guy who runs the risk of falling, by becoming increasingly hard, cold and aggressive.
 
Here are the Outlines we are working on for Friday's session. I still have no frame for Episode 13. If someone wants to peruse what we have for episodes 9-12, and then suggest how to wrap up the story in the Frame Narrative, please, be my guest!

https://forums.signumuniversity.org...ion-schedule-and-updates.351/page-6#post-9565

I'd like to pass along what we have to the Execs sometime on Thursday, so if anyone intends to edit/revise, let me know and I'll hold off a bit.
 
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I'd like to see Arwen out on her own, having left Lothlorien, riding under the darkening sky as the first stars appear. Where's she heading? We don't know. It is silent, but for the wind in the trees, and a nightingale.
 
That's a lovely image!

Really, I think 13 can be (and probably should be) frame-light; Arwen's story isn't done, and there's so much to do in the episode.




... and.... I don't want to come up with a full story idea for it! :p
 
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