On the passing on of Narsil

For all/most of the above, are we talking princes plus large retinues, princes plus a handful of retainers/advisers/bodyguards, or solo princes? I'm thinking as close to solo as we can get, maybe parties of 1-5 people per prince.
 
Princes + handful of retinue was what I was picturing. We're not moving armies around for this plotline, but I doubt they'd actually travel alone, either.

I do think it would be good to give Aredhel a journey this season before she finds herself cooped up in Gondolin. Her restlessness in Nevrast - 'time to be out and about!' - should give everyone some foreboding about her ability to live forever in the Hidden Valley. Plus, the relatively easy journey through Dorthonion (or the plains to the north) will be in sharp contrast with her later solo journey through Nan Dungortheb.
 
MithLuin said:
I like the idea of the sword passing to 'nobodies' for awhile. It fits how history actually works (not every wielder is going to be someone who uses it for something really famous, and there will be times where it's just displayed on a mantle). I am by no means overly attached to this exact progression, but I can see it as a plausible option, at least.
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I also like it with nobodies for awhile. In fact, I think that was one of the first thoughts I had about it. I like this progression, though I am a tad dubious about using it in a battle with a Balrog. I worry if it makes too big a deal of the sword early on. I also worry about its survival after the battle, considering it did not survive the battle with Sauron in the third age (though it was a lot older then). But since Aegnor's gotta die fighting a balrog, how exactly is the sword lost but found intact? So... I'm a little iffy. However, I do love the idea of it changing hands at the Battle of Sudden Flame. I think that makes the name really interesting, the sudden flash of this new Red Flame to fight Morgoth's Sudden Flame.
 
MithLuin said:
Princes + handful of retinue was what I was picturing. We're not moving armies around for this plotline, but I doubt they'd actually travel alone, either.

I do think it would be good to give Aredhel a journey this season before she finds herself cooped up in Gondolin. Her restlessness in Nevrast - 'time to be out and about!' - should give everyone some foreboding about her ability to live forever in the Hidden Valley. Plus, the relatively easy journey through Dorthonion (or the plains to the north) will be in sharp contrast with her later solo journey through Nan Dungortheb.
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Which also makes her decision to live in Gondolin a little suspect.
 
MithLuin said:
A terrible premature proposed 'complete history of Narsil' ;)

  • Telchar of Nogrod moves to Belegost after her role as armorer of Doriath emerges, since Belegost (not Nogrod) has that alliance.
  • While in Belegost after the rising of the Sun, Telchar makes Narsil, a beautiful sword that reflects the light of the Sun and the Moon. The sword says right on it, "I am Narsil, forged by Telchar, long may I fight the powers of darkness" or something to that effect.
  • While visiting the Dwarves/Fëanoreans, Aegnor is gifted Narsil by Telchar herself (see Mike's explanation above).
  • Aegnor uses Narsil in his fatal fight with a balrog during the Battle of Sudden Flame. It is (temporarily) lost at the site where the balrog fell to its doom.
  • While fleeing Dorthonion in the aftermath of the Dagor Bragollach, Emeldir (mother of Beren) recovers the sword and takes it with her to Brethil, using it to protect her people on their hazardous journey.
  • When Gondolin is sacked, the remainder of Bëor's folk who are in the Forest of Brethil retreat with the Gondolin refugees to the Mouths of Sirion. Narsil goes with them.
  • The Wars of Beleriand turn all of the Elves and Edain into orphan refugees stranded on the Isle of Balar. Narsil is there, in the keeping of the Edain.
  • One of these nameless Edain takes the sword to Numenor at the dawn of the Second Age, where it eventually finds its way to the Lords of Adunië via marriage. It is praised as an ancient sword, but no one recalls who used to wield it.
  • Elendil and his sons flee Numenor during its destruction; Narsil comes with them on the ships.
  • When Elendil and Gil-galad fight Sauron, Narsil is broken. Isildur uses it to cut the Ring from Sauron's finger.
  • The broken sword Narsil becomes an heirloom of the Dunedain of the North. It is passed down until it reaches Aragorn Son of Arathorn. He carries the broken sword with him when he meets the hobbits in Bree, though he likely had other swords he used in his earlier adventures.
  • After the Council of Elrond, Narsil is reforged into Andúril and Aragorn takes it to the War of the Ring. Presumably, he kills a lot of orcs with it.
I like the idea of the sword passing to 'nobodies' for awhile. It fits how history actually works (not every wielder is going to be someone who uses it for something really famous, and there will be times where it's just displayed on a mantle). I am by no means overly attached to this exact progression, but I can see it as a plausible option, at least.
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My problem with Aegnor being the wielder is he has no real connection with the line of Elros or even dwarves.

Do we know of Fingon's sword?
I would prefer the sword to have been Fingon's rather than Aegnor. After Gothmog kills Fingon, it can be recovered and given to Maedhros, who in grief at the death of his friend holds onto the sword, but feels his hands are unworthy to wield it after all he has done. He could then present it to Elros when they look after the twins.

An alternative is that the sword belongs to Aegnor, who is famous for using a sword, whilst Angrod is famous for using a spear. The two brothers might fight together often, one dominant with the spear the other with the sword. It could be a famous sight. At the death of Aenor, the sword passes down to Orodreth, who passes it to Gil-galad. At some point during the 2nd Age Gil-galad can then either give it to Elendil personally or to a previous Lord of Andunie.
 
cellardur said:
My problem with Aegnor being the wielder is he has no real connection with the line of Elros or even dwarves.

Do we know of Fingon's sword?
I would prefer the sword to have been Fingon's rather than Aegnor. After Gothmog kills Fingon, it can be recovered and given to Maedhros, who in grief at the death of his friend holds onto the sword, but feels his hands are unworthy to wield it after all he has done. He could then present it to Elros when they look after the twins.

An alternative is that the sword belongs to Aegnor, who is famous for using a sword, whilst Angrod is famous for using a spear. The two brothers might fight together often, one dominant with the spear the other with the sword. It could be a famous sight. At the death of Aenor, the sword passes down to Orodreth, who passes it to Gil-galad. At some point during the 2nd Age Gil-galad can then either give it to Elendil personally or to a previous Lord of Andunie.
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We are suggesting a connection with the Dwarves and Aegnor by having Maedhros commission Narsil for Aegnor.
 
The Hosts seemed to like the idea of Narsil being forged for Aegnor well enough, but they want it to pass to Men almost immediately - either via Emeldir or Andreth.

It seemed important to Corey Olsen that there be a *reason* Narsil be forged. He wanted someone to specifically request it for an elf as a gift. His initial thought was that Norn would commission it for Mablung as a farewell gift when he leaves Doriath.

He accepted that Maedhros could have it made for Aegnor after Aegnor's sword was broken (presumably in the Dagor Aglareb). It does seem more likely that Maedhros would be giving Fingon random gifts (like the Dragon-helm), I realize*.

Personally, I think that giving Narsil to Aegnor works because of the names. Aegnor's name means 'Fell Fire.' Narsil's name means 'Red and White Flame.' So, it sorta seems fitting - that sword goes with that name.

I think that we should avoid having Narsil get to Numenor via Elros. Elros gets Aranruth. Any other Numenorean could marry into either Elros' line or the Lords of Andunië to get the sword to Amandil. With the entire Second Age open to gift-giving...we really just have to get the sword to the Isle of Balar at the end of the First Age.



* Cousin friendships:
Maedhros is best friends with Fingon
Fingon is friends with Angrod and Aegnor
Maedhros and Maglor are friends with Finrod
Finrod is friends with Turgon
Aredhel is friends with Celegorm and Curufin
Galadriel and Aredhel are friends (in our story)
 
MithLuin said:
The Hosts seemed to like the idea of Narsil being forged for Aegnor well enough, but they want it to pass to Men almost immediately - either via Emeldir or Andreth.

It seemed important to Corey Olsen that there be a *reason* Narsil be forged. He wanted someone to specifically request it for an elf as a gift. His initial thought was that Norn would commission it for Mablung as a farewell gift when he leaves Doriath.

He accepted that Maedhros could have it made for Aegnor after Aegnor's sword was broken (presumably in the Dagor Aglareb). It does seem more likely that Maedhros would be giving Fingon random gifts (like the Dragon-helm), I realize*.

Personally, I think that giving Narsil to Aegnor works because of the names. Aegnor's name means 'Fell Fire.' Narsil's name means 'Red and White Flame.' So, it sorta seems fitting - that sword goes with that name.

I think that we should avoid having Narsil get to Numenor via Elros. Elros gets Aranruth. Any other Numenorean could marry into either Elros' line or the Lords of Andunië to get the sword to Amandil. With the entire Second Age open to gift-giving...we really just have to get the sword to the Isle of Balar at the end of the First Age.



* Cousin friendships:
Maedhros is best friends with Fingon
Fingon is friends with Angrod and Aegnor
Maedhros and Maglor are friends with Finrod
Finrod is friends with Turgon
Aredhel is friends with Celegorm and Curufin
Galadriel and Aredhel are friends (in our story)
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I have my doubts about passing it to Andreth or Emeldir. Andreth will die in Dorthonion, and where should it go from there? She has no one to pass it to. Emeldir might bring it to Dor-Lomin, but where should it go from there? The Easterlings would no doubt take it when they overrun Dor-Lomin after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and try to destroy it. So it cannot stay there.
 
Not all of Bëor's people end up in Dor-lomin; some go to Brethil. So, if we are worried about having the Easterlings sack Dor-lomin and take Narsil, we can easily send Narsil to Brethil instead. Andreth does not have any descendants, it's true, but she does have 5 nieces and nephews from her brother Bregor. Beren, Rian, and Morwen are their most famous descendants, but Brandir the Lame is in that lineage as well. There is no story at all about Andreth's sister Beril; we could send the sword via her lineage as well if we wanted to.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
We are suggesting a connection with the Dwarves and Aegnor by having Maedhros commission Narsil for Aegnor.
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Why? We have several named characters with connections to dwarves, which will play a part in later seasons, which need developing. One important character we have yet to mention is Galadriel, who is another friendly Noldor with the dwarves. It's the Sons of Feanor, who are close with dwarves.
MithLuin said:
The Hosts seemed to like the idea of Narsil being forged for Aegnor well enough, but they want it to pass to Men almost immediately - either via Emeldir or Andreth.

It seemed important to Corey Olsen that there be a *reason* Narsil be forged. He wanted someone to specifically request it for an elf as a gift. His initial thought was that Norn would commission it for Mablung as a farewell gift when he leaves Doriath.

He accepted that Maedhros could have it made for Aegnor after Aegnor's sword was broken (presumably in the Dagor Aglareb). It does seem more likely that Maedhros would be giving Fingon random gifts (like the Dragon-helm), I realize*.

Personally, I think that giving Narsil to Aegnor works because of the names. Aegnor's name means 'Fell Fire.' Narsil's name means 'Red and White Flame.' So, it sorta seems fitting - that sword goes with that name.

I think that we should avoid having Narsil get to Numenor via Elros. Elros gets Aranruth. Any other Numenorean could marry into either Elros' line or the Lords of Andunië to get the sword to Amandil. With the entire Second Age open to gift-giving...we really just have to get the sword to the Isle of Balar at the end of the First Age.



* Cousin friendships:
Maedhros is best friends with Fingon
Fingon is friends with Angrod and Aegnor
Maedhros and Maglor are friends with Finrod
Finrod is friends with Turgon
Aredhel is friends with Celegorm and Curufin
Galadriel and Aredhel are friends (in our story)
Click to expand...
Narsil is the sword of the High King of Gondor and Arnor. It's one of the symbols of Aragorn's right to rule the Edain. I waited until I thought, I was up to date, but it seems a lot has been discussed in 4.07, that I am not aware of.

The Elessar, the ring of Barahir and the sword of Elendil are all linked to Aragorn's right to lead the Edain. The ring of Barahir proves he is the heir of Beor, the Elessar was the jewel (if we take one tradition) of Earendil.

This is not just a regular sword, but it will be a symbol of Kingship over ALL the Edain. Only Kings of both Arnor and Gondor will ever wield this sword.

I would prefer the sword to be given to Elendil by Gil-galad, since the suggestion is all the other heirlooms of House of Elros was lost, but it needs to have some significance to the Edain.

I would prefer Maedhros gifting it to Fingon and Fingon to the House of Hador.

Yes the names have some similarity, but Aegnor is just a very vague figure with no connection to the ancestors of Elendil.

An additional point is Narsil is very much the sword of Elendil. Perhaps it would be better if nobody famous wields it in the 1st Age. Glamdring is still very much Turgon's sword and even the sword of the Line of Elros, is Thingol's sword. A possible lineage can be the sword is gifted by Maedhros to Fingon, who in return is preparing to gift in to Turin when he comes of age. The sword can end up with Turin in Nargothrond, but he never uses it as he has his own. This would explain why Gil-galad gets hold of it and can pass it to Elendil.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of the sword be made for great warrior, ie Fingon, who then plan to pass it on to another great warrior (Turin), but for some reason or the other it is never wielded until Elendil gets hold of it.
 
I agree that Narsil only becomes famous when Elendil gets it, which is one reason *not* to have it be given to the King of Numenor at any point.

Narsil's backstory is not told, which suggests that it was forgotten. Men might know that it has been in their family for years, but they wouldn't necessarily know the origin story. So, giving it to an elf who dies relatively early in the wars of Beleriand allows Narsil to pass into obscurity.

True, Aragorn knows the name of the sword and that it was made by Telchar, so we have to assume that something was known of its origins before it made it to Elendil. But...perhaps that is written right on it. 'Narsil by Telchar' would be a name without a story.

Of course Narsil is an heirloom of the Dunedain in Middle-earth; it was Elendil's sword! It's from Numenor. It was made in the First Age, so it could have more significance than that if we wanted it to, but...not necessarily an heirloom that points to Elros the way the Ring of Barahir does.

It is certainly true that there is more of a connection between the dwarves and the Fëanoreans (particularly Curufin and Caranthir). But there was a rather strong desire to keep Narsil *out* of the hands of the Sons of Fëanor (at least not have it be used in any Kinslayings), so one of the Fëanoreans would have to commission it as a gift for someone else rather than have it made for themselves. None of the Fëanorean blades are named in the story. That...might be deliberate, considering how willing Tolkien was to name his characters' weapons! Ange1e4e5 did suggest having Narsil and Angrist being a 'matched set' belonging to Curufin, but...that poses some potential problems. It could get to Men via Beren stealing it from him, certainly...if we're willing to let Narsil be Beren's sword.

If we give Narsil to Aegnor, he's going to use it to fight a balrog. So, that's pretty significant! But in the many generations of Men between the Battle of Sudden Flame and Elendil setting foot in Middle-earth after the destruction of Numenor...that could be forgotten.
 
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MithLuin said:
I agree that Narsil only becomes famous when Elendil gets it, which is one reason *not* to have it be given to the King of Numenor at any point.

Narsil's backstory is not told, which suggests that it was forgotten. Men might know that it has been in their family for years, but they wouldn't necessarily know the origin story. So, giving it to an elf who dies relatively early in the wars of Beleriand allows Narsil to pass into obscurity.

True, Aragorn knows the name of the sword and that it was made by Telchar, so we have to assume that something was known of its origins before it made it to Elendil. But...perhaps that is written right on it. 'Narsil by Telchar' would be a name without a story.

Of course Narsil is an heirloom of the Dunedain in Middle-earth; it was Elendil's sword! It's from Numenor. It was made in the First Age, so it could have more significance than that if we wanted it to, but...not necessarily an heirloom that points to Elros the way the Ring of Barahir does.

If we give Narsil to Aegnor, he's going to use it to fight a balrog. So, that's pretty significant! But in the many generations of Men between the Battle of Sudden Flame and Elendil setting foot in Middle-earth after the destruction of Numenor...that could be forgotten.
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Plus in the Published Silmarillion, Aegnor’s a footnote by comparison.

I think what we want is not to have Narsil to just be a fancy wall decoration.
 
I am perfectly content to let Narsil be a fancy wall decoration in Numenor. I want it to be a 'real' sword in the First Age, and then when Elendil has it, but in between? Sure, why not let it fall into obscurity?
 
MithLuin said:
I am perfectly content to let Narsil be a fancy wall decoration in Numenor. I want it to be a 'real' sword in the First Age, and then when Elendil has it, but in between? Sure, why not let it fall into obscurity?
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I can agree to that.
 
I like the story we came up with that has it very quickly passing into the hands of Men, ignorant of its full backstory. It could then, without any narrative backflips, pass through to the Beleriand survivors who populate Numenor, and become an heirloom of the faithful Lords of Andunie.

(I don't like any story that has Narsil as some hero's second best sword.)
 
Say...

How does Elendil end up with the Ring of Barahir anyway? Is it is some part of the story I've forgotten?
 
Lords of Andunië are descended from Silmarien, of Elros' line (and as eldest child [though a daughter], the 'true' heir even though her younger brother became king).

Or did you mean how did the Ring of Barahir get to Numenor?
 
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