On the passing on of Narsil

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Lords of Andunië are descended from Silmarien, of Elros' line (and as eldest child [though a daughter], the 'true' heir even though her younger brother became king).

Or did you mean how did the Ring of Barahir get to Numenor?
No, I mean, why didn't Silmarien's brother get the ring with his scepter (or whatever it is that the kings got to have)? Was it explicit in the story somewhere, of is it something we assume happened by connecting the dots?
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
I promise to re-read Unfinished Tales before we get to the Second Age in Silm Film, but it's easily been over a decade since I've read it. I do *not* know the Numenor stuff off the top of my head.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
No, I mean, why didn't Silmarien's brother get the ring with his scepter (or whatever it is that the kings got to have)? Was it explicit in the story somewhere, of is it something we assume happened by connecting the dots?
Maybe Thingol’s got a ring nobody knows about, and this is the heirloom Silmarien’s brother decides to keep as King? Or the ring came to Amandil?
 

cellardur

Active Member
No, I mean, why didn't Silmarien's brother get the ring with his scepter (or whatever it is that the kings got to have)? Was it explicit in the story somewhere, of is it something we assume happened by connecting the dots?
Well Silmarien is the oldest child of the king and was marrying into the second greatest family in Numenor. It was a fitting gift for such an occasion and maybe she was a particular favourite.
 

cellardur

Active Member
I agree that Narsil only becomes famous when Elendil gets it, which is one reason *not* to have it be given to the King of Numenor at any point.

Narsil's backstory is not told, which suggests that it was forgotten. Men might know that it has been in their family for years, but they wouldn't necessarily know the origin story. So, giving it to an elf who dies relatively early in the wars of Beleriand allows Narsil to pass into obscurity.

True, Aragorn knows the name of the sword and that it was made by Telchar, so we have to assume that something was known of its origins before it made it to Elendil. But...perhaps that is written right on it. 'Narsil by Telchar' would be a name without a story.

Of course Narsil is an heirloom of the Dunedain in Middle-earth; it was Elendil's sword! It's from Numenor. It was made in the First Age, so it could have more significance than that if we wanted it to, but...not necessarily an heirloom that points to Elros the way the Ring of Barahir does.

It is certainly true that there is more of a connection between the dwarves and the Fëanoreans (particularly Curufin and Caranthir). But there was a rather strong desire to keep Narsil *out* of the hands of the Sons of Fëanor (at least not have it be used in any Kinslayings), so one of the Fëanoreans would have to commission it as a gift for someone else rather than have it made for themselves. None of the Fëanorean blades are named in the story. That...might be deliberate, considering how willing Tolkien was to name his characters' weapons! Ange1e4e5 did suggest having Narsil and Angrist being a 'matched set' belonging to Curufin, but...that poses some potential problems. It could get to Men via Beren stealing it from him, certainly...if we're willing to let Narsil be Beren's sword.

If we give Narsil to Aegnor, he's going to use it to fight a balrog. So, that's pretty significant! But in the many generations of Men between the Battle of Sudden Flame and Elendil setting foot in Middle-earth after the destruction of Numenor...that could be forgotten.
The problem is Narsil has been in the hands of the greatest loremaster in Arda. If anyone would know the history of Narsil it would be Elrond. It's also well known to Galadriel, who would recognise her brother's sword.

I agree I don't think the sword should be used in the king slaying and I like the idea of Maedhros requesting the sword, but I now really love the idea of the sword not being used. I wouldn't even mind the idea of Maedhros commissioning it and planning to give it to Fingon as a victory gift. Fingon dying could mean the sword was taken by his son, if we go down that Gil-galad route (which I am against).
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
If you want it to not be used, it could be gifted by Norn to Mablung...who then decides that he doesn't really want to use a sword and would rather fight with an axe. So it sits in Thingol's armory in Menegroth all through the First Age, being removed either by the dwarves when they sack it ('hey, this was *ours*!) or by the Fëanoreans during the 2nd Kinslaying....or be one of the items rescued from the Ruin of Doriath and taken to the Havens.

...or Narsil is just lying in a ditch somewhere after a battle and someone random picks it up.



As for Galadriel recognizing her brother's sword...maybe. She's in Doriath at that point, and he's in Dorthonion. I'm not sure how often they see one another in the 400 years between the Dagor Aglareb and his death. He may well visit her in Doriath, but if so, he's probably not wearing a sword openly while walking around Menegroth or attending her wedding. I'm not saying she wouldn't have heard the news that her brother got a cool sword as a gift...but that doesn't necessarily mean she'd make the connection a few millennia later when the sword resurfaces. And it's not like she'll have a lot of direct contact with the Lords of Andunië in Numenor, so really, just hearing that Elendil's sword broke in the Last Alliance might have led to an after-the-fact connection for her.

But, sure, say Elrond does know more of the history of the sword. He's allowed to! Elrond likely knows a lot of things that aren't recorded in the narrative of Lord of the Rings. Maybe Elrond took special care to instruct the heirs of the Dunedain about the history of each item that they were set to inherit...so, sure, Aragorn could know 100% that Narsil had been wielded by *fill in the blank* during the First Age. That doesn't make it *common* knowledge. And...it's a broken sword. The last person to use it was Elendil, and so it's always going to be 'Elendil's sword' to the Dunedain.
 

cellardur

Active Member
If you want it to not be used, it could be gifted by Norn to Mablung...who then decides that he doesn't really want to use a sword and would rather fight with an axe. So it sits in Thingol's armory in Menegroth all through the First Age, being removed either by the dwarves when they sack it ('hey, this was *ours*!) or by the Fëanoreans during the 2nd Kinslaying....or be one of the items rescued from the Ruin of Doriath and taken to the Havens.

...or Narsil is just lying in a ditch somewhere after a battle and someone random picks it up.
Yes I like this idea.
As for Galadriel recognizing her brother's sword...maybe. She's in Doriath at that point, and he's in Dorthonion. I'm not sure how often they see one another in the 400 years between the Dagor Aglareb and his death. He may well visit her in Doriath, but if so, he's probably not wearing a sword openly while walking around Menegroth or attending her wedding. I'm not saying she wouldn't have heard the news that her brother got a cool sword as a gift...but that doesn't necessarily mean she'd make the connection a few millennia later when the sword resurfaces. And it's not like she'll have a lot of direct contact with the Lords of Andunië in Numenor, so really, just hearing that Elendil's sword broke in the Last Alliance might have led to an after-the-fact connection for her.
Finarfin's children do seem to visit Doriath on a fairly regular basis. True it may not have come up in conversation, but if it was a special gift then more than likely it would have. Galadriel was also probably the regent left in charge during the Last Alliace. Meaning she probably met Elendil well. Depending on what history we give Galadriel, she almost certainly has to be in Lindon during the Elvish wars with Sauron. Once again this means it is highly likely she met some of the Lords of Andunie. That apart, Galadriel must have taken Anduril, when she had the special sheath made for it.
But, sure, say Elrond does know more of the history of the sword. He's allowed to! Elrond likely knows a lot of things that aren't recorded in the narrative of Lord of the Rings. Maybe Elrond took special care to instruct the heirs of the Dunedain about the history of each item that they were set to inherit...so, sure, Aragorn could know 100% that Narsil had been wielded by *fill in the blank* during the First Age. That doesn't make it *common* knowledge. And...it's a broken sword. The last person to use it was Elendil, and so it's always going to be 'Elendil's sword' to the Dunedain.
I agree it's a given and Elrond even nods to this in the Council of Elrond. Aragorn as you mention knows enough to say Telchar wrought the blade, but he still calls it Elendil's sword. I think we should leave Elendil as the greatest and most famous wielder of the blade, though I am not sure you can top killing Sauron. Not even killing Gothmog is as impressive as slaying Sauron.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
I think I like the notion that Galadriel, through circumstance, never once saw the sword of Elendil unsheathed until the Fellowship got to Lothlorien. And then when it turns out it was her late brother's sword (assuming we go that way), she can craft a sheath for it herself. It's a gesture that means more to her than the Fellowship ever learns.
 

cellardur

Active Member
I think I like the notion that Galadriel, through circumstance, never once saw the sword of Elendil unsheathed until the Fellowship got to Lothlorien. And then when it turns out it was her late brother's sword (assuming we go that way), she can craft a sheath for it herself. It's a gesture that means more to her than the Fellowship ever learns.
This just seems highly unlikely. Galadriel is likely to ask Celeborn or Elrond how the second last descendant (at the time anyway) of Finarfin died. She is going to know about Narsil. It seems very, very unlikely neither Celeborn, Cirdan or Elrond will mention to her that it was her brother's sword.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Yes I like this idea.

Finarfin's children do seem to visit Doriath on a fairly regular basis. True it may not have come up in conversation, but if it was a special gift then more than likely it would have. Galadriel was also probably the regent left in charge during the Last Alliace. Meaning she probably met Elendil well. Depending on what history we give Galadriel, she almost certainly has to be in Lindon during the Elvish wars with Sauron. Once again this means it is highly likely she met some of the Lords of Andunie. That apart, Galadriel must have taken Anduril, when she had the special sheath made for it.

I agree it's a given and Elrond even nods to this in the Council of Elrond. Aragorn as you mention knows enough to say Telchar wrought the blade, but he still calls it Elendil's sword. I think we should leave Elendil as the greatest and most famous wielder of the blade, though I am not sure you can top killing Sauron. Not even killing Gothmog is as impressive as slaying Sauron.
Well, Aegnor is a mere footnote in the published Silmarillion. The only mention I can remember there apart from being Finarfin’s son is of him being KIA in the Dagor Bragollach.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Yes I like this idea.

Finarfin's children do seem to visit Doriath on a fairly regular basis. True it may not have come up in conversation, but if it was a special gift then more than likely it would have. Galadriel was also probably the regent left in charge during the Last Alliace. Meaning she probably met Elendil well. Depending on what history we give Galadriel, she almost certainly has to be in Lindon during the Elvish wars with Sauron. Once again this means it is highly likely she met some of the Lords of Andunie. That apart, Galadriel must have taken Anduril, when she had the special sheath made for it.

I agree it's a given and Elrond even nods to this in the Council of Elrond. Aragorn as you mention knows enough to say Telchar wrought the blade, but he still calls it Elendil's sword. I think we should leave Elendil as the greatest and most famous wielder of the blade, though I am not sure you can top killing Sauron. Not even killing Gothmog is as impressive as slaying Sauron.
To add on to my earlier post, Elendil is a more famous person than Aegnor. He was a King, Aegnor was a lord, lower on the totem pole than Elendil. He could be a less-famous user of the blade. He could kill a Balrog, doesn't have to be Gothmog, and it kills him too.
The problem is Narsil has been in the hands of the greatest loremaster in Arda. If anyone would know the history of Narsil it would be Elrond. It's also well known to Galadriel, who would recognise her brother's sword.

I agree I don't think the sword should be used in the king slaying and I like the idea of Maedhros requesting the sword, but I now really love the idea of the sword not being used. I wouldn't even mind the idea of Maedhros commissioning it and planning to give it to Fingon as a victory gift. Fingon dying could mean the sword was taken by his son, if we go down that Gil-galad route (which I am against).
We still haven't figured out whose son Gil-galad is, Fingon or Orodreth.

I would just prefer that Narsil is used at some point, not gathering dust when swords are needed. Nobody needs to say that Aegnor used it or not.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
To be clear, no one is suggesting that Elrond or Galadriel don't know the origin of Narsil. What is being suggested is that the Numenoreans are unaware, and that the Dunedain consider Elendil to be the most important/famous wielder, and thus refer to Narsil as the sword of Elendil.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
To be clear, no one is suggesting that Elrond or Galadriel don't know the origin of Narsil. What is being suggested is that the Numenoreans are unaware, and that the Dunedain consider Elendil to be the most important/famous wielder, and thus refer to Narsil as the sword of Elendil.
I say that we can hold true to that since Aegnor is, comparatively, a footnote in history. In the published Silmarillion, I only remember him being mentioned, apart from being Finarfin's son, when he was KIA alongside Angrod in the Dagor Bragollach. He isn't as important a figure in lore as Elendil, who was a leader in Numenor, responsible for a mass exodus of the Faithful before the Fall, and brought Sauron down before he died.
 

cellardur

Active Member
To add on to my earlier post, Elendil is a more famous person than Aegnor. He was a King, Aegnor was a lord, lower on the totem pole than Elendil. He could be a less-famous user of the blade. He could kill a Balrog, doesn't have to be Gothmog, and it kills him too.
I thought it was agreed that nobody kills a Balrog until the fall of Gondolin?

I think ownership of the sword is not just, who is a king or not, but who was the first to use the blade. I am sure the Numenorean kings probably used Aranruth more than Thingol, but it will be forever known as Thingol's sword.
We still haven't figured out whose son Gil-galad is, Fingon or Orodreth.

I would just prefer that Narsil is used at some point, not gathering dust when swords are needed. Nobody needs to say that Aegnor used it or not.
Narsil is a sword that has a history of gathering dust until someone special comes to use it. Narsil being kept until Elendil, picks it up would in keeping with it's later history.
To be clear, no one is suggesting that Elrond or Galadriel don't know the origin of Narsil. What is being suggested is that the Numenoreans are unaware, and that the Dunedain consider Elendil to be the most important/famous wielder, and thus refer to Narsil as the sword of Elendil.
I don't think it has even been decided if Narsil will ever be in Numenor or pass down to Gil-galad. The Numenoreans were very big on their ancestry and knew all about their family trees and heirlooms.

It's very possible Elrond would see no reason to mention it. I think there's no need for him to address it, but it's hard for Galadriel not to mention her brother once used the sword or for Gil-galad not to mention it was his great uncle's sword.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I thought it was agreed that nobody kills a Balrog until the fall of Gondolin?

I think ownership of the sword is not just, who is a king or not, but who was the first to use the blade. I am sure the Numenorean kings probably used Aranruth more than Thingol, but it will be forever known as Thingol's sword.

Narsil is a sword that has a history of gathering dust until someone special comes to use it. Narsil being kept until Elendil, picks it up would in keeping with it's later history.

It's very possible Elrond would see no reason to mention it. I think there's no need for him to address it, but it's hard for Galadriel not to mention her brother once used the sword or for Gil-galad not to mention it was his great uncle's sword.
I think we've had at least one Balrog killed in the War of the Powers in Season 1, but don't quote me on that.

Turin is remembered more than Eol or Beleg, and he wasn't the first to wield Anglachel/Gurthang.

I mean that Narsil should be used at a point when it needs to be used, like war. Doesn't make sense to not be used when it is needed.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I still prefer the story we worked out in the last session, with Aegnor. And I would prefer the sword to be used in the First Age, not just an unused mantle-piece.

The reason I suggested for Maedhros giving something to Aegnor is as a gesture as part of trying to reconcile with the House of Finarfin, in addition to the House of Fingolfin.

@cellardur , the suggestion is that a Balrog kills Aegnor, and maybe he kills it in return.


Corey's suggestion of giving it to Andreth doesn't make sense for a couple reasons. Firstly, Aegnor made a point to ignore Andreth and convince her that he didn't love her. I can't see why he would give her any gifts, when he wouldn't even tell her he loved her. The larger question is how it gets from Andreth to anyone, especially if we use Ange1's suggestion that Aegnor witnesses Andreth's death before he goes into battle. I like Ange1's suggested story and want to use it.

Marie suggested that Emeldir recovers it from Aegnor's death site in a brave deed, and carries it to Dor-Lomin (which is where she canonically ended up). Or she could give it to a relative who goes to Brethil. In D0r-Lomin it could be either hidden in a very secret place to protect it from Easterlings, or else wielded by one of the Edain who hide in the hills as outlaws after the Nirnaeth, and later follow Hurin south. Those guys presumably ended up at the Havens of Sirion. But, sending it to Brethil has the advantage of making it easier to keep it from ending up in the Haudh-en-Dengin, where I'd expect a sword of Dor-Lomin to end up.


I don't like having it be a sword owned by Gil-galad that he gave to Elendil, because if that was its history, it would have been mentioned in the LotR. It wasn't mentioned in the LotR, so I think we can't have that happen. I also strongly want Gil-galad to be Orodreth's son, not Fingon's son. On the other hand, I already suggested Gil-galad should tell Elendil the sword was his great-uncle's.
 

cellardur

Active Member
I think we've had at least one Balrog killed in the War of the Powers in Season 1, but don't quote me on that.

Turin is remembered more than Eol or Beleg, and he wasn't the first to wield Anglachel/Gurthang.

I mean that Narsil should be used at a point when it needs to be used, like war. Doesn't make sense to not be used when it is needed.
Eol forged the sword, but I don't think he ever claimed it as his to wield. The same way Telchar does no claim Narsil. In the case of Anglachel the sword itself acknowledges that Beren is its master.
I still prefer the story we worked out in the last session, with Aegnor. And I would prefer the sword to be used in the First Age, not just an unused mantle-piece.

The reason I suggested for Maedhros giving something to Aegnor is as a gesture as part of trying to reconcile with the House of Finarfin, in addition to the House of Fingolfin.

@cellardur , the suggestion is that a Balrog kills Aegnor, and maybe he kills it in return.


Corey's suggestion of giving it to Andreth doesn't make sense for a couple reasons. Firstly, Aegnor made a point to ignore Andreth and convince her that he didn't love her. I can't see why he would give her any gifts, when he wouldn't even tell her he loved her. The larger question is how it gets from Andreth to anyone, especially if we use Ange1's suggestion that Aegnor witnesses Andreth's death before he goes into battle. I like Ange1's suggested story and want to use it.

Marie suggested that Emeldir recovers it from Aegnor's death site in a brave deed, and carries it to Dor-Lomin (which is where she canonically ended up). Or she could give it to a relative who goes to Brethil. In D0r-Lomin it could be either hidden in a very secret place to protect it from Easterlings, or else wielded by one of the Edain who hide in the hills as outlaws after the Nirnaeth, and later follow Hurin south. Those guys presumably ended up at the Havens of Sirion. But, sending it to Brethil has the advantage of making it easier to keep it from ending up in the Haudh-en-Dengin, where I'd expect a sword of Dor-Lomin to end up.


I don't like having it be a sword owned by Gil-galad that he gave to Elendil, because if that was its history, it would have been mentioned in the LotR. It wasn't mentioned in the LotR, so I think we can't have that happen. I also strongly want Gil-galad to be Orodreth's son, not Fingon's son. On the other hand, I already suggested Gil-galad should tell Elendil the sword was his great-uncle's.
I will address the Balrog issue first. I don't think we should see anyone lesser than one of the great maiar killing a Balrog until the Fall of Gondolin. Even in the earliest versions, when Balrogs were much lesser than they would become, none had been killed by Elves until Gondolin. Aegnor can die fighting a Balrog, but I think the impact of Balrogs dying in Gondolin needs to shock the audience and give more weight to the captains, most notably Glorfindel. Even then the Elf Lords die, I think the only person who should buck the trend and kill a Balrog without dying is Earendil.

As for the bolded did he? I haven't read the conversation for a while, but thought he just felt it was not suitable for them to get married since he had a destiny with death. Finrod tells her that Aegnor, will never marry again and go on loving her for as long as Arda last.

I am with you on Gil-galad should be Orodreth's son.

Ultimately I guess the sword being originally Aegnor's could work, but Galadriel should mention it to Aragorn in our version, as should Gil-galad to Elendil.

I am pretty against Aegnor killing a Balrog though.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Eol forged the sword, but I don't think he ever claimed it as his to wield. The same way Telchar does no claim Narsil. In the case of Anglachel the sword itself acknowledges that Beren is its master.

I will address the Balrog issue first. I don't think we should see anyone lesser than one of the great maiar killing a Balrog until the Fall of Gondolin. Even in the earliest versions, when Balrogs were much lesser than they would become, none had been killed by Elves until Gondolin. Aegnor can die fighting a Balrog, but I think the impact of Balrogs dying in Gondolin needs to shock the audience and give more weight to the captains, most notably Glorfindel. Even then the Elf Lords die, I think the only person who should buck the trend and kill a Balrog without dying is Earendil.

As for the bolded did he? I haven't read the conversation for a while, but thought he just felt it was not suitable for them to get married since he had a destiny with death. Finrod tells her that Aegnor, will never marry again and go on loving her for as long as Arda last.

I am with you on Gil-galad should be Orodreth's son.

Ultimately I guess the sword being originally Aegnor's could work, but Galadriel should mention it to Aragorn in our version, as should Gil-galad to Elendil.

I am pretty against Aegnor killing a Balrog though.
Well, this is why I had suggested Aegnor flying into a rage, slaughtering a bunch of Orcs and earning a mutual kill against a Balrog; nobody likes to talk about it the same way nobody sings of Fingolfin’s duel with Morgoth. A company of angry Elves at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (the Elves from Nargothrond led by Gwindor) slew hundreds of Orcs (including a decoy army?) and got all the way to beating on the doors of Angband before they were all killed except for Gwindor, who was captured.
 
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