History of warfare prior to Kinslaying?

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toddhoffious

New Member
A potentially very stupid question occurred to me listening to the Kinslaying silmfilm episode. The elves seem to have an advanced martial arts given they hadn't to that point fought each other. Who were they fighting before?
 
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Good question! Part of the answer is: they haven't fought anyone before.
So you wonder, how did they learn how to fight? I don't know, but let's speculate. First of all, we really don't know that they are very advanced. We could theoretically see rather basic attack skills in the Kinslaying. Second, we can assume that they have had some kind of training in wrestling or unarmed combat, at least in a playful way, Tulkas could have trained them. Also, they would have some hunting skills that they can apply in fighting. And after they have developed swords, they will probably have practiced using them. So, even if they haven't been in actual combat, they know something about it.
 
Thanks, I wasn't sure if they had a history of warfare. Since they don't seem to be vegetarians, having bows for hunting make sense. Swords are the pinnacle of manufacturing technology and differ considerably based on the type of battle tactics. There's really no reason they should have swords that I can think of.
 
As far as having swords, that's part of the S2 plot. Melkor's influence on the Noldor during his probation.

As far as knowing how to use them, Elves are awesome. Especially the Calaquendi. That's about all we have.
 
To me that doesn't really make sense. You don't make and carry swords without a credible persistent threat. But as you said, that's all we have.
 
I think some people could develop a fascination for long knives used in hunting which could turn into a desire to make them longer and more threatening. It could be to show off initially but be thought of as real weapons after Fëanor draws his sword on Fingolfin.
 
I understand what you are saying, but swords have only one purpose: war. Where they get that motivation from isn't clear. I don't think elves would use them in courtship displays or dominance games.
 
I believe our progression (it's been a while...) was a public peacock-like display of increasingly more beautiful/ornate shields coupled with secretive paranoid crafting of swords or other weapons. Nobodybhas a sword in public until Feanor confronts Fingolfin, but wveryone secretly has one.
 
If everyone secretly has one that seems like there must have been some sort of original sin event. What caused the separation of elf from elf?
 
Melkor on his probationnperiod played a big role, but the permanent sequestration of Elves away from Missle Earth itself was an error with unintended consequences.
 
To be fair, I own a bunch of swords, and I don't have any credible threats in my life. I just enjoy sharp pointy things, and if I'm going to carry a weapon, it's going to be a blade.

But I agree that swords have *one* use, and that is killing someone else. There is no practical use for them in non-militant pursuits. Knives, bows, axes - these all have other uses in peacetime. [Even guns] Not so the sword.

We see the Noldor using swords first in a sporting environment - holding martial arts competitions like the ones Tulkas did, but with blades now. We see Fëanor training his people in military exercises as Formenos. Prior to Fëanor's banishment, no one carried a sword openly.

By the time we get to the Kinslaying, the Noldor are well-armed and prepared for war (with Morgoth). The Teleri have fishing spears and knives and bows and arrows and no intention of killing anyone (though they are certainly willing to push them in the water, and a heavily armed Noldo could drown that way).
 
toddhoffious said:
I understand what you are saying, but swords have only one purpose: war. Where they get that motivation from isn't clear. I don't think elves would use them in courtship displays or dominance games.
Click to expand...
Perhaps, but that is how Tolkien wrote it. We tried* to give some explanation for it: that Melkor is inflaming their desire to return to Middle Earth, and they know that could be dangerous, so being prepared to defend yourself makes sense, but at the same time they're growing more proud and suspicious of the Valar and even those around them, again from Melkor's influence. We spent a lot of time talking about how horrific and weird and anathema Feanor's actions are in drawing his sword on his brother, and how to convey that to the audience.

But I think a key here is that they are preparing for war, or at least possible violence. First with vague "monsters" in Middle Earth, and then Feanor in his banishment is preparing for... something... and then they all declare war on Morgoth, and won't let anyone stand in their way.

*going by Podcast sessions here, I can't remember if the Script discussions removed any or all of this.
 
I think the total pointlessness and insane aggression demonstrated by the Noldor in their fall is supposed to be horrible and absurd; I think that's Tolkien's point.
 
Interesting discussion!

Well i believe technically the wlves could have developed some weapons and fighting techniques at cuivienen and on the great wandering... But not against other elves or humanoids, they would have had to defend themselves from wuld animals, monsters of morgoth and maybe occasional evil spirits or demons. So they would have developed some sort id weapons and maybe even armor out if tools and hunting equipment. But i guess at that stage rhe elves were more or less small wandering stone age tribes - they would not have had metal yet.

But ince they arrive at valinor they do use weapons and armor developed out of their older equipment - but this time they know steel and they only use their weapons for sports, sparring and maybe ritualised to remember older hardships of the wandering days. And of course they still hunt! So it is not that the noldor once they set foot on middle earth would have had absolutely no practice in fighting or military organisation... They just have never before fought other elves or elf- like humanoids who alao use weapons and armor.
 
True (Well, swords are even better at killing unarmed, unarmored folks...) Which is why the invention of swords in a peaceful paradise is so messed up, and a very bad sign.
 
Did the elves invent swords? I believe the valar & maiar used them during their wAr mit melkor... Maybe the noldor saw andfound such antique swords?
 
The Noldor certainly develop swords under Melkor's tutelage, both in Tolkien's story and in ours. It's for...preventive measures. At first.
 
Don't quality swords take a bit of skill to make? Could Melkor have convinced them to make swords as demonstration of their craft, such that eventually any smith among the Noldor would produce a blade as proof he had attained a certain level of craftsmanship?

Then they could rationalize it to themselves as, "We're not arming for war; we're honing our craft."
 
We did not discuss that as a particular excuse during Season 2. But certainly that sounds like a very Noldor viewpoint. There is some secrecy at first, but the veneer of innocence fits.

We do have a lengthy thread on swords in the props forum where we discuss the history - real life and in this story.
 
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